Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

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Doctor.
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Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:26 pm

I can't help but feel like Toriyama keeps portraying Goku's morality inconsistently.

While he was a kid, Goku killed Red Ribbon Army soldiers, (presumably killed) Tao Pai Pai, Piccolo Daimao's children and Piccolo Daimao himself without any kind of remorse. When he grew up and trained with Kami, he started sparing his opponents, like Piccolo and Vegeta. Fair enough, you can say that his Saiyan instincts are finally taking over him or that Kami influenced him (even though the story never hints towards this). But even though he spared Piccolo and Vegeta out of a selfish desire to fight them again, he has also tried to spare opponents out of pure kindness. He tried to spare Raditz even though he hated him, he tried to spare the Ginyus despite them being unable to provide him a challenge in the future and he tried to spare Freeza after telling him he never wanted to see him again.

After Freeza betrays him, he becomes a bit more ruthless and he never tries to spare his opponents again. He repeatedly told Gohan to kill Cell. He said he'd kill Dabra himself. He killed Yakon without even offering the guy a chance to surrender. And he killed Boo, of course. Again, you can justify this change by saying that he became less innocent and naive after Freeza betrayed his good will (despite, once again, the story never hinting towards this development in the character's psyche).

But it's when we come to modern material that Goku's morality becomes inconsistent once again. He tried to spare Freeza again despite the fact that he should have (and did, in fact, according to the manga) learned his lesson back in the Freeza arc to stop giving chances to bad guys who will just backstab you (in Super he even tells Vegeta there was no need to kill Ginyu). Isn't this incredibly inconsistent with his post-Namek arc portrayal? Sure, Goku later when Whis rewinds time learns his lesson, but... that's the exact same lesson he learned back in the Freeza arc.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Gog » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:28 pm

Goku's morality to sparing people is a shit show. In fact it extends back to the buu saga, or the android/cell saga, where he was at his dumbest.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Nejishiki » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:38 pm

In all fairness, despite Goku relaxing himself, he didn't turn his back against Freeza. It was Sorbet who got him. He was attentive with Freeza's actions, unlike at Namek. From his perspective, he saw a guy who lost the will to fight, utterly defeated. Goku felt he was in control of the situation so I think that's why he told Freeza to come back. Consider those factors & Freeza's quick growth & I think it's possible he was giving him a chance to master Golden for a final fight. It parallels with their bout in Namek, too.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:19 pm

Goku and killing in Super is very...odd. I feel like his actions regarding killing make a lot of sense in the original manga and serve the purpose of defining his character at different moments whether that be ruthlessness in the Red Ribbon Army arc, kindness after his training with Kami, or selfishness as seen in his battle with Vegeta. I think all these moments make Goku a character with a great amount of depth.

Super is very inconsistent in that regard. I feel like Android and Boo era Goku recognized immediate threats pretty well. Sure, he didn't want to find Gero before the androids showed up, but he also wasn't an immddiate danger in the moment. Freeza in RoF is an immediate danger and he's just seen proof of how strong Freeza can get in just four months, it's very strange his gut reaction is to spare him but maybe this is just a display of hubris on his part.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:26 pm

Nejishiki wrote:It parallels with their bout in Namek, too.
That's why I find it awful. Goku should have learned his lesson back on Namek. And he apparently did, considering how he treats his foes after Freeza.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:14 pm

Goku's morality in general is rather difficult to get a handle on, in all honesty. While he certainly means well, he's definitely made some rather questionable decisions, and his aversion to Vegeta killing members of the Ginyu force frankly seemed pretty hypocritical.

Then again, I would say that Goku's morally questionable actions are nothing compared to the actions of many of his friends. Chi-Chi basically tricked Goku into marrying her, Bulma has done some pretty questionable things herself(mostly in the early parts of the series), Roshi displays the kind of behavior that would qualify as sexual harassment in the real world, Oolong flat-out tried to rape Bulma, and Vegeta not only spent a good chunk of his life wiping out entire races, but he also allowed himself to become Babidi's slave, and then proceeded to kill several people at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

I guess morally sound protagonists in general aren't really a strong point in the Dragon Ball series, outside of characters like Gohan and Future Trunks.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Puto » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:44 am

For what it's worth, the situation with Yakon is a bit different vs. the situation with Freeza. It's one thing to kill an enemy in one shot in the middle of a fight, it's another thing to do it when the enemy is already down on their knees and helpless.
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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Nejishiki » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:16 am

Doctor. wrote:
Nejishiki wrote:It parallels with their bout in Namek, too.
That's why I find it awful. Goku should have learned his lesson back on Namek. And he apparently did, considering how he treats his foes after Freeza.
That's what I acknowledged. Goku kept an eye on Freeza that time as opposed to walking off on him twice as he did on Namek. He gathered that Freeza was out of options & felt that he wasn't in danger anymore. He strengthened his naivete since last time but remained careless of outside interference. There's a difference in killing somebody defenseless & killing somebody resisting. Goku is capable of accessing his current situation to make decisions. Cell was a persistent threat, Yakon & Dabra were obstacles, & Freeza was somebody who lost his will to act. They all warrant different reactions. Besides, this is the second time he's met Freeza, isn't it? If he reenacted killing him on Earth as he did in an alternate reality, it's likely he'd be extremely opposed to sparing him a third time. That was his attitude with dispatching Boo with the Super Genki Dama. Through his current feelings, they were beyond help.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:15 pm

Nejishiki wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Nejishiki wrote:It parallels with their bout in Namek, too.
That's why I find it awful. Goku should have learned his lesson back on Namek. And he apparently did, considering how he treats his foes after Freeza.
That's what I acknowledged. Goku kept an eye on Freeza that time as opposed to walking off on him twice as he did on Namek. He gathered that Freeza was out of options & felt that he wasn't in danger anymore. He strengthened his naivete since last time but remained careless of outside interference. There's a difference in killing somebody defenseless & killing somebody resisting. Goku is capable of accessing his current situation to make decisions. Cell was a persistent threat, Yakon & Dabra were obstacles, & Freeza was somebody who lost his will to act. They all warrant different reactions. Besides, this is the second time he's met Freeza, isn't it? If he reenacted killing him on Earth as he did in an alternate reality, it's likely he'd be extremely opposed to sparing him a third time. That was his attitude with dispatching Boo with the Super Genki Dama. Through his current feelings, they were beyond help.
Though Goku himself didn't face him, Frieza did come back to Earth where he was quickly dispatched by Trunks, so F marks the third time Frieza's tried to kill Goku and his friends, this time he came back despite being killed so Goku really should have realized Frieza was beyond redemption.

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by successoroffate » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:51 pm

Red Ribbon army members aside...
From my perspective, Goku didn't want to kill Freeza because of the circumstances near the end. Freeza cutting himself in half is not what Goku has in mind as winning. I don't know if the whole "Don't Kill" thing applies to non humans/saiyans.
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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by Muffin Man » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:10 pm

Goku's attitude toward killing in the original manga was pretty straightforward.

Step 1: Goku starts out oblivious to the gravity of killing (and thus kills enemies indiscriminately).

Step 2: Goku learns over time that killing is bad (and thus goes to great lengths to avoid killing altogether),

Step 3: Freeza finally forces Goku's hand, and Goku learns that sometimes killing is necessary (so he begins to kill-or attempt to kill, in Cell's case--his enemies once again but always after they've had an opportunity to surrender or when he had no other choice, and in Buu's case he even requests that he be reincarnated as a human so he could have a second chance at life).


As for the post Z stuff....he's pretty much reverted to Step 1 and treats everything like a huge game (except for when he randomly doesn't).

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Re: Goku's inconsistent characterization in regards to killing

Post by SaiyanZ » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:10 am

Well, I think in the case of Raditz, he was OK with allowing him to be killed because he wasn't the one who was doing the deed, it was Piccolo. Then again, putting him in a Full Nelson aids him in that, so he's "guilty" of it too. Same with the Genki Dama that he gave to Krillin. I find it most fascinating when he transforms into a SSj, because it was hardening his heart and giving into more Saiyan instincts and anger ofc that allowed him to transform, but he still retains some humanity of his pre-SSj self, like when he comments on how the Saiyans' heartlessness got them killed and when he gives Freeza bit of ki (and you visibly see it on his face that he's struggling with the decision). Then, he gets over all that when he blasts Freeza, although reluctantly as we see on his face afterwards. After that, he can kill without much conscience, which is why I think FnF is such a bad movie because it shits on all of that by having Goku spare him, even if it wasn't out of kindness and instead because of a fight.
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