Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

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Re: Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:12 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:No. I used the term "true reveal" because I wanted to distinguish between the out-of-universe and the in-universe. Because out-of-universe a retcon is ALWAYS a contradiction. As I said, Goku in the Red Ribbon Arc is not an alien. He wasn't in 1986. He isn't now. Nothing about that story has been altered. However, a later story introduces the plot point that he's always been an alien. That retroactively affects the fact that he is not an alien in those stories. That is a contradiction. It takes a fact and changes it. However, in-universe, through a lucky break, it does not directly contradict any information already presented in the story. Therefore, it makes it easier to accept this change as having always been a part of the universe.

In this case, I felt "reveal" was going to get too confusing without clarification. Because in-universe, Raditz telling Goku his origin is a reveal. It's information we accept that has always existed now being revealed to the characters. However, in real life, it is not a reveal. It is not information the author came up with only to hide from us until the time is right. He's not revealing anything to us. It's something he made up later and added to the story.

That the Tom Riddle diary in Harry Potter is said to be a horcrux is a true reveal. It's information the author was actually concealing and revealing to us. It's not a retcon because it was information that always existed in the author's mind and, therefore, in the world of the story. Goku becoming an alien is a retcon because, in real life, he literally does become an alien partway through life. We just delude ourselves otherwise for the sake of the story.
Would you count Kami & Piccolo being aliens as a reveal or a retcon? I know we're teased with it through Jrs and Kami's conversation but Daimao existed for a good while before Kami did so its entirely possible the alien angle was a later addition too.
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Re: Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:18 pm

All it means is that something was changed. It was. You can't deny that.
It's a specific type of change, otherwise people would just use "change". Shake your head all you want, I think you're incorrect about this issue.
Don't try to muddy the issue by acting like it's something to be offended by.
And I wish you would understand that if Retcon just meant change, you wouldn't need a new term. It is a change, but a type of change. Now, it doesn't need to be a contradiction per say. I would consider Vegeta being a prince to be a retcon because that's a big part of the character and how he views himself and it's clear that Toriyama came up with it after the Saiyan arc. Had he always known that fact, some character would've said it prior to the Freeza arc.

Lastly, Goku was not written any different after he was stated to be an alien.
However, in real life, it is not a reveal. It is not information the author came up with only to hide from us until the time is right. He's not revealing anything to us. It's something he made up later and added to the story.
Absolutely wrong. When the author came up with this information is irrelevant otherwise anything not initially thought up that pertains to backstory is a retcon.
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Re: Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:42 pm

ABED wrote:It's a specific type of change, otherwise people would just use "change". Shake your head all you want, I think you're incorrect about this issue.
Of course it's a specific type of change. That's what I've been saying all along! It is a retroactive change. I really don't see what's so hard about this. It's right there in the name. Everything you need to know about it is right there in the word. I mean, it's the same thing with "underpants." It's a word made of two other words that perfect describes what it is. And for some reason, you guys are insisting it's not really underpants unless hot sauce is involved! It's just a complete non-sequitur to me what you're even arguing about.
Lastly, Goku was not written any different after he was stated to be an alien.
Not that it's really relevant to this discussion, but... are you sure you've seen Dragon Ball before? So many so-called "Saiyan" traits are amped up in Goku over the course of the series that simply were not there before. That really doesn't matter because even if you could reconcile Goku as being completely consistent, you're ignoring the subtext of the situation. That's what's at stake here. Subtext is key to writing, even if it's something the audience doesn't see or can choose to ignore to allow retcons in. See the point about Piccolo below.
However, in real life, it is not a reveal. It is not information the author came up with only to hide from us until the time is right. He's not revealing anything to us. It's something he made up later and added to the story.
Absolutely wrong. When the author came up with this information is irrelevant otherwise anything not initially thought up that pertains to backstory is a retcon.
Ding, ding, ding! Bingo! That's what a retcon is! Give this man a new car! I really can't fathom why the bolded information is such a distasteful idea to you. But I am genuinely curious why you find what the author writes and when he writes it to be irrelevant when they are at the very core of all of these types of terms.
ekrolo2 wrote:Would you count Kami & Piccolo being aliens as a reveal or a retcon? I know we're teased with it through Jrs and Kami's conversation but Daimao existed for a good while before Kami did so its entirely possible the alien angle was a later addition too.
That's actually a very good question and a very good example. I consider it both at different points in the series. Toriyama admits Piccolo was not originally intended to be an alien and that he came up with it around the time Kami was introduced. As such, you can see a stark difference in how the character is written. When Shen and Piccolo talk in an alien language to each other in the Budoukai, this new information is now informing their actions and the way they are being written. Even though it hasn't been revealed to us, it is being used to inform the writing. Prior to that, though, Piccolo is being written solely as a native of earth. So the alien thing is a retcon, since it was added later. However, it is also used as a reveal because Toriyama uses it as foreshadowing once he has established it, despite not having put it into the explicit text.
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Re: Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:54 pm

Ding, ding, ding! Bingo! That's what a retcon is! Give this man a new car! I really can't fathom why the bolded information is such a distasteful idea to you. But I am genuinely curious why you find what the author writes and when he writes it to be irrelevant when they are at the very core of all of these types of terms.
Just flat out wrong. It's not a matter of being distasteful, it's a matter of you just being wrong. If it was what you say it is, there would be no need for a new term. How is when the author creates something like this relevant to the concept? A retcon changes something that was established either implicitly or implicitly. Maybe I don't have an exact definition, but yours is so broad that it has no use. It's not a synonym for "change".
So many so-called "Saiyan" traits are amped up in Goku over the course of the series that simply were not there before.
Yes I have seen DB before and no, he is the same exact character. His traits are in no way amped up. He's still the battle hungry, food loving, manchild he always was.

And your It's a change made to the past, it's all in the name argument falls flat because that could still apply to a reveal that the author had intended all along. Your definition isn't specific enough. It's useful to look up the origin of the term.

Here's a retcon: In That 70's Show, Donna had a sister in an early episode and later is said to be an only child. It's not merely a contradiction, they flat out wrote the rest of the series as if her sister was never there. Also, in Buffy, Spike says Angel was his sire, but we later learn that Drusilla sired him.
Not a retcon: In Buffy, Spike was revealed in a season 5 episode to be an uppercrust Englishman who was a terrible poet and a mama's boy.

In the case of DB, I agree that the Piccolo is an alien reveal is a retcon because we were told that Piccolo Daimao is a demon. Later it's revealed that he's the evil half of Kami incarnate. Being an alien isn't a contradiction but it does change his origins. Goku's origins were never stated. It's just a reveal.

Now that I think of it, this is probably better discussed in another thread.
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Re: Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

Post by rereboy » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:23 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:That retroactively affects the fact that he is not an alien in those stories. That is a contradiction. It takes a fact and changes it.
There's no functional difference between that situation and a reveal that was planned from the start. A reveal planned from the start would still make the reader be under the assumption that Goku was human just to reveal later that he is an alien. In other words, in a reveal that was planned from the start, the older info would still be expanded by the new info.

Regardless of what the author had in mind at the start, that's still exactly what happened in Dragon Ball. We were under the impression that Goku was human, only to later be revealed that he is an alien. That info merely expanded and was added to the previous info, like a reveal planned from the start would do.

And, honestly, if, in that situation, there's no practical, functional difference between the two terms, and if, in that situation, there's only a theoretical out-of-universe difference between the two terms regarding what the author had planned in advance, I rather just call it a "reveal" all the same and use the term "retcon" for when there's actually a practical, functional difference (aka when there's actually inconsistencies and contradictions originated by the new info, and not merely added or expanded info).

You are free to use whatever term you like, of course, but, like I said, in that situation, without a practical, functional distinction from a reveal, I see no point in not using that term.

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Re: Is there anyone that stopped or decide not to watch Super?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:20 pm

I... I just can't. I honestly can't. I mean... geez, the definition is in the very word. It doesn't get any simpler than that. It really doesn't. So I'm out. This is my last word in this debate. I've hijacked this thread long enough, and for that I apologize. But I never apologize for trying to bring a little more accuracy into the world. I will just leave with a few dictionary definitions I found online. Note that not a single one of them insists that a contradiction must take place for it to count.

Wiktionary: "A situation, in a soap opera or similar serial fiction, in which a new storyline explains or changes a previous event or attaches a new significance to it."

Dictionary.com: "a subsequent revision of an established story in film, TV, video games, or comics"

Cambridge Dictionary: "a piece of new information given in a film, television series, etc. that changes, or gives a different way of understanding, what has gone before. Retcon is short for 'Retroactive Continuity'."

Google Search: "(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

The only one of those you even might be able to interpret as strictly meaning a contradiction is the dictionary.com definition. However, if you are to assume that all four are valid definitions, then it means that interpretation simply cannot apply, as the other three all make it explicitly clear that a contradiction is only one possible outcome of the same event.

To boil it down, all you need to do is ask two questions:

1. Is it establishing continuity?
2. Does it apply retroactively?

If you can answer "yes" to both of those questions, then it is a retcon. Plain and simple. Sigh. Goodnight, everybody!
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