Thoughts on Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Vegeta isn't supposed to sound like what Drummond makes him sound like. He makes him sound raspy and cheesy.

That was a first take at Vegeta in an English dub of Z, back when good direction and accurate scripts were barely existent. Even then, Drummond had made noticeable improvements to his Vegeta during the Namek portion in comparison to his initial debut.

Ocean Dub is terrible, even the movies are just serviceable.

Those first 3 films dubbed by Ocean are seen by many, myself included, as a great barometer of what an accurate, and well-acted dub for Z, or any DB series, could've been. As far as English dubs go for DB, I've seen almost-entirely widespread praise go to those films. Your comment about those movies -- being an opinion that I respect and all -- is a rare exception. Admittedly, I can understand why some people aren't taken by the delivery of Kelamis' Goku (although I'm one that appreciates the energy/passion in his acting once he got that role).

[Bansho64]

I'll never understand the double standard people have with loving the Ocean Dub but hating the Funi dub. I thought Kanzenshuu would be that one place where people understand but I guess nostalgia creeps here sometimes too.

I have a lot of issues with your whole post in general, but this particular tidbit really stood out. Mainly because I think using nostalgia as a reason for why the majority of us here like the Ocean dub is a load of crap. Especially since many of us here didn't even grow up with it. I mean, come on.

As for the double standard stuff, I hardly think that's the case. The majority of us here criticize the script and other things heavily. The voices and the acting are what most of us focus mainly on.

[LordCrumb]

How can he be considered 'Definitive' when he didn't even complete the series.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Excluding that short portion of the Freeza arc, Drummond most certainly finished Z. It's what we had here in the UK, along with McNeil and the rest of the crew... and horrendous recycled music from various other cartoons!

Do you mean the various other products?

The Android saga was never dubbed as far as i'm aware.

There are some actors that are considered the definitive portrayals of a particular character even if they did only one movie as that said character. Heck, not everyone considers Kevin Conroy to be the definitive Batman voice despite him voicing Batman more times than any other actor.

What's your problem? Are you one of those Funimation in-house dub fans that get mad over the fact that someone prefers the Ocean voice actors to your precious Funimation voice actors? If so, that's pretty immature of you. And what's wrong with someone liking the B tracks? Can you explain me that?

wow, I really must have hit the ol' Drummond Button on this one.

Did I call anyone names here? nope. don't start doing that please.

I find it perfectly ok for someone to like Drummond over Sabat, personally I just don't see why Sabat is considered the lesser of the two, when he put more heart and soul into the character than anyone before him. Am I not entitled to my opinions too? the elitist type responses here are astounding. I get criticized for my comments, yet all of the other ones seem to just get passes. It's all very hypocritical.

[Ajay]

The Android saga was never dubbed as far as i'm aware.

It was. They took back over from Funi in many countries shortly after Trunks kills Freeza, from what I recall.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

How can he be considered 'Definitive' when he didn't even complete the series.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Excluding that short portion of the Freeza arc, Drummond most certainly finished Z. It's what we had here in the UK, along with McNeil and the rest of the crew... and horrendous recycled music from various other cartoons!

Do you mean the various other products?

And if we're counting the Ocean Kai dub there's little reason to believe Drummond didn't cover that part of the series.

Also, without the availability as said dub to use as a reference I don't think its fair to say whether Drummond or Sabat is the "definitive" English Vegeta because, unlike Sabat, we theoretically haven't seen Drummond at his best.

[8000 Saiyan]

How can he be considered 'Definitive' when he didn't even complete the series.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Excluding that short portion of the Freeza arc, Drummond most certainly finished Z. It's what we had here in the UK, along with McNeil and the rest of the crew... and horrendous recycled music from various other cartoons!

Do you mean the various other products?

The Android saga was never dubbed as far as i'm aware.

There are some actors that are considered the definitive portrayals of a particular character even if they did only one movie as that said character. Heck, not everyone considers Kevin Conroy to be the definitive Batman voice despite him voicing Batman more times than any other actor.

What's your problem? Are you one of those Funimation in-house dub fans that get mad over the fact that someone prefers the Ocean voice actors to your precious Funimation voice actors? If so, that's pretty immature of you. And what's wrong with someone liking the B tracks? Can you explain me that?

wow, I really must have hit the ol' Drummond Button on this one.

Did I call anyone names here? nope. don't start doing that please.

I find it perfectly ok for someone to like Drummond over Sabat, personally I just don't see why Sabat is considered the lesser of the two, when he put more heart and soul into the character than anyone before him. Am I not entitled to my opinions too? the elitist type responses here are astounding. I get criticized for my comments, yet all of the other ones seem to just get passes. It's all very hypocritical.

Of course you didn't call anyone names. What do you think we are, dense?

Personally, Sabat didn't put any heart and soul into Vegeta for me until Kai. Using a deep and gravelly voice and constantly sounding like he's taking a dump just made his acting sound forced. To me, Drummond showed more heart and soul, particularly in his screams.

Like all Kanzenshuuers, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. Elitist responses you say? None of the responses that criticize your comments are elitist in any way. Oh, and by the way, while you say you find perfectly ok to someone to prefer Drummond, I found another post where you seem to have a problem over the fact that some people prefer the Ocean dub over the Funimation dub:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14416&hilit=generi ... start=2480

How hypocritical and immature of you. Can't stand the fact that people prefer the Ocean dub over the Funimation dub? Try to act more mature and be more accepting of other opinions. If so, I'll respect you a lot more.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I wonder whose idea it was to take it that high and raspy.

Probably the voice director.

It wasn't the voice director. The producers originally told him that Vegeta was a complete and evil psychopath, so that's how he came up with that voice.

Essentially all the issue is, is FUNi's ignorance of the original audio for their dubs at the time. This extended to YYH to some extent, as well. Overall, I think any complaints about vocal differences (up to & including today) is due to the fact that FUNi isn't related to the actual producers of the show (the way that Aniplex, Bandai, Viz, & Geneon are), & there's only a light investment from Toei mainly pertaining to "dont get too off-the-wall with the script". In most stories of dub production that I have heard, there's at least some reference made to the original-language version as well. Either the voice &/or casting directors are shown it, &/or the actual dub VAs are shown it to guide their understanding of the character. Marvel has this (for their English versions I mean) as well.

* In episode 7 of Seiyu's Life, the topic is dubbing, & interestingly the Japanese dubbers sit together in a room with separate headphones & all dub to the picture as the show is playing. It's very interesting & I think if dubs were bigger here, we'd probably do that as well.

WIth FUNi, they tend to have the freedom to take liberties, & dont really have the incentive to pay too much attention to the voices; they tend to go more for impressions when picking up from old dubs, I think probably because of the language barrier, foreign voices tend not to leave as much of an impression on people, much as that gets at me occasionally.

Anyway, back to the original point - the thing with the old DB dub is they didnt have the original audio (& it isnt like they were that interested in it regardless), & essentially zero creator contact, so they largely just did not get the show (even if some people involved wanted to be more accurate to the show).

[Forte224]

I'll never understand the double standard people have with loving the Ocean Dub but hating the Funi dub. I thought Kanzenshuu would be that one place where people understand but I guess nostalgia creeps here sometimes too.

I have a lot of issues with your whole post in general, but this particular tidbit really stood out. Mainly because I think using nostalgia as a reason for why the majority of us here like the Ocean dub is a load of crap. Especially since many of us here didn't even grow up with it. I mean, come on.

As for the double standard stuff, I hardly think that's the case. The majority of us here criticize the script and other things heavily. The voices and the acting are what most of us focus mainly on.

Sorry you don't like my post. I can't see how the Ocean voices can objectively be viewed as good. Vegeta and Piccolo are far too raspy and don't fit the characters, which is exactly the same crap people give the old Funi Vegeta and Piccolo. So I just don't get it. Once again, I don't like either of those dubs, but it's double standards like that that lead me to believe it's nostalgia

[ABED]

Again with the rasp. Some people have raspy voices. The problem isn't inherently rasp, but the forced rasp. Sabat has calmed it down over the years. Now it sounds real and meshes with the character. His early take on Piccolo wasn't so much raspy as it was gravelly. It's ultimately a matter of execution, so what might bother people about one performance could be good if delivered by another actor. I happen to think McNeil's performance absolutely fits the character. He can convey the demonic side of Piccolo as well as the avuncular side.

[Forte224]

Again with the rasp. Some people have raspy voices. The problem isn't inherently rasp, but the forced rasp. Sabat has calmed it down over the years. Now it sounds real and meshes with the character. His early take on Piccolo wasn't so much raspy as it was gravelly. It's ultimately a matter of execution, so what might bother people about one performance could be good if delivered by another actor.

Is rasp your trigger word or something? Yes, I and many others don't like rasp. To me it's a lazy and generic way to make a character sound tough and/or evil. It sounds lame. I don't like it and don't think McNeil fits at all. Can you accept this or will you defend it to the ends of the earth?

[8000 Saiyan]

Probably the voice director.

It wasn't the voice director. The producers originally told him that Vegeta was a complete and evil psychopath, so that's how he came up with that voice.

Essentially all the issue is, is FUNi's ignorance of the original audio for their dubs at the time. This extended to YYH to some extent, as well. Overall, I think any complaints about vocal differences (up to & including today) is due to the fact that FUNi isn't related to the actual producers of the show (the way that Aniplex, Bandai, Viz, & Geneon are), & there's only a light investment from Toei mainly pertaining to "dont get too off-the-wall with the script". In most stories of dub production that I have heard, there's at least some reference made to the original-language version as well. Either the voice &/or casting directors are shown it, &/or the actual dub VAs are shown it to guide their understanding of the character. Marvel has this (for their English versions I mean) as well.

* In episode 7 of Seiyu's Life, the topic is dubbing, & interestingly the Japanese dubbers sit together in a room with separate headphones & all dub to the picture as the show is playing. It's very interesting & I think if dubs were bigger here, we'd probably do that as well.

WIth FUNi, they tend to have the freedom to take liberties, & dont really have the incentive to pay too much attention to the voices; they tend to go more for impressions when picking up from old dubs, I think probably because of the language barrier, foreign voices tend not to leave as much of an impression on people, much as that gets at me occasionally.

Anyway, back to the original point - the thing with the old DB dub is they didnt have the original audio (& it isnt like they were that interested in it regardless), & essentially zero creator contact, so they largely just did not get the show (even if some people involved wanted to be more accurate to the show).

I think there were some interviews where they said they had the Japanese audio.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I think there were some interviews where they said they had the Japanese audio.

If you might possibly give me pointers to it, I'd love to hear it. I personally have only heard that was the case for Pioneer's & Bandai Namco's dubs (& I suspect it was the case for HG's dubs). I don't think FUNi, specifically, had them for their dubs, perhaps the Westwood dub didn't either but that's probably due to Kirb's rumor that they based it on FUNi's version. If Nitro or anyone with a special interest in Ocean-recorded DB dubs has an idea, please let me know.

[8000 Saiyan]

I think there were some interviews where they said they had the Japanese audio.

If you might possibly give me pointers to it, I'd love to hear it. I personally have only heard that was the case for Pioneer's & Bandai Namco's dubs (& I suspect it was the case for HG's dubs). I don't think FUNi, specifically, had them for their dubs, perhaps the Westwood dub didn't either but that's probably due to Kirb's rumor that they based it on FUNi's version. If Nitro or anyone with a special interest in Ocean-recorded DB dubs has an idea, please let me know.

In this interview, Kelamis said that he listened to the Japanese version during recordings of the show, so they probably did have the Japanese audio and translations during Season 3, but they didn't bother to use them.

http://animecauldron.com/dbzuncensored/ ... lamis.html

[ABED]

It's not my trigger word, but many take rasp to be something inherently bad or unnatural. Whether it's lazy or generic is entirely dependent on execution as it always is with the arts. My feeling from the tone of your posts is that you are angry about something. I just disagreed with you. Did I upset you? That wasn't my intention.

[Forte224]

It's not my trigger word, but many take rasp to be something inherently bad or unnatural. Whether it's lazy or generic is entirely dependent on execution as it always is with the arts. My feeling from the tone of your posts is that you are angry about something. I just disagreed with you. Did I upset you? That wasn't my intention.

We've had convos in the past about rasp/gruntiness and you never seem to let it be that I don't like it overall. Also I'm grumpy today, sorry

[ABED]

It's not my trigger word, but many take rasp to be something inherently bad or unnatural. Whether it's lazy or generic is entirely dependent on execution as it always is with the arts. My feeling from the tone of your posts is that you are angry about something. I just disagreed with you. Did I upset you? That wasn't my intention.

We've had convos in the past about rasp/gruntiness and you never seem to let it be that I don't like it overall. Also I'm grumpy today, sorry

Sorry, I can't keep track of whom I talk to all the time and the discussions don't ring a bell. Do you not like it in real life or is it just when it sounds fake?

[Robo4900]

I'll never understand the double standard people have with loving the Ocean Dub but hating the Funi dub. I thought Kanzenshuu would be that one place where people understand but I guess nostalgia creeps here sometimes too.

I find the exact opposite; everyone who actually enjoys the dubs love the Funi dub, and claim Faulconer is what made DBZ good, and that the show is "Supposed" to be really badass, and that it all went downhill with the Boo arc and GT. This means that, in their eyes, the Ocean dub is utter blasphemy.
This attitude seems a lot less prevalent here on Kanzenshuu, and in general, people seem to have a much more measured view on the various dubs.

I would say that one advantage the Ocean/Pioneer dub has over the in-house dub is that while it's heavily altered and censored...

The Ocean/Pioneer movie dubs are entirely uncensored.* Funimation's dubs of movies 1 and 2 actually used the same scripts, but with lines randomly changed to be more in line with Funimation's dubbing style at the time("Goku, this time I'm gonna finish you off for good!" becomes "Goku, this time I'm gonna wipe the mat with your face!").
For movie 3, Funimation actually used a modified version of the script used in the old Saban dub, so Pioneer's dub wipes the floor with Funimation's (Or perhaps, "Wipes the mat with its face") when it comes to that movie in particular.

*Although, in the Rock The Dragon box set, Funimation used the TV edits of all three; the first two had a bunch of visual censorship, and swapped out the OP/ED for "Rock The Dragon", and movie 3 was the Saban version

The "Funimation dub" on the other hand, while uncensored and arguably more accurate...just feels cheap. The new actors didn't have a ton of experience and for the most part, were trying to imitate the old voices. Yeah, it gradually got better, but it started off really rough. I think we still see some of the ramifications of those early days as far as the cast. While they've knocked it out of the park with more than a few voices recently, I feel like a lot of the core cast, while not bad, still leave a lot to be desired. Sabat's Piccolo still can't touch McNeil's for example...

Indeed. Really, I don't think any of the Funi voices were actually good until Kai. They were generally okay in the OG Dragon Ball series dub, but until Kai, they were all so poorly directed. Even when they actually had some production value and the actors had some experience in the Boo arc, GT, or the original series, the delivery was so flat.
The Ocean dub generally went in the other direction; they were over the top, but it gave the show a lot of fun; something the Funimation dub attempted to discard at every turn, in favour of more '90s edge.

In this interview, Kelamis said that he listened to the Japanese version during recordings of the show, so they probably did have the Japanese audio and translations during Season 3, but they didn't bother to use them.

http://animecauldron.com/dbzuncensored/ ... lamis.html

Funimation had the Japanese audio for all of DB, Z, GT, and the movies while they were dubbing(Albeit, in very poor quality). But, they were given scripts re-translated from Spanish, with pages missing, loads of completely incomprehensible lines, and in general, they just had a complete mess. Doing manual re-translations of the Japanese scripts would have cost too much money at the time(Although the Pioneer and Blue Water dubs both clearly opted to do this), so instead they'd just give the nonsense scripts to the script adapters, and tell them to just have at it. Sometimes, even the script adapters would be at a loss, and you'd get things like the "Cat loves food" scene.

[TheBigBoy]

Oh, I completely spaced the Pioneer movies! Yeah, the uncensored versions of those are wonderful. It's like, my platonic ideal of an English dub. I remember watching The World's Strongest dub on VHS around the time it came out and being impressed at how much better it was than what was airing on TV.

[Forte224]

It's not my trigger word, but many take rasp to be something inherently bad or unnatural. Whether it's lazy or generic is entirely dependent on execution as it always is with the arts. My feeling from the tone of your posts is that you are angry about something. I just disagreed with you. Did I upset you? That wasn't my intention.

We've had convos in the past about rasp/gruntiness and you never seem to let it be that I don't like it overall. Also I'm grumpy today, sorry

Sorry, I can't keep track of whom I talk to all the time and the discussions don't ring a bell. Do you not like it in real life or is it just when it sounds fake?

Oh well I didn't expect you to remember. I only remember because your profile pic is very recognizable amidst mostly Dragon Ball themed pics, just like I recognize 8000 Saiyan because he doesn't have one at all. Also my memory is like a steel trap.

Anyway, just when it sounds fake or doesn't fit the character. It doesn't seem true to the Japanese version that Piccolo and Vegeta sound like they do in Ocean or Funi. It makes them feel one dimensional I guess is my problem

[ABED]

I can see where you're coming from, but a few points:

- The Japanese voices are one take on those characters. Sabat's voice in Kai fits both characters well.
- Piccolo starts out as a demon so McNeil's voice fits. I understand why someone can argue the voice could come off as one dimensional, his Piccolo voice has enough range where he can convey both the formerly evil side of Piccolo as well as the avuncular side to Piccolo.
- I agree that Drummond's voice makes Vegeta sound stereotypically evil, but it's so good that I can go with it. And to be fair, at that point in the series, Vegeta is a straight ahead villain. HIs layers come later. Hell, even we aren't even told he is a prince until the Freeza arc.