Would the Dragon Ball series be more respected if Z didn't exist?

[Totamo]

Its no doubt that Z is the more popular anime and the reason many like the franchise but the z half of the manga and anime are the most criticized. Many praise the original dragon ball series and have called toriyama a high tier writer for that but z is where they call him a shit writer and where the show loses its sense of adventure and martial arts and becomes about power levels and transformations and blast fests.


What do you guys think? Should toriyama had stopped writing dragon ball after the 23rd tenkaichi budokai ?

[MasenkoHA]

SJW would have ate early Dragon Ball alive nowadays (admittedly the overt sexualization of Bulma was
a bit much)

[DBSQA]

No, I'm pretty sure Z is why dragon ball is popular.

[MasenkoHA]

^In America


Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened

[DBSQA]

^In America


Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened

Yeah I meant in America. But I heard that anime was not common in Japan, so I'm pretty sure most of Toriyama's money is coming from westerners.

[Kamiccolo9]

^In America


Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened

Yeah I meant in America. But I heard that anime was not common in Japan, so I'm pretty sure most of Toriyama's money is coming from westerners.

What are you talking about?

[DBSQA]

^In America


Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened

Yeah I meant in America. But I heard that anime was not common in Japan, so I'm pretty sure most of Toriyama's money is coming from westerners.

What are you talking about?

That Z is popular in America but Anime in general is not popular in Japan?

[Totamo]

SJW would have ate early Dragon Ball alive nowadays (admittedly the overt sexualization of Bulma was
a bit much)

seeing as how fanserivce is now, i don't think they will complain

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah I meant in America. But I heard that anime was not common in Japan, so I'm pretty sure most of Toriyama's money is coming from westerners.

What are you talking about?

That Z is popular in America but Anime in general is not popular in Japan?

Pretty sure it is?

I don't think anime geeks/otaku are as "accepted" in Japan but I'm pretty sure anime is still popular

[DBSQA]

What are you talking about?

That Z is popular in America but Anime in general is not popular in Japan?

Pretty sure it is?

I don't think anime geeks/otaku are as "accepted" in Japan but I'm pretty sure anime is still popular

Really? That's what I've been hearing maybe it is just the otaku/geeks.

[Atp23]

^In America


Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened

Yeah I meant in America. But I heard that anime was not common in Japan, so I'm pretty sure most of Toriyama's money is coming from westerners.

Anime is exponentially more popular in Japan than it is in the United States/Western countries. Sure Dragon Ball is bringing in lots of cash from these other countries too, but the reason it was brought here in the first place is due to the massive popularity in Japan and people recognizing it may also appeal to audiences world wide as well.

[keyz05]

No, I'm pretty sure Z is why dragon ball is popular.

I totally agree with you there. Z truly did make DB extremely popular nowadays.

[Totamo]

No, I'm pretty sure Z is why dragon ball is popular.

i didn't say popular, i said respected

[sintzu]

Z is the reason I and countless others are anime fans today so no, it shouldn't have ended with Piccolo.

Toriyama and the dragon ball manga as a whole are the reason the Shonen Genre is what it is today and countless authors look up to them so I don't know how it's being disrespected.

Without DB (the manga) the way it is now, the entire Shonen Genre would be VERY different from what we know it to be.

Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened.

It was and it just kept growing as the story went on. based on what I read, Shonen Jump's sales peaked in 1994/1995 during the Buu arc and after it ended they went down and never got that big again.

I heard that anime was not common in Japan.

Not common ? there are more anime there then we'd ever be able to watch or even count. Anime in Japan is like movies in America, it's everywhere and everyone is making it.

In America however, Z is pretty much the reason why anime is as popular it is now.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It would probably be more respected amongst hipsters and art snobs who only value the quality of storytelling, but amongst the general population I would say no. Dragon Ball is a globally loved brand and the Z portion only intensified that.

[Ki Breaker]

Considering the reason for me and many others being here in the first place is z, I would have to say no..

Z is still compared with every thing new series do, that alone should be enough to understand it's weight

[MajinMan]

While I do agree that the first half of the series is overall better in quality, the second half (Z) portion has too much good stuff to just be thrown away. The Saiyan arc is fantastic. It is one of the best arcs in the franchise. The Freeza arc is very solid and has the most iconic villain in the series. The Cell and Buu arcs are controversial, but I personally really enjoy the Buu arc for its over the top gags and action.

Would the series be more respected if it stopped at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai? Probably. But at the same time, it would not be as popular and well known as it is today.

^In America


Pretty sure Dragon Ball was popular in Japan before Z happened

Yeah I meant in America. But I heard that anime was not common in Japan, so I'm pretty sure most of Toriyama's money is coming from westerners.

Japanese cartoons not being popular in Japan does not make any sense. It's like saying Spongebob is more popular overseas than it is in the US.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Repeat after me: The USA isnt the entirety of America The USA isnt the entirety of America The USA isnt the entirety of America The USA isnt the entirety of America

GOSH DARN IT! It was massively popular in Latin America before it either Z or its arrival to the USA.

[Cipher]

So, I'm going to go ahead and read this thread as containing the enthymeme that Dragon Ball (Z et al.) is not respected, at least in the United States.

If that's our starting point, I'd say we're going one step too far in searching for the origin. Dragon Ball would be more "respected" in the States, in the kinds of circles I believe the thread is also referring to, had FUNimation not reversioned it so heavily in the particular ways they did. In doing so, they drew a sharper tonal divide between Z and Dragon Ball than ever needed to exist.

I don't believe, international reversionings removed from the conversation, that the entirety of the series would be any more "respectable" or fondly remembered for the removal of its second half. Dragon Ball, or volumes 1-16 of the manga, is a fine series. All of Toriyama's previous strengths are on display, along with several new ones invented to accommodate more slightly serious action. But the real achievements on that front, which the series is remembered for as much as anything—Toriyama's ability to invent nearly an entirely new visual language for impact and speed—hadn't yet come into play. Nor had several other bits of visual iconography, character moments, or the sense of both escalation and realistic progression of time that continue to bring new fans to the series. Dragon Ball would have been remembered well at sixteen volumes, but I don't think it would have left anywhere near the mark it did with its later content. Nor do I think we'd be nearly as interested in revisiting it.

The first half of the series is a Toriyama-spin on wuxia and general matial-arts tropes, and it's excellent at doing what it does. The series as a whole (both the Dragon Ball and Z portions together) is something much more distinct and memorable and genre-defining and weird. I don't think there's anything inherently different or more embarrassing about its Z-era content so long as you remove it from the very particular presentation it received during its original U.S. run.

Re: Focusing this discussion on the United States, since I'm not sure the original poster is from, or explicitly limiting his question to, that country: I'm assuming it's at the heart of the question because our reversioning was exported to so many English-speaking countries. This particular version, along with its fanbase, tends to set the tone for English-language discussion on the web.

[floofychan333]

This is a tough question. On one hand, DB has far fewer plot holes and more variety in its storytelling, but on the other hand, it's far more lewd and dated portrayals run even more rampantly in it than in DBZ.