Biggest retcon in DragonBall?

[ABED]

What about Piccolo being a demon and then changed to a member of an alien race? Is that not a retcon?

I would say it is a retcon, but my reading of Piccolo is that he's now both. When Kami split himself in two, his evil half became a demon, but he's still alien in origin.

[Gaffer Tape]

The fact that it changes your interpretation of events doesn't make something a retcon.

"(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."

Since this actually is a thread about retcons, I feel no unease asking you to please learn what this word means. Because you don't know what it means. Please stop spreading misinformation.

[Wezenheim]

The fact that it changes your interpretation of events doesn't make something a retcon. If a writer skillfully writes a twist you don't see coming that changes the perception of previous scenes, that doesn't neccessarily make it a retcon.

The cause of Planet Vegeta's destruction is a good example of a retcon.

I'd probably agree that it might not apply to every situation, but in this case I was kind of paraphrasing what Wikipedia refers to as the "Addition" type of retroactive continuity. Perhaps not the best source to cite sure, but even the definition of the word retroactive seems to really lend to the term being more open than people often interpret it to be.

In the past, we were led to believe that Goku was a human boy who, for some reason, just had a tail. Then we were told that "No, actually he's an alien." Again, no contradictions, but it changes what we were supposed to believe. I'm not sure if you were arguing against this point at least, but it fits the retcon bill for me.

Edit: Ah, Lance beat me to it!

[ABED]

In the past, we were led to believe that Goku was a human boy who, for some reason, just had a tail. Then we were told that "No, actually he's an alien." Again, no contradictions, but it changes what we were supposed to believe. I'm not sure if you were arguing against this point at least, but it fits the retcon bill for me.

Edit: Ah, Lance beat me to it!

Of course, that's what every twist is supposed to do. When they set up something, they want to make you believe one thing and then when the twist happens, you are supposed to see things another way. None of that makes it a retcon. Gaffer, do you not realize that such a definition as you pasted includes plot twists that are planned from the beginning? In an episode of Scrubs, a character dies and then Brendan Fraser's character, Ben, follows Dr. Cox around for the whole episode, but it's later revealed that Ben was the one that died. That changes the audience's perception of what came before. Toriyama never gave us a definite answer about his origin.

Since this actually is a thread about retcons, I feel no unease asking you to please learn what this word means. Because you don't know what it means. Please stop spreading misinformation.

You are way too liberal with your usage. It's a vague term that was create by the comic book world and it wasn't used in reference to creating backstory. It was used in reference to something specific. I don't think you've thought the issue through. Toriyama never firmly says that Goku is human or alien or mutant. He's unique and there's at least one instance where Oolong wonders if Goku is an alien. It's probably unintentional foreshadowing. Toriyama never leads the audience to believe he's human. It's just assumed by most of the characters and the audience, mainly because they live in a world of anthropomorphic characters.

I've read the wikipedia entry and there's valuable stuff in there, such as the origin of the term. I find that the most useful for issues like this and concepts like "canon". I think it's a term open to interpretation, but I can't accept it being simple backstory. It's too broad and there's already a term for that - "backstory".

[UltimateHammerBro]

What about Piccolo being a demon and then changed to a member of an alien race? Is that not a retcon?

I would say it is a retcon, but my reading of Piccolo is that he's now both. When Kami split himself in two, his evil half became a demon, but he's still alien in origin.

I don't entirely agree. Demons, even if they seldom appear in the series, seem to be treated as a separate species with its own quirks, not as something you can become. In the King Piccolo saga, we're told that those killed by demons cannot go to the afterlife, and it didn't seem like something particular to Piccolo, but a general fact about the demon race. It got referenced again in the Saiyan saga, not long before Piccolo was revealed as a Namekian, and this time it seemed it was more about being evil than being a demon.
Even if the first origin had some plotholes (if Piccolo was a demon and God wasn't, what race did his original form belong to?), I think some things were retconned.

And to be honest, they made this one a whole lot worse by showing us 'flashbacks' to his time with Future Gohan - flashbacks which showed him with blue hair.

Don't forget the flashbacks to the Cell saga... in black and white

[ABED]

But Piccolo doesn't become a demon, he's literally evil incarnate. I take that to mean that by expelling evil from himself, it was embodied as a demon. Toriyama doesn't go much further than that. Tolkien would've written pages upon pages about demonology, but Toriyama's world building is very slim. We don't have much to go on beyond what is stated or shown in the manga and a whole lot more conjecture.

So yes, it was a retconned origin, but I don't think it's inherently contradictory. We know so little about demons in Dragon Ball.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Toriyama never firmly says that Goku is human or alien or mutant.

Not to start a separate debate, but Gokuu can be a human, alien and mutant all at the same time.

seem to be treated as a separate species with its own quirks, not as something you can become. In the King Piccolo saga, we're told that those killed by demons cannot go to the afterlife, and it didn't seem like something particular to Piccolo, but a general fact about the demon race. It got referenced again in the Saiyan saga, not long before Piccolo was revealed as a Namekian, and this time it seemed it was more about being evil than being a demon.

We don't really get the impression that Demons are a species. Dabra is a demon, Piccolo Daimaou is a demon, and they don't look all that alike now do they? And yes, Piccolo Jr. starts out as a demon, but had somehow ceased to be one by the time of Raditz. So it seems that, like the position of gods in this universe, you can become one or quit.

[Kid Buu]

In the Saiyan arc Vegeta is the strongest in the universe, but next arc Freeza is.

Zarbon said Freeza didn't want the Saiyans to gang up on him, but later it is changed to fear of a Super Saiyan.

Maybe not the biggest, but the first two that come to mind.

[ABED]

In the Saiyan arc Vegeta is the strongest in the universe, but next arc Freeza is.

Zarbon said Freeza didn't want the Saiyans to gang up on him, but later it is changed to fear of a Super Saiyan.

Maybe not the biggest, but the first two that come to mind.

At the end of the Saiyan arc, Kaio says destroying Vegeta isn't destroying the root of evil. I take that as Toriyama foreshadowing a bigger threat. Vegeta's boast that he's the strongest works as just that - a boast. He's prone to making those sorts of claims.

[AvatarReiko]

More of a reveal than a retcon.

Biggest retcon is Goku being able to turn Super Saiyan 3 after fighting Vegeta at his maximum.

He did fight him at his maximum. As a SSJ2, though.

That's not his maximum.

He was fighting at his maximum as a SSJ2.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

He did fight him at his maximum. As a SSJ2, though.

That's not his maximum.

He was fighting at his maximum as a SSJ2.

But he could go SSJ3, so that's not his maximum power. If Gokuu fought me using a power level of 3, would I be beating him at his full strength?

[dario03]

Didn't we go from having 4 galaxies to much more in the Universe? Or was that 4 quadrants?

[keyz05]

I would consider Goku turning into an alien to be a pretty big retcon.

I would consider that a mixture of both a retcon and a reveal, in my opinion.

[AvatarReiko]

That's not his maximum.

He was fighting at his maximum as a SSJ2.

If Gokuu fought me using a power level of 3, would I be beating him at his full strength?

In that specific form, yes. DBZ characters can adjust their PLs to whatever level they want. Goku was at the strongest he possibly could be in that specific form and was genuinely going all out. The bruises and injuries he sustained during each skirmish can testify to that.

[Beek King]

In the Saiyan arc Vegeta is the strongest in the universe, but next arc Freeza is.

Zarbon said Freeza didn't want the Saiyans to gang up on him, but later it is changed to fear of a Super Saiyan.

Maybe not the biggest, but the first two that come to mind.

At the end of the Saiyan arc, Kaio says destroying Vegeta isn't destroying the root of evil. I take that as Toriyama foreshadowing a bigger threat. Vegeta's boast that he's the strongest works as just that - a boast. He's prone to making those sorts of claims.

Well, it was the end of the arc so maybe that's when Toriyama already came up with Freeza. He plans and writes things at the seat of his pants.
Early Saiyan Saga gives me the impression that Vegeta and Nappa are just rogues, the Zod Gang to Goku's Superman.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I would consider Goku turning into an alien to be a pretty big retcon.

I would consider that a mixture of both a retcon and a reveal, in my opinion.

I am in the it isn't a retcon at all camp, he was never written as a normal human from day one, I mean do folks remember Goku transforming into the Oozaru Ape in DB? Goku turning out to be an alien doesn't go against anything that was previously established it just makes everything that happened in DB make sense.

[90sDBZ]

Vegeta and Nappa's motive for wanting immortality comes to mind. At first it's implied that they're their own bosses, and Vegeta claims he's the strongest in the universe, but we later find out that's not the case after all.

[ABED]

Vegeta and Nappa's motive for wanting immortality comes to mind. At first it's implied that they're their own bosses, and Vegeta claims he's the strongest in the universe, but we later find out that's not the case after all.

Their motives don't change. Vegeta wanting to be immortal so as to be the best forever is the ultimate goal. It was never to kill Freeza. That's a ancillary goal.

[90sDBZ]

Vegeta and Nappa's motive for wanting immortality comes to mind. At first it's implied that they're their own bosses, and Vegeta claims he's the strongest in the universe, but we later find out that's not the case after all.

Their motives don't change. Vegeta wanting to be immortal so as to be the best forever is the ultimate goal. It was never to kill Freeza. That's a ancillary goal.

They say they want to be immortal so they can "Fight for an eternity". Once Frieza gets revealed it's made clear that nothing would be more pleasurable to Vegeta than taking him down. As further evidence, Vegeta completely loses interest in immortality once Frieza gets beaten.

[ABED]

Vegeta and Nappa's motive for wanting immortality comes to mind. At first it's implied that they're their own bosses, and Vegeta claims he's the strongest in the universe, but we later find out that's not the case after all.

Their motives don't change. Vegeta wanting to be immortal so as to be the best forever is the ultimate goal. It was never to kill Freeza. That's a ancillary goal.

They say they want to be immortal so they can "Fight for an eternity". Once Frieza gets revealed it's made clear that nothing would be more pleasurable to Vegeta than taking him down. As further evidence, Vegeta completely loses interest in immortality once Frieza gets beaten.

Freeza's just the immediate goal. Taking him down is a means to an end, and after Freeza is taken down, going Super Saiyan and taking down Goku becomes the next goal. It's not a retcon because Toriyama didn't say or imply that Vegeta's greatest goal in life is to kill Freeza. Vegeta's ultimate goal is to be stronger than everyone else.