Is Dragon Ball GT canonical?

[rereboy]

Then the canon changes.

A clear canon change would be something like: on X date, an official source states Y to be canon, and then, on Z date, an official source states Y to no longer be canon.

In the case we were talking about, if the statement only stated that the last chapters aren't canon, we would have something that we, as fans, assumed previously to be 100% canon in its full extent, and then we would be contradicted by the first ever official word on the subject.

They are similar situations but still a little different. In the first, we have an actual change of the official word on the subject. On the second, we just have the one single official word on the subject and a previous assumption.

Still, these are murky waters. The point of my example was to show primarily that we, fans, have no power over the definition of canon.

That sentence is redundant. Canon is official by definition.

True, but I sometimes choose to be redundant to be more even clearer than necessary about what I mean.

[ABED]

Canon first became a concept in reference to the original Sherlock Holmes stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but he never used the term. Are you saying there is no canon because he didn't use those words?

You don't need Toriyama to explicitly state that his original story is canon. Changes are a different issue.

[sintzu]

Super (or Toriyama's new stories) follows the ending of the manga's last arc and are leading up to its epilogue so doesn't that by defult make the manga canon even though no one has come out and said it outright ? For now of course, when Toriyama's done they could throw everything out and reboot it if they wanted.

[ABED]

What would it even mean for DB or any series to not have a canon?

[sintzu]

What would it even mean for DB or any series to not have a canon?

It would mean the series is like tom and Jerry or the Simpson's where each episode is its random own thing that doesn't follow any established plots or rules. That's not the case with dragon ball. Each arc in the manga follows the one before it and super is following the manga with each of its arcs following each other. To say db isn't following a Canon is like questioning weather or not the cell arc happened for example.

[ABED]

Great point. For some reason, I was just thinking of series where there's continuity from episode to episode.

[rereboy]

Canon first became a concept in reference to the original Sherlock Holmes stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but he never used the term. Are you saying there is no canon because he didn't use those words?

You don't need Toriyama to explicitly state that his original story is canon. Changes are a different issue.

I stated exactly what I wanted to state: fans don't define canon, official sources do. I never stated that only the author can be an official, legitimate source for defining canon, just that mere fans can't.

I don't need Toriyama or other official source to assume that the manga is canon, but, because I'm fully aware that I'm just a fan, on the absence of any official word on the subject, I don't presume my assumption is anything more than an assumption born out of my own deduction, opinion and the information I have available, no matter how much of a safe bet I believe that assumption to be.

As for actually telling others what is canon and what isn't, I would actually need Toriyama or other official source stipulating that information because, since I'm just a fan and thus have no actual power to define and tell others what is canon and what isn't, all I would actually be able to tell others is what I assume the canon to be or what I would like the canon to be, no matter how much of a safe bet I believe that assumption to be.

Super (or Toriyama's new stories) follows the ending of the manga's last arc and are leading up to its epilogue so doesn't that by defult make the manga canon even though no one has come out and said it outright ? For now of course, when Toriyama's done they could throw everything out and reboot it if they wanted.

A mere logical continuation of events is not all it takes for something to be canon. If that was true, then GT or parts of GT would automatically be canon since it continues the events of the end of the manga with Goku and Uub, for example. What ultimately gives something canon status is the official word on the subject. Until then, all we really have is fan's deductions/assumptions regarding what should be canon.

[sintzu]

A mere logical continuation of events is not all it takes for something to be canon.

If that was true, then GT or parts of GT would automatically be canon since it continues the events of the end of the manga with Goku and Uub, for example.

To say DB doesn't have a canon is saying that it has no established rules or plot, that it just does whatever regardless of it fitting in a timeline or set of events. We know for a fact that Toriyama's new stories follow the conclusion of the Buu arc and that they're leading into the manga's 2 chapter ending (which is something Toyotarou announced). Why do we need someone official to tell us something that's common knowledge ? Toriyama's the main writer now so until said otherwise based on his new plots, the manga is the canon. When he's done can someone change that to include the movies and GT ? of course but we're not taking about predictions after he leaves.

This is where your point makes sense cause not only has no one said anything about GT's part in all this but Super has gone out of its way to contradict it so until Super is over, we'll have no idea if GT will still fit in the timeline or if it'll be its own thing.

[ABED]

I think you can't make the logical inference. Sherlock Holmes has a canon and it's what Doyle wrote. He didn't have to say anything on the matter. The concept was derived afterwards, but in reference to his work. We don't need Toriyama to say HIS own work is canon. The only issues are things like the new ending and Super. Implicit in the original manga is that it's canon.

[rereboy]

To say DB doesn't have a canon is saying that it has no established rules or plot

I didn't say it doesn't have a canon per se. I said it doesn't have a defined canon. In other words, I'm sure it has a canon, but the point is that we don't don't know exactly what it is because no official sources have actually defined it. The best that fans can do is try to deduce/assume what it is but since they aren't the ones with power in the matter, that's all they can do, no matter how sure they are of their deductions and assumptions.

[ABED]

Toriyama is the official source. Him writing it is him saying what's canon. He doesn't have to explicitly say it anymore than Doyle had to about Sherlock Holmes. While I agree with you for the most part, there are instances where it is clear as day without having someone come out and say it explicitly. GT is an example of its canonicity being unclear. I do think adaptations are separate from the original and can have their own canon.

[ekrolo2]

The problem with saying anything Toriyama writes = canon is Super. It's two separate versionsof the same plot points done differently to varying degrees, what counts there?

The anime, the main product that's known to make alterations to the bullet points or the side product manga which has Toriyama more closely involved. Or is it the pure, basic bullet points that count most like Blue Goku holding his own against Fusion Zamasu, Goku x10 Vegeta vs Hit, ki leaking,....

[ABED]

I didn't say anything he writes is canon.

It's two separate versionsof the same plot points done differently to varying degrees

Not sure what you mean. How is Super two different versions of the same plot point?

[ekrolo2]

I didn't say anything he writes is canon.

It's two separate versionsof the same plot points done differently to varying degrees

Not sure what you mean. How is Super two different versions of the same plot point?

Both the anime and manga take different routes with the same plot points.

For example Goku getting ten times stronger than Vegeta when he fights Hit. The anime has Goku stack Kaio-Ken on top of Blue for him to power himself up. The manga has Blue suffer severe stamina problems that cost Vegeta a lot of strength, making Goku stronger then him when he fights Hit by a large margin. Same plot point, different means of getting there.

Here's another: Goku overpowering Fusion Zamasu. In the anime he pulls a powerful Kamehameha out of his ass to win a beam struggle. In the manga, Goku prevents aura leaking from Blue and it powers him up so much, he can fight a potara fusion bad guy in an even fight for two chapters. Once again, the same plot point handled differently.

How Fusion Zamasu becomes Infinite. In the anime his body is destroyed and his immortal spirit becomed a malignant, force of nature that spreads across the universe. In the manga, Zamasu essentially fusing with himself causes their DNA to go out of whack, causing clones to form whenever they're blown to pieces ala Majin Boo. Same plot point of the vad guy becoming vast in scope, different approach.

[rereboy]

While I agree with you for the most part, there are instances where it is clear as day without having someone come out and say it explicitly.

I agree with you regarding there being things that we see as clear as day on this subject, I also assume the manga to be canon because, as you say, it seems clear as day to me. However, while it's perfectly fair to tell others what we assume to be canon, when we start to tell others "no, this is canon, there's no question" and so on, that's when we start to confuse our own certainty regarding what should be canon with the ability to actually tell others what is canon. We might have the first one, but, as fans, we don't have the second. That belongs solely to official sources.

This might seem like a nitpick but there's a world of difference between the two and, imo, most of the endless discussions regarding canon end up happening when fans don't really get this.

[sintzu]

The problem with saying anything Toriyama writes = canon is Super. It's two separate versionsof the same plot points done differently to varying degrees, what counts there?

BOG and RF have 3 versions.

Things do get problematic with his new stories because of the different versions so I just take the basic plots as canon.

So current canon would be the manga, the story of Beerus going to earth to fight the Ssjg, the story of Freeza being resurrected and attacking earth, the story of when Beerus and his brother had a tournament, the story of Trunks going back in time to get help in order to fight Zamasu & the current story of the multiverse tournament held by Zeno.

[Lord Beerus]

The problem with saying anything Toriyama writes = canon is Super. It's two separate versionsof the same plot points done differently to varying degrees, what counts there?

BOG and RF have 3 versions.

Things do get problematic with his new stories because of the different versions so I just take the basic plots as canon.

So current canon would be the manga, the story of Beerus going to earth to fight the Ssjg, the story of Freeza being resurrected and attacking earth, the story of when Beerus and his brother had a tournament, the story of Trunks going back in time to get help in order to fight Zamasu & the current story of the multiverse tournament held by Zeno.

3 version? As far as I know BOG and ROF have two versions of the same story.

[sintzu]

3 version? As far as I know BOG and ROF have two versions of the same story.

BOG has a movie, a 5 chapter manga arc and a 14 episode anime arc.

RF has a movie, an incomplete 3 chapter manga arc and a 12 episode anime arc.

[ABED]

While I agree with you for the most part, there are instances where it is clear as day without having someone come out and say it explicitly.

I agree with you regarding there being things that we see as clear as day on this subject, I also assume the manga to be canon because, as you say, it seems clear as day to me. However, while it's perfectly fair to tell others what we assume to be canon, when we start to tell others "no, this is canon, there's no question" and so on, that's when we start to confuse our own certainty regarding what should be canon with the ability to actually tell others what is canon. We might have the first one, but, as fans, we don't have the second. That belongs solely to official sources.

This might seem like a nitpick but there's a world of difference between the two and, imo, most of the endless discussions regarding canon end up happening when fans don't really get this.

Fair enough and it's why terms like "head canon" bug me.

Both the anime and manga take different routes with the same plot points.

Does Toriyama write either the manga or the TV series?

[ekrolo2]

While I agree with you for the most part, there are instances where it is clear as day without having someone come out and say it explicitly.

I agree with you regarding there being things that we see as clear as day on this subject, I also assume the manga to be canon because, as you say, it seems clear as day to me. However, while it's perfectly fair to tell others what we assume to be canon, when we start to tell others "no, this is canon, there's no question" and so on, that's when we start to confuse our own certainty regarding what should be canon with the ability to actually tell others what is canon. We might have the first one, but, as fans, we don't have the second. That belongs solely to official sources.

This might seem like a nitpick but there's a world of difference between the two and, imo, most of the endless discussions regarding canon end up happening when fans don't really get this.

Fair enough and it's why terms like "head canon" bug me.

Both the anime and manga take different routes with the same plot points.

Does Toriyama write either the manga or the TV series?

They're both based on the same manuscripts he sends them, they just take different routes of accomplishing the same bullet points as I said previously.