Is Dragon Ball GT canonical?

[t0ffe3m4n]

this is what delusional gt-tards believe

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I'm sorry i will reword that and be more respectable

i think ppl who like DBGT have rather bad taste and are emotionally hurt from GT being non-canon so they believe complete lies like "there is no offical canon" to make themselves feel better

hows dat

Barely any less patronizing than your original post, imo.

[Robo4900]

I'm sorry i will reword that and be more respectable

i think ppl who like DBGT have rather bad taste and are emotionally hurt from GT being non-canon so they believe complete lies like "there is no offical canon" to make themselves feel better

hows dat

GT is fairly well-liked in Japan, and most places that didn't get Funimation's macekre'd "Dub" are fairly neutral on it, so according to you, most Japanese, Canadian, and European fans have bad taste and are emotionally hurt about some people deciding 18 years down the line that some TV show from the '90s isn't "Canon" to the current incarnation of its franchise.

Putting aside the rather disrespectful tone of your post, this is the jumping off point of something I'd like to put forward to all nay-sayers to GT: GT isn't a bad show. It's simply mediocre. The fact it's a follow-up to the incredible duology of Dragon Ball and Z renders it rather underwhelming in comparison. In reality, it's a perfectly fine show which functions as a flawed but fun victory lap for what came before it, rather like Star Trek: Enterprise, or if you like, the Star Wars prequels, if Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones were a 30-minute prologue to Revenge Of The Sith, and it was all released as one movie.
Ultimately, you're all entitled to your opinions of course, but remember, a lot of people do like GT. Both opinions are perfectly valid, but don't try to hide it behind the "Canon" debate, just admit you don't like it, and instead approach it as a point of interest; why do people who like GT like it? That would make for a much more rewarding and entertaining discussion, don't you think?

Yes, neither the Star Trek nor the Star Wars analogy is perfect, but you get my point.
Also, I'm currently in the process of watching Star Trek: Enterprise, so I'd appreciate it if people keep any spoilers out of this discussion.
Also, yes, the Funimation dub is okay with the Japanese score and all the episodes actually included, but a lot of it is still pretty unfitting, and I honestly think the Blue Water dub was a better representation of GT.

[sintzu]

There is a canon and it is the manga and super.

No one can argue about the manga but Super is a different story cause we have 3 versions of BOG and 2 of everything else.

The Funimation dub is okay with the Japanese score and all the episodes actually included.

I think skipping episodes 6-15 makes it a better show just because of how bad they were compared to everything else, both in terms of writing and tone shift.

[VegettoEX]

Barely any less patronizing than your original post, imo.

Sorry if it came across that way. Wasn't intended as such. I'd like to think and hope that a lengthy response like that shows at least a little care! Noted, though. Thanks.

I'm sorry i will reword that and be more respectable

i think ppl who like DBGT have rather bad taste and are emotionally hurt from GT being non-canon so they believe complete lies like "there is no offical canon" to make themselves feel better

hows dat

Not especially. I don't have a horse in the GT race one way or the other, for example.

[ABED]

I think skipping episodes 6-15 makes it a better show just because of how bad they were compared to everything else, both in terms of writing and tone shift.
What do you mean regarding "tone shift"?

[Bansho64]

Sorry if it came across that way. Wasn't intended as such. I'd like to think and hope that a lengthy response like that shows at least a little care! Noted, though. Thanks.

I think he was talking bout the other guy

I'm sorry i will reword that that and be more respectable

i think ppl who like DBGT have rather bad taste and are emotionally hurt from GT being non-canon so they believe complete lies like "there is no offical canon" to make themselves feel better

hows dat

Barely any better than what you posted before. Pretty insulting.

[Zephyr]

I think skipping episodes 6-15 makes it a better show just because of how bad they were compared to everything else, both in terms of writing and tone shift.

Episode 6 is really the only one you can cut out. Zoonama leads directly into the Para Para brothers, which lead directly into Mutchi Mutchi, which leads directly into Lood, which leads directly into Myuu. That said, those episodes are definitely a chore. I'd combine 7 and 8 into a single episode, 9 and 10 into a single episode, 11 and 12 into a single episode, and 13 and 14 into a single episode.

[VegettoEX]

I think he was talking bout the other guy

I'm 99% certain that I was the one directly being solely quoted before! Glad the edit clears that up . Unless I'm just dense. Which is entirely possible. Anyway, I do actually agree on this non-existent challenge of my post content, so that's good!

Barely any better than what you posted before. Pretty insulting.

Speaking of "I think", I think they're well-aware that they're still being a jerk and just wanna stick it to the man.

[Grimlock]

If I were to accept that, I'd have to accept the Lucas Revised Original Star Wars Trilogy. I don't think I can do that.

Why not? It is in fact canon. That's not saying it's better. It's just acknowledging it's the official version.

See? The exact stubbornness I talked about. If people wasn't that, the debate of canonicity of Dragon Ball would flow so smoothly.

[ABED]

If I were to accept that, I'd have to accept the Lucas Revised Original Star Wars Trilogy. I don't think I can do that.

Why not? It is in fact canon. That's not saying it's better. It's just acknowledging it's the official version.

See? The exact stubbornness I talked about. If people wasn't that, the debate of canonicity of Dragon Ball would flow so smoothly.

Who is stubborn in this example?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If I were to accept that, I'd have to accept the Lucas Revised Original Star Wars Trilogy. I don't think I can do that.

Why not? It is in fact canon. That's not saying it's better. It's just acknowledging it's the official version.

See? The exact stubbornness I talked about. If people wasn't that, the debate of canonicity of Dragon Ball would flow so smoothly.

Who is stubborn in this example?

I think he's referring to the fact that we had a disagreement at all... maybe?

The discussion didn't go anywhere, so I don't know how he could know how stubborn we are, so maybe not. I don't know.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Given that canon was first used in reference to Sherlock Holmes, why do you guys insist on believing canon needs to be explicitly stated?

Because with something that has as many different criss-crossing products, realities, re-tellings, and spin-offs as Dragon Ball... it kind of needs to be.

I'd actually argue that is exactly why Dragon Ball doesn't have a set canon, if they came out and said for example Super or GT is not canon then they'd lose all interest in those properties, how much are people going to invest in something that they are told that isn't cannonical? Or a better example would be when Resurrection "F" the movie came out on home video, which was the same time as the Super retelling, if Toei announced that the retelling was canon and not the movie, would the movie have sold as much as it did? Bandai recently started a new Gashapon line called Dragon Ball Super VS, the first wave had Black, Zamasu, Goku Vegeta and Trunks pretty standard right? But then the second wave has SSG Goku, Beerus and....Broly and SS4 Gogeta... These are the things they can get away with thanks to the lack of defined canon in DB.

[ABED]

I don't know why people put so much importance on canon that they would not watch something just because it's not officially considered part of the story?

[VegettoEX]

I don't know why people put so much importance on canon that they would not watch something just because it's not officially considered part of the story?

I don't know how you can NOT see it. The Dragon Ball franchise is huge and overwhelming. If someone wants to get into it, it's so much easier to know what NOT to watch. What ISN'T imperative that you watch. What ISN'T part of the bigger story. What HAS been dismissed. The smaller you can make the backlog, the easier it is to wrap your head around and digest.

I'm a lapsed One Piece fan. At this point, I have absolutely no fucking clue what's essential that I read or watch to get back into it and "know" the "story". Which movies "count"? Fuck if I know. Which bonus chapters count? Fuck if I know. When franchises get this big, it becomes overwhelming, to the point of pushing fans further away rather than pulling them back in.

It's one of the main reasons that American comics have such a problem with readership (reboot? lolz not really you actually have to know 60 years of history to understand volume #1 in any way), and why Marvel's cinematic universe is doing gangbusters (everything counts; just watch everything, they all work and simultaneously stand alone, so do whatever you want actually).

I'd actually argue that is exactly why Dragon Ball doesn't have a set canon, if they came out and said for example Super or GT is not canon then they'd lose all interest in those properties, how much are people going to invest in something that they are told that isn't cannonical? Or a better example would be when Resurrection "F" the movie came out on home video, which was the same time as the Super retelling, if Toei announced that the retelling was canon and not the movie, would the movie have sold as much as it did? Bandai recently started a new Gashapon line called Dragon Ball Super VS, the first wave had Black, Zamasu, Goku Vegeta and Trunks pretty standard right? But then the second wave has SSG Goku, Beerus and....Broly and SS4 Gogeta... These are the things they can get away with thanks to the lack of defined canon in DB.

This is absolutely one of the big things I bring up in my discussions on the matter. It's precisely why, rather than defining a canon, they actively avoid doing so. It's not so much about "having" one, so much as it is just walking on the outskirts and avoiding the issue as much as possible.

Dragon Ball GT, regardless of any one person's opinions on it (and, again, I have absolutely no horse in the GT race, believe me), is still constantly being used. It served as an entire basis for the second wave of Dragon Ball Heroes content updates (and is still published as a comic in Saikyo Jump every other month due to that). Some of the figures you referenced? They cost over $100. Requested characters in games? Reports are still that people want GT characters (see: XV1 DLC packs and story updates).

Any little mention they go on record with as "dismissing" something like GT or a movie or any other ancillary product can be taken by the consumer as one more reason to not go ahead and spend that $10 on the DLC pack or $100 on that figure. It's all mind games. As someone who does this stuff for a living, I see the transparent marketing scheme and psychology behind it. It's fucking brilliant. I love it.

[ABED]

I don't know how you can NOT see it. The Dragon Ball franchise is huge and overwhelming. If someone wants to get into it, it's so much easier to know what NOT to watch. What ISN'T imperative that you watch. What ISN'T part of the bigger story.

I'd much rather watch it all if I like it, or ask someone whose opinion I trust about what to watch instead of what is considered canon which could easily change. I'm interested in enjoying stories. Canon doesn't affect my ability to enjoy a good story.

It's one of the main reasons that American comics have such a problem with readership (reboot? lolz not really you actually have to know 60 years of history to understand volume #1 in any way), and why Marvel's cinematic universe is doing gangbusters (everything counts; just watch everything, they all work and simultaneously stand alone, so do whatever you want actually).

American comics have a readership problem for a number of reasons not pertaining to issues of canon. One of which is the lost generation of comic book fans because for years comics were geared towards adults and so kids didn't get into it at a young age. Also, Marvel comics are generally written with the philosophy in mind that "every comics is someone's first comic". I don't really agree with any of this evaluation about the success of the MCU. It's more than a tad reductive.

[VegettoEX]

Well, yeah, I'm not about to get into a major thesis on the success and failure of American comic books and their adaptations just to compare with dumb ol' Dragon Ball. I agree with you, but I simultaneously don't think that diminishes any of my points.

YOU may decide you like something enough to watch every single last piece of media from a franchise, but that's... not necessarily the norm.

I posit that one of the reasons a lot of people my age got into anime and manga in the first place was the very fact that they tended to have distinct beginnings, middles, and ends that were obvious and self-contained. (I've had more than enough open-ended-question conversations with a range of folks to feel relatively safe in making that point.) The more the Japanese market turns their products into the same style as the American market that I actively avoided in the first place, the less I'm interested in it.

It's only because I've been in so deep with DB for 20 years that I know every single last in-and-out. I weep for the newcomers.

[ABED]

Well, yeah, I'm not about to get into a major thesis on the success and failure of American comic books and their adaptations just to compare with dumb ol' Dragon Ball. I agree with you, but I simultaneously don't think that diminishes any of my points.

YOU may decide you like something enough to watch every single last piece of media from a franchise, but that's... not necessarily the norm.

I posit that one of the reasons a lot of people my age got into anime and manga in the first place was the very fact that they tended to have distinct beginnings, middles, and ends that were obvious and self-contained. (I've had more than enough open-ended-question conversations with a range of folks to feel relatively safe in making that point.) The more the Japanese market turns their products into the same style as the American market that I actively avoided in the first place, the less I'm interested in it.

It's only because I've been in so deep with DB for 20 years that I know every single last in-and-out. I weep for the newcomers.

There are many American characters that are so ubiquitous, like Batman, that even people who aren't pop culture junkies would have little issue understanding ongoing titles. I haven't read weekly comics in 20 years but I had no issue understanding or getting into stories like The Court of Owls, which I read based on recommendations. I know this is anecdotal and concede my way of doing things isn't the norm, but I do think people would get more enjoyment out of what they read or watch if they weren't concerned with the issue of canon and just cared about a good story.

So I guess my wording wasn't exact. I understand, but I believe people are placing too much emphasis on a rather unimportant concept.

Now that I think about it, I'm unsure of what the connection is between canon and stories with beginnings, middles, and ends vs. stories with beginnings and infinite middles.

[sintzu]

I don't know why people put so much importance on canon that they would not watch something just because it's not officially considered part of the story?

Would you want to watch and read everything batman or star wars ? where would you even start ? you'd have to be a huge fan to want to do that.

What do you mean regarding "tone shift"?

I think those episodes are where everything went from mid db-z's tone to very early db tone, the only difference is that early db was funny.

The more the Japanese market turns their products into the same style as the American market that I actively avoided in the first place, the less I'm interested in it. It's only because I've been in so deep with DB for 20 years that I know every single last in-and-out.

I still think it's easeir to get into DB than something like star wars or a comic series. With how popular the franchise is now though I can see that changing in the future where we might have a new show every 100 or so episodes like Yu-Gi-Oh which has 7 now.

[ABED]

Would you want to watch and read everything batman or star wars ? where would you even start ? you'd have to be a huge fan to want to do that.

No, I'd want to watch or read what I thought was a good story. Batman doesn't have a canon or at least it's a canon that's constantly changing. If I could only read canon, then I could never have read The Dark Knight Returns as it's non-canon.

I think those episodes are where everything went from mid db-z's tone to very early db tone, the only difference is that early db was funny.

Probably, but I fail to see how tone is an issue.

[sintzu]

Probably, but I fail to see how tone is an issue.

That's why they weren't good. If they were going to go full comedy then they should've at least gotten someone who could write something funny instead of reusing Toriyama's ideas and ruining them.

The rest of the show's writing isn't that much better but at least it had action to fall back on, these had nothing.