Ideas Don't Matter, Execution Matters

[ABED]

Throw a rock and you'll find someone giving their idea of what should happen in DB or what should have happened. They are so easy to come up with but so difficult to create in reality. Hell, even a bad sounding idea can be amazing if executed properly. Any examples of good ideas you thought were executed badly or ideas that could've been terrible, but DB did well?

GT comes to mind as a good sounding idea that was bungled.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Was GT really bad execution of bad ideas, though? I can agree to the second half of the series, but what about the first? Most people hate the ideas behind the first arc (I love them, but whatever). Although people seem to vaguely enjoy the idea behind Baby, I haven't heard much praise for his motivations or actions in any sense (other than once again, a very vague idea of revenge).

I think that demonstrates a very serious problem; When most people say "good idea, bad execution", what they really mean is "That sucked, but I bet some other potential version of that may be good in an alternate universe".

It's a very non-specific, and quite frankly, a useless description that I can't even take seriously anymore due to its overuse. It's either good or it isn't. If you want to get into the nuances of that, go nuts, but say something useful! Be specific in you compliments and criticisms, this is something I want to become the standard.

[Beek King]

A lot of this is subjective of course but for example I thought Baby was a great idea for a villain in GT but his execution was botched because he was quickly turned into another typical omnicidal DB villain. He could have finally been a villain that we can have genuine sympathy for.

[ABED]

I don't have a problem with Baby turning omnicidal, but no one called him on his hypocrisy.

[Freeza9000]

When I initially saw a glimpse of the villain "Goku Black" on a promotional poster with Trunks and Mai flashing that evil grin, I was somewhat rolling my eyes since I originally disapproved at the prospect of another "Evil Goku" character. I mean, we've seen that with numerous characters like Tullece, Cell, and probably Boo (then again, my memory of that arc is a bit foggy). However as the story arc went on, looking back at my initial reaction, I began to eat my words. Goku Black turned out to be one of the franchise's most greatest villains.

What honestly made Goku Black that great of a villain was because of how it showed Zamasu's evolution as a character and how much knowing Goku has changed him. By the time Goku bested him in a sparring match, learning how the mere mortal tapped into godhood in GodTube, and learning all about Goku through Zuno, he became disturbingly obsessed with Goku. He still obviously hates Goku for being the representation of the mortals' sin, but also developed a disturbing interest for Goku and his body such as when he relished every moment in fighting Goku in the past (whereas the original Present Zamasu felt quite uncomfortable and irritated fighting a mere mortal). Even to the point where Goku Black was at times influenced his the body's instincts when he admitted that his body wants to kill Goku (EP 57). Not to mention, inheriting Goku's Blood Knight characteristic of desiring to become even stronger than before through combat and inheriting Goku's calmness and exhilaration in battle. It's also worth noting how Goku Black's obsession with using combat as a means to boost his fighting power overpowered any rational decisions like Black using the Super Dragon Balls to wish for the extinction of all mortals or wish for immortality, similar how Goku's selfish decisions overpowered any rational intentions especially when Goku refuses to escape Namek and wanted to satisfy himself by beating Freeza at his fullest. I like the fact that this isn't a villain that happens to be an evil clone of Goku, but rather a villain with his own twisted ideology/philosophy blended in with some characteristics of our beloved battle hungry protagonist.

[floofychan333]

Deciding to push Piccolo to the background was a horrible and unfair idea but I will say that they executed it fairly well.

[8000 Saiyan]

King Cold was wasted.

[ABED]

Deciding to push Piccolo to the background was a horrible and unfair idea but I will say that they executed it fairly well.

What do you mean by unfair?

[dbs fanboy]

Making Goten and Trunks go to another planet to fight that water stuff was a nice idea,and then it was all wasted once Vegeta and Goku came in.

"Evil being who looks like Goku" sounded really stupid but Black was pretty much the best thing in his own arc and i'd dare to say one of the best in the franchise.

Was GT really bad execution of bad ideas, though? .

Did GT even had bad ideas?, so far super 17 seems to be the only thing that fits this description.

[Vijay]

One word: Super

Oh wait, did it even had "good ideas" in da 1st place?

I personally felt Gt's 1st & last Arc to fall under the good ideas but sloppy execution category

In an out-of-universe response, Id say HXH2011's Greed Island & Chimera Ant Arc to fall under same troope as well.

Also both FMAB & DN's 1st Arcs respectively. Those episodes were dready long even if it had some good materials in them. Quite frankly, not even Madhouse & BONES (arguably, finest big-budget anime studio out there) could prevent it. My 2 cents

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

This the one reason for why I will always prefer DBSuper over DBGT, the latter had singlehandly the best idea to have ever grace the franchise and was utterly wasted in the trash:

The Corruption of the Dragon Balls and the Evil Dragons

The mcguffin that our heroes have been relying for so long ultimately backfires on them and have to deal with consequences of their abuse.
The story woulf have also worked masterfully as spot on perfect last arc and bookend for the franchise, the story began with the Dragon Balls and would end with them.

It's a shame that it did not live up to its potential.

[floofychan333]

Deciding to push Piccolo to the background was a horrible and unfair idea but I will say that they executed it fairly well.

What do you mean by unfair?

The whole last arc of DB was building up to Piccolo, and while he had a good run as a villain, instantly introducing Vegeta kicked Piccolo to the curb way sooner than what should have happened. Toriyama just did so much work developing Piccolo, giving him a great backstory, amazing powers, and showing his transformation into a hero. Piccolo didn't even survive long enough to fight the main villain, which even Kuririn did, he was dead during the search for the Namekian DB's, he didn't stand a chance against the Androids, when he finally got to be on par with a SSJ Vegeta and Cell showed up almost instantly and pushed him to the background before he could even have a lengthy fight with 17, he wasn't able to do anything against Cell, and he was relegated to being a babysitter for Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc. Now, this may sound similar to what guys like Tenshinhan and Yamcha have gone through, but Piccolo was intended to stick around as Goku's foil for a long time and simply got tossed aside too quickly.

[Avenant]

This the one reason for why I will always prefer DBSuper over DBGT, the latter had singlehandly the best idea to have ever grace the franchise and was utterly wasted in the trash:

The Corruption of the Dragon Balls and the Evil Dragons

The mcguffin that our heroes have been relying for so long ultimately backfires on them and have to deal with consequences of their abuse.
The story woulf have also worked masterfully as spot on perfect last arc and bookend for the franchise, the story began with the Dragon Balls and would end with them.

It's a shame that it did not live up to its potential.

^This!^

Hell, They could have cut out the first half of DBGT and focused more on developing the Evil Dragon arc better and I wouldn't hate GT with the intense passion that I do.

[ABED]

Deciding to push Piccolo to the background was a horrible and unfair idea but I will say that they executed it fairly well.

What do you mean by unfair?

The whole last arc of DB was building up to Piccolo, and while he had a good run as a villain, instantly introducing Vegeta kicked Piccolo to the curb way sooner than what should have happened. Toriyama just did so much work developing Piccolo, giving him a great backstory, amazing powers, and showing his transformation into a hero. Piccolo didn't even survive long enough to fight the main villain, which even Kuririn did, he was dead during the search for the Namekian DB's, he didn't stand a chance against the Androids, when he finally got to be on par with a SSJ Vegeta and Cell showed up almost instantly and pushed him to the background before he could even have a lengthy fight with 17, he wasn't able to do anything against Cell, and he was relegated to being a babysitter for Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc. Now, this may sound similar to what guys like Tenshinhan and Yamcha have gone through, but Piccolo was intended to stick around as Goku's foil for a long time and simply got tossed aside too quickly.

Piccolo wasn't kicked to the curb in the Saiyan arc. He had a great arc and served a narrative purpose. That shows great "respect" for his character. And why does it matter if Toriyama intended something? Is that even true?

[KorgDTR2000]

Deciding to push Piccolo to the background was a horrible and unfair idea but I will say that they executed it fairly well.

What do you mean by unfair?

The whole last arc of DB was building up to Piccolo, and while he had a good run as a villain, instantly introducing Vegeta kicked Piccolo to the curb way sooner than what should have happened. Toriyama just did so much work developing Piccolo, giving him a great backstory, amazing powers, and showing his transformation into a hero. Piccolo didn't even survive long enough to fight the main villain, which even Kuririn did, he was dead during the search for the Namekian DB's, he didn't stand a chance against the Androids, when he finally got to be on par with a SSJ Vegeta and Cell showed up almost instantly and pushed him to the background before he could even have a lengthy fight with 17, he wasn't able to do anything against Cell, and he was relegated to being a babysitter for Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc. Now, this may sound similar to what guys like Tenshinhan and Yamcha have gone through, but Piccolo was intended to stick around as Goku's foil for a long time and simply got tossed aside too quickly.

I dunno. While Piccolo was never again Goku's foil in terms of combat, he definitely filled the role otherwise. Unlike Yamcha, who descended into the realm of comically pathetic (he got in two fights in Z and lost both), and Tenshinhan who was written out of the series outright (the number of scenes he has with Goku in Z can be counted on one hand), Piccolo became Goku's most trusted ally throughout the end of the series and in a way ended up being the real backbone of the team. While he never got to play a significant role in the fights against Vegeta and Freeza, both the Saiyan and Freeza arcs were big for him emotionally with the discovery of his humanity and his roots. His emotional development continued in the Cell arc when he rejoined Kami, and while he was not the star of the show as a fighter he was, briefly, the most powerful character in the story and came full circle as a father-figure to Gohan. Gohan doesn't want to fight Cell dressed as his father, he asked to be dressed like Piccolo. And in the Buu saga, while his role could be dismissed as "baby sitter," he is the person Goku entrusts to train Goten and Trunks and he is still there at the 11th hour.

So while it's true that he was never really portrayed as a true physical rival to Goku he definitely remained a primary foil and one of the most central characters in the story.

[kinisking]

I'll do a few from supers stand point.

Bringing back Freeza was a good idea done horribly. They could've showed us his training, extended the time, and made it so that his training tried to mirror Gokus as much as possible and I would have loved it.

Evil Goku was a bad idea done amazingly. His character was phenomenal. Finally we get a villian that doesn't constantly lose his shit.

Gohan retiring from fighting could've been executed much better. I think an episode like 52 should've been done much sooner and he should've had a better showing in Rof. Not that it matters anymore .

A god of destruction was a decent idea (not necessarily bad but it could've been worse ) which was executed amazingly with Beerus and Champa. I just love their irresponsible attitudes and how neutral they can be.

Dragonball Supers retelling arcs was a good idea done in a horrible way. They really could've taken the chance to make these into proper arcs and totally change them. Instead, it just felt dragged out .

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Remember when I said this?

When most people say "good idea, bad execution", what they really mean is "That sucked, but I bet some other potential version of that may be good in an alternate universe".

It applies perfectly to your example.

Bringing back Freeza was a good idea done horribly. They could've showed us his training, extended the time, and made it so that his training tried to mirror Gokus as much as possible and I would have loved it.

You say that bringing back Freeza was a good idea... only that was only a vague piece of the actual idea. The actual idea is "Freeza comes back, unlocks a new transformation, goes to Earth, fights Goku and Vegeta, loses". If you think that's a good idea, then you have a point.

Evil Goku was a bad idea done amazingly. His character was phenomenal. Finally we get a villain that doesn't constantly lose his shit.

This is the exact same thing in reverse. "Evil Goku" is a microscopic piece, not an entire idea. The actual idea is "Kaioshin apprentice becomes evil, steals Goku's body, finds his future self (who becomes immortal), and attempts to kill all humans, but is stopped by our heroes (more or less)!".

Dragonball Supers retelling arcs was a good idea done in a horrible way. They really could've taken the chance to make these into proper arcs and totally change them. Instead, it just felt dragged out .

This is actually a proper example of the bad execution of otherwise (debatably) fine ideas.

[kinisking]

I think I know what you're getting at jinzoningen but I'm not sure. It seems like you're only the idea of the plot as actual ideas. While imo, pretty much everything can be considered an idea for something like this. I might have misunderstood.

[ABED]

This is the exact same thing in reverse. "Evil Goku" is a microscopic piece, not an entire idea. The actual idea is "Kaioshin apprentice becomes evil, steals Goku's body, finds his future self (who becomes immortal), and attempts to kill all humans, but is stopped by our heroes (more or less)!".

They're both ideas. The former is simply more vague.

[Lord Beerus]

This the one reason for why I will always prefer DBSuper over DBGT, the latter had singlehandly the best idea to have ever grace the franchise and was utterly wasted in the trash:

The Corruption of the Dragon Balls and the Evil Dragons

The mcguffin that our heroes have been relying for so long ultimately backfires on them and have to deal with consequences of their abuse.
The story woulf have also worked masterfully as spot on perfect last arc and bookend for the franchise, the story began with the Dragon Balls and would end with them.

It's a shame that it did not live up to its potential.

^This!^

Hell, They could have cut out the first half of DBGT and focused more on developing the Evil Dragon arc better and I wouldn't hate GT with the intense passion that I do.

Thirded.

The pure concept behind the very plot device the cast has used, abused and took for granted coming back to bit them in the ass was a perfect way to cap of GT and franchise. The pure idea of the Shadow Dragons made them the ideal candidate final villain for any kind of Dragon Ball story. It just feels so cumulative that the story began with the Dragon Balls and ends with them being a threat to the universe. And it helps that Old Kai remonstrated the main cast for how they abuse the Dragon Balls in the Majin Boo arc, so in reality, the Shadow Dragon were bound happen at one point or another at in Dragon Ball and it wouldn't have felt out of place at all because it was foreshadowed. Overall, everything about the Shadow Dragons on paper was fucking brilliant. It really could have been the greatest arc in all of Dragon Ball. And it really is such a shame that such an ingenious idea never had all of its potential utilised. It's such a damn shame that the show never used the idea beyond the concept of giving Goku some fodder to defeat.

C'est la vie.