The Vegeta example isn't clunky. An argument might be made that it's not as direct, but it's not clunky just reading it and I don't recall the delivery being bad either. When a lot of Kai detractors point to Kai's use of overly flowery dialog, they will point to Freeza's dialog. To them, I say that it's a nice bit of characterization and differentiates Freeza as someone who says 40 words when 4 would do because he's erudite and loves to hear himself speak.thaman91 wrote:Objectivity as a general concept is real. The problem is that "good" is inherently an opinionated thing. You can objectively talk about how well a DVD is encoded, because there are concrete ways to measure that. You can define your criteria for judging something as "how close is this translated from the source material" and then objectively make conclusions about that. But when your criteria is how "good" something is....well, then no amount of logic and reasoning can evade that fact that it's rooted in subjectivity. Going back to the criteria of "how close is this translated from the source material", you can subjectively define that as your definition of "good" and then use logic and reasoning to argue how close something is to the source material. However, the very foundations of your position are still just opinions.ABED wrote:Yeah there does. Objectivity is about recognizing there's a reality that exists independent of people's opinions, and the way one acquires knowledge of it is through logic and reason.No, but there still don't appear to be well-defined criteria.It's not objectively bad dialogue and it doesn't clash with the characters and visuals. As for your question, maybe it's because he still has a bit of Japanese Goku in him. And that makes for an interesting dub experience. We are introduced to Goku as this supposedly selfless guy who always does the right thing. But throughout the show, there are moments where he admits that he likes fighting. And it's fascinating to see that by the Buu arc, it becomes very obvious that he does things just for fighting's sake or pride. From a dub-only perspective, it makes for an interesting discussion. Did Goku become less and less pure as the series goes on? Or was he always like this? Or did he simply begin to embrace his Saiyan heritage more? Either way, I find it to be a compelling journey from beginning to end (that is, beginning of Z dub to end of Z dub).It is objectively bad dialog. The dialog clashes with the characters and the visuals. If Goku is supposedly this superhero as the dub would like you to believe, why is he letting bad guys go all the time?No it's married to good dialogue that fits the visuals and the dub versions of the characters. It complements the dialogue well and creates themes that enhance what's happening on screen. Though I'll admit that there's probably some truth to the producers not trusting the rest of the show enough and trying to over-compensate with constant music. Once in a while, I do wish it would be silent. But for the most part, it's not an issue.Yes I can. I've already posted it, but here it is again:Other than Freeza, can you recall another instance of this?sometimes traded sentence fluency for accuracy.
Old dub, Vegeta says: "Let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear?!"
Kai dub, Vegeta says: "I am curious, are androids capable of feeling anything akin to real fear?!"
To me, the Kai line is more clunky. And the Kai dub is full of these kinds of lines. Maybe they're more true to the original versions of the characters, but I think that they're sometimes too sophisticated and information-heavy, and sound somewhat unnatural, despite the better voice acting. And again, to reiterate, I still love Kai and how it brings the show closer to the spirit of the original.
What's your basis for saying "good is inherently subjective"?
Lastly, Goku's dialog does clash with the visuals. Of course the dub Goku will have Japanese Goku (i.e. the actual Goku) in him as the visuals and story dictate that regardless of whatever dialog the dub puts in his mouth. You are trying so hard to justify the change as creating some new experience instead of seeing it for what it is - the US producers trying to impose western ethics on a character who doesn't live by that code and never did. That compelling journey isn't even a journey on the dub's terms. It's purely a contradiction created by the dub writers.
