Kai vs. Z Dub

[ABED]

Huh what? That implies he would have let them loose himself if they didn't happen naturally. He's not Vegeta

He would have. He did things like that before. He let Vegeta go because he wanted a fight. Same with Piccolo. He's explicit about that.

So you're saying that dub Freeza's personality doesn't match the gentlemanly mannerisms of the original version's Freeza. Well okay then. But you haven't actually demonstrated a contradiction within the dub itself since those mannerisms don't exist in the dub to begin with.

The mannerisms exist because they were animated, but his dub personality doesn't match the visuals. He was originally animated and written to be a uppercrust space dictator who's almost gentlemanly. In the dub, he's a cartoonish evil creature that spouts cheesy jokes and generic evil lines.

Well, when we start to see more and more about how a good fight makes him excited (especially in the Buu arc) and how it influences his actions to the point where he puts people's lives in danger, that's new information we're given about the character. And with this new information, we can perhaps think that this was always a part of Goku to begin with, or that it's become more prominent over the years. And before you respond about how Goku was always like that, I'm talking about dub Goku.

It's not new. Goku lets Piccolo go even after almost losing a close fight because he wanted a good fight and someone to keep him on his toes. He lets Vegeta go because he was overwhelmed by Vegeta and wants Vegeta alive to push him to get better so he can defeat him without help. He's always putting people's lives in danger for the sake of a fight. The big difference is the level of the threat. Forget about the dialog for a second and think solely about his actions.

[thaman91]

So you're saying that dub Freeza's personality doesn't match the gentlemanly mannerisms of the original version's Freeza. Well okay then. But you haven't actually demonstrated a contradiction within the dub itself since those mannerisms don't exist in the dub to begin with.

The mannerisms exist because they were animated, but his dub personality doesn't match the visuals. He was originally animated and written to be a uppercrust space dictator who's almost gentlemanly. In the dub, he's a cartoonish evil creature that spouts cheesy jokes and generic evil lines.

Forget that the original Japanese version exists for a moment. And just imagine that you've only seen the DBZ dub. You're honestly telling me that you could pick up on his animation as being more suited to a gentlemanly type of villain? Really? Really? And you would be able to go so far as to call his animation vs. his dialogue a contradiction? That seems like quite the far-fetched argument.

Well, when we start to see more and more about how a good fight makes him excited (especially in the Buu arc) and how it influences his actions to the point where he puts people's lives in danger, that's new information we're given about the character. And with this new information, we can perhaps think that this was always a part of Goku to begin with, or that it's become more prominent over the years. And before you respond about how Goku was always like that, I'm talking about dub Goku.

It's not new! Goku lets Piccolo go even after almost losing a close fight because he wanted a good fight and someone to keep him on his toes. He lets Vegeta go because he was overwhelmed by Vegeta and wants Vegeta alive to push him to get better so he can defeat him without help. He's always putting people's lives in danger for the sake of a fight. The big difference is the level of the threat. Forget about the dialog and think solely about his actions.

Let's focus on DUB DBZ without bringing DB into this. In the dub, he lets Vegeta go because he says that killing him would make them no different to Vegeta. I'm not going to forget about the dialogue when we're having a discussion about the dub. So when we start to get a different kind of reasoning for these actions (as given to us in the dub), it's new information we're being given about the dub character that can make us see him in a new light (again, in the dub). Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm not taking the events of the Dragon Ball dub into consideration here. I'm simply analyzing the old DBZ dub in the context of it being the first one to hit North American airways and it being its own thing.

[jjgp1112]

The thing is, this dub interpretation of Goku's character shouldn't even exist in the first place. The impact and divide Funi's dub created just in something as simple as discussing the series with different people is precisely why their changes have been so frowned upon to begin with. Information and the social factors are a pretty significant factor in the fandom for people like us, and discovering that something was different or altered may change your feelings on the dub just for the simple fact that you were misled from what was originally there. That's part of why I've gone from the opposite end of the spectrum after being one of the more vocal pro-dub guys on here.

[ABED]

Forget that the original Japanese version exists for a moment. And just imagine that you've only seen the DBZ dub. You're honestly telling me that you could pick up on his animation as being more suited to a gentlemanly type of villain? Really? Really? And you would be able to go so far as to call his animation vs. his dialogue a contradiction? That seems like quite the far-fetched argument.

My ability to pick up on that isn't relevant. The animation and characterization should be integrated regardless of the audience's awareness of that fact.

Let's focus on DUB DBZ without bringing DB into this. In the dub, he lets Vegeta go because he says that killing him would make them no different to Vegeta. I'm not going to forget about the dialogue when we're having a discussion about the dub. So when we start to get a different kind of reasoning for these actions (as given to us in the dub), it's new information we're being given about the dub character that can make us see him in a new light (again, in the dub). Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm not taking the events of the Dragon Ball dub into consideration here. I'm simply analyzing the old DBZ dub in the context of it being the first one to hit North American airways and it being its own thing.

So you justify the change by dismissing the first part of the story? It's only new to the audience because they don't know what came before. And even in the Buu arc, it's not remotely new. Goku lets Gero finish the cyborgs when if saving the world was his main aim, his strategy for it was a truly awful idea.

[Metalwario64]

The thing is, this dub interpretation of Goku's character shouldn't even exist in the first place. The impact and divide Funi's dub created just in something as simple as discussing the series with different people is precisely why their changes have been so frowned upon to begin with. Information and the social factors are a pretty significant factor in the fandom for people like us, and discovering that something was different or altered may change your feelings on the dub just for the simple fact that you were misled from what was originally there. That's part of why I've gone from the opposite end of the spectrum after being one of the more vocal pro-dub guys on here.

Same here, though I suppose for me it was an easy transition to make, since I had seen a decent chunk of the Japanese version through "OMG FULL EPS" back in the old Geocities days, as well as the old Super Famicom and PSX Dragon Ball games from Japan.

To be honest, in the old days when I condoned the dub, I was just trying to "fool myself" into thinking it was okay, since the Japanese music was restored via the Orange Bricks (I was also being kind of immature at that time, despite being 18-19 years old), but I started watching more of it in Japanese, and then started doing so exclusively when the Dragon Boxes came out, and then when Kai's dub hit, it was the dub that I always wanted (well, after I grew up a bit, because when I was a kid I couldn't tell bad acting from good ).

[8000 Saiyan]

The thing is, this dub interpretation of Goku's character shouldn't even exist in the first place. The impact and divide Funi's dub created just in something as simple as discussing the series with different people is precisely why their changes have been so frowned upon to begin with. Information and the social factors are a pretty significant factor in the fandom for people like us, and discovering that something was different or altered may change your feelings on the dub just for the simple fact that you were misled from what was originally there. That's part of why I've gone from the opposite end of the spectrum after being one of the more vocal pro-dub guys on here.

Same here, though I suppose for me it was an easy transition to make, since I had seen a decent chunk of the Japanese version through "OMG FULL EPS" back in the old Geocities days, as well as the old Super Famicom and PSX Dragon Ball games from Japan.

To be honest, in the old days when I condoned the dub, I was just trying to "fool myself" into thinking it was okay, since the Japanese music was restored via the Orange Bricks (I was also being kind of immature at that time, despite being 18-19 years old), but I started watching more of it in Japanese, and then started doing so exclusively when the Dragon Boxes came out, and then when Kai's dub hit, it was the dub that I always wanted (well, after I grew up a bit, because when I was a kid I couldn't tell bad acting from good ).

You must regret those days.

[thaman91]

The thing is, this dub interpretation of Goku's character shouldn't even exist in the first place. The impact and divide Funi's dub created just in something as simple as discussing the series with different people is precisely why their changes have been so frowned upon to begin with. Information and the social factors are a pretty significant factor in the fandom for people like us, and discovering that something was different or altered may change your feelings on the dub just for the simple fact that you were misled from what was originally there. That's part of why I've gone from the opposite end of the spectrum after being one of the more vocal pro-dub guys on here.

Well that's fair enough. I actually agree with you that dub Goku shouldn't exist in the first place and dubbing companies shouldn't be trying to "reversion" their shows. I guess where we differ is that I'm okay with the product itself, independent of the misguided context under which it was produced.

Forget that the original Japanese version exists for a moment. And just imagine that you've only seen the DBZ dub. You're honestly telling me that you could pick up on his animation as being more suited to a gentlemanly type of villain? Really? Really? And you would be able to go so far as to call his animation vs. his dialogue a contradiction? That seems like quite the far-fetched argument.

My ability to pick up on that isn't relevant. The animation and characterization should be integrated regardless of the audience's awareness of that fact.

And you simply claiming that the animation only works for a gentlemanly personality is not relevant to the "objective reality" of whether or not that's actually the case. It may have been animated with that in mind, but there is absolutely nothing in the dub universe that suggests that Freeza's dub personality conflicts with his physical animated mannerisms.

Let's focus on DUB DBZ without bringing DB into this. In the dub, he lets Vegeta go because he says that killing him would make them no different to Vegeta. I'm not going to forget about the dialogue when we're having a discussion about the dub. So when we start to get a different kind of reasoning for these actions (as given to us in the dub), it's new information we're being given about the dub character that can make us see him in a new light (again, in the dub). Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm not taking the events of the Dragon Ball dub into consideration here. I'm simply analyzing the old DBZ dub in the context of it being the first one to hit North American airways and it being its own thing.

So you justify the change by dismissing the first part of the story? It's only new to the audience because they don't know what came before. And even in the Buu arc, it's not remotely new. Goku lets Gero finish the cyborgs when if saving the world was his main aim, his strategy for it was a truly awful idea.

As I've said over and over again, I'm not "justifying" the change nor am I "dismissing" the first part of the story. The original show is the original show and the original story is the original story. I'm talking about the original DBZ dub on its own. I'm simply saying that if you look at the DBZ dub as its own thing (which was its original context so it's fair to discuss it as such) then Goku's personality works and develops over the course of the show. And doesn't dub Goku justify letting Gero finish the androids because "he hadn't done anything wrong yet"? So in the context of the dub, the Buu era stuff (hell, even giving Cell a senzu bean to be "fair") is kind of new.

[ABED]

It may have been animated with that in mind, but there is absolutely nothing in the dub universe that suggests that Freeza's dub personality conflicts with his physical animated mannerisms.

But it does. They don't mesh. It might be subtle, but it's there if you look for it. Perhaps contradict isn't the right word, but they don't fit perfectly.

I'm talking about the original DBZ dub on its own. I'm simply saying that if you look at the DBZ dub as its own thing (which was its original context so it's fair to discuss it as such) then Goku's personality works and develops over the course of the show. And doesn't dub Goku justify letting Gero finish the androids because "he hadn't done anything wrong yet"? So in the context of the dub, the Buu era stuff (hell, even giving Cell a senzu bean to be "fair") is kind of new.

So in order to justify saying Goku's personality changed, we have to dismiss DB entirely. So in order for this scenario to work, FUNi shouldn't have dubbed DB. Goku's justification in the dub is still a HORRIBLE justification. Okay, don't kill the guy, but you can stop him with minimal force. Besides, Gero had done something wrong, he was a willing member of the Red Ribbon Army and if I recall, according to the dub, he was an important member of the RRA.

[Metalwario64]

The thing is, this dub interpretation of Goku's character shouldn't even exist in the first place. The impact and divide Funi's dub created just in something as simple as discussing the series with different people is precisely why their changes have been so frowned upon to begin with. Information and the social factors are a pretty significant factor in the fandom for people like us, and discovering that something was different or altered may change your feelings on the dub just for the simple fact that you were misled from what was originally there. That's part of why I've gone from the opposite end of the spectrum after being one of the more vocal pro-dub guys on here.

Same here, though I suppose for me it was an easy transition to make, since I had seen a decent chunk of the Japanese version through "OMG FULL EPS" back in the old Geocities days, as well as the old Super Famicom and PSX Dragon Ball games from Japan.

To be honest, in the old days when I condoned the dub, I was just trying to "fool myself" into thinking it was okay, since the Japanese music was restored via the Orange Bricks (I was also being kind of immature at that time, despite being 18-19 years old), but I started watching more of it in Japanese, and then started doing so exclusively when the Dragon Boxes came out, and then when Kai's dub hit, it was the dub that I always wanted (well, after I grew up a bit, because when I was a kid I couldn't tell bad acting from good ).

You must regret those days.

Yep.

[Kaboom]

Oh you know how it is, guys. It's not really a bad dub, it's just "alternative accuracy."

Seriously though, why in the world should anyone treat the old Z dub's inaccurate portrayals of the characters as anything but exactly that, inaccurate portrayals?

When the real Son Goku is a simple guy who protects his friends yet wants a challenge above all else, but the English dub's "Goku" is a champion of goodness who spares his foes out of sympathy and gives grandiose speeches about justice... then the dub got it wrong. When the real Freeza is a posh and proper aristocrat who speaks politely to you just before he shoots you through the heart, but the English dub's "Frieza" screeches non-sequiturs and makes creepy come-ons towards the heroes... then the dub got it wrong.

That's all there is to it. There's portrayals of the characters accurate to how they're originally written, and then there's getting the characters wrong. As always, it's fine to still enjoy those wrong portrayals if you want, but treating them as if they're just "a different take" just seems backwards and completely bonkers.

[Metalwario64]

Oh you know how it is, guys. It's not really a bad dub, it's just "alternative accuracy."

Seriously though, why in the world should anyone treat the old Z dub's inaccurate portrayals of the characters as anything but exactly that, inaccurate portrayals?

When the real Son Goku is a simple guy who protects his friends yet wants a challenge above all else, but the English dub's "Goku" is a champion of goodness who spares his foes out of sympathy and gives grandiose speeches about justice... then the dub got it wrong. When the real Freeza is a posh and proper aristocrat who speaks politely to you just before he shoots you through the heart, but the English dub's "Frieza" screeches non-sequiturs and makes creepy come-ons towards the heroes... then the dub got it wrong.

That's all there is to it. There's portrayals of the characters accurate to how they're originally written, and then there's getting the characters wrong. As always, it's fine to still enjoy those wrong portrayals if you want, but treating them as if they're just "a different take" just seems backwards and completely bonkers.

The crazy thing is, I still see people who insist that the English dub says "the same things" as the Japanese version, just worded differently.

[thaman91]

It may have been animated with that in mind, but there is absolutely nothing in the dub universe that suggests that Freeza's dub personality conflicts with his physical animated mannerisms.

But it does. They don't mesh. It might be subtle, but it's there if you look for it. Perhaps contradict isn't the right word, but they don't fit perfectly.

How does it not mesh? What rule is there that subtle gentlemanly mannerisms have to be paired with a gentlemanly personality in order for it to be considered "objectively good"?

I'm talking about the original DBZ dub on its own. I'm simply saying that if you look at the DBZ dub as its own thing (which was its original context so it's fair to discuss it as such) then Goku's personality works and develops over the course of the show. And doesn't dub Goku justify letting Gero finish the androids because "he hadn't done anything wrong yet"? So in the context of the dub, the Buu era stuff (hell, even giving Cell a senzu bean to be "fair") is kind of new.

So in order to justify saying Goku's personality changed, we have to dismiss DB entirely. So in order for this scenario to work, FUNi shouldn't have dubbed DB. Goku's justification in the dub is still a HORRIBLE justification. Okay, don't kill the guy, but you can stop him with minimal force. Besides, Gero had done something wrong, he was a willing member of the Red Ribbon Army and if I recall, according to the dub, he was an important member of the RRA.

Well we have to look at the DBZ dub for what it is: a product of its time. If we factor the Dragon Ball dub into it, then things get muddy because that show was dubbed later on and the dubbing accuracy was increased significantly. And so, the viewing experience from DB dub to DBZ dub is not a consistent one. That's definitely a fair criticism to make of the entire dub as a whole should you want to watch it that way. That being said, I'm viewing the old DBZ dub (as I've said over and over and over again) as its own thing, in essentially the same context under which it was first introduced.

Regarding the Gero thing, dub Goku's point was that they couldn't just go kill him for a crime he hadn't committed yet. It's not a character inconsistency, like you're claiming, but I will say that it doesn't make much plot sense (since, as you said, they could just go stop him from making the androids instead of killing him). As a counterpoint though, I believe the dub did have a better plot explanation for why Cell survives his self destruction than the original Japanese version.

Oh you know how it is, guys. It's not really a bad dub, it's just "alternative accuracy."

Seriously though, why in the world should anyone treat the old Z dub's inaccurate portrayals of the characters as anything but exactly that, inaccurate portrayals?

When the real Son Goku is a simple guy who protects his friends yet wants a challenge above all else, but the English dub's "Goku" is a champion of goodness who spares his foes out of sympathy and gives grandiose speeches about justice... then the dub got it wrong. When the real Freeza is a posh and proper aristocrat who speaks politely to you just before he shoots you through the heart, but the English dub's "Frieza" screeches non-sequiturs and makes creepy come-ons towards the heroes... then the dub got it wrong.

That's all there is to it. There's portrayals of the characters accurate to how they're originally written, and then there's getting the characters wrong. As always, it's fine to still enjoy those wrong portrayals if you want, but treating them as if they're just "a different take" just seems backwards and completely bonkers.

Well the entire point of anything I'm posting goes back the the "objectivity" discussion. The dub's portrayal of things is inaccurate. Of course. Does that make it "objectively bad"? Of course not. One is perfectly capable of watching the dub in its own context where the story and characters work just fine within the context of its own dub universe. I'm not trying to insist upon an "a different take" in the sense that the dub producers were trying to create alternative characters. But if one watches the original dub by itself, it's not an "objectively bad" experience.

[ABED]

How does it not mesh? What rule is there that subtle gentlemanly mannerisms have to be paired with a gentlemanly personality in order for it to be considered "objectively good"?

Does it make sense for gentlemanly mannerism to be paired with a cartoonish villain making cheesy non-sequiters and come-ons? Good storytelling requires integration.

Regarding the Gero thing, dub Goku's point was that they couldn't just go kill him for a crime he hadn't committed yet. It's not a character inconsistency, like you're claiming, but I will say that it doesn't make much plot sense (since, as you said, they could just go stop him from making the androids instead of killing him). As a counterpoint though, I believe the dub did have a better plot explanation for why Cell survives his self destruction than the original Japanese version.

It is inconsistent since while a superhero may not kill a guy before they do something evil, they would still try to prevent it from happening instead of waiting for something to happen before intervening. If the dub's characterization of Goku is a moralizing warrior for all that is good and protector of the innocent, then not stopping the bad guy pre-emptively even if non-violently, is a contradiction. How good of a hero can he be if his means of protecting innocent people is to let the threat arise.

[Bansho64]

Yeah, Kai wins by a landslide for me. The voice acting is near perfect, both soundtracks in either version of Kai wrecks the crap outta the old techno sounding Faulconer music, and it overall just feels better.

I'm honestly in a place of hardly no understanding when I hear people say that Kai's acting is apparently full of "no character" and "phoned in". For example,
I've heard people say this is way better than this and that this is crap compared to this.

[8000 Saiyan]

Yeah, Kai wins by a landslide for me. The voice acting is near perfect, both soundtracks in either version of Kai wrecks the crap outta the old techno sounding Faulconer music, and it overall just feels better.

I'm honestly in a place of hardly no understanding when I hear people say that Kai's acting is apparently full of "no character" and "phoned in". For example,
I've heard people say this is way better than this and that this is crap compared to this.

It's just nostalgia and nothing more. Even Schemmel and Sabat disliked their work on Z.

[thaman91]

How does it not mesh? What rule is there that subtle gentlemanly mannerisms have to be paired with a gentlemanly personality in order for it to be considered "objectively good"?

Does it make sense for gentlemanly mannerism to be paired with a cartoonish villain making cheesy non-sequiters and come-ons? Good storytelling requires integration.

The contrast can make him even creepier. We have a creepy sounding and monstrous appearing villain. But to have him physically act somewhat more gentlemanly can create even more tension. Again, I'm not insisting on that as the "objectively correct" interpretation. But it can work. Although, whether or not the mannerisms are even noticeable is debatable.

And remember, Yoda is a supposedly a "great warrior" and powerful in the Force. Yet, he is small and backwards-talking. There is a contrast in his appearance with his abilities & reputation. Contrast is therefore not a bad thing. You don't have to have subtle gentlemanly mannerisms paired with posh aristocratic speech for something to work.

Regarding the Gero thing, dub Goku's point was that they couldn't just go kill him for a crime he hadn't committed yet. It's not a character inconsistency, like you're claiming, but I will say that it doesn't make much plot sense (since, as you said, they could just go stop him from making the androids instead of killing him). As a counterpoint though, I believe the dub did have a better plot explanation for why Cell survives his self destruction than the original Japanese version.

It is inconsistent since while a superhero may not kill a guy before they do something evil, they would still try to prevent it from happening instead of waiting for something to happen before intervening. If the dub's characterization of Goku is a moralizing warrior for all that is good and protector of the innocent, then not stopping the bad guy pre-emptively even if non-violently, is a contradiction. How good of a hero can he be if his means of protecting innocent people is to let the threat arise.

...Or it could be that he secretly just wants to let Gero make the androids since his dub version has stated before that he enjoys fighting. Remember, you're saying he's a superhero. You can't use your own opinion as evidence of a contradiction.

Yeah, Kai wins by a landslide for me. The voice acting is near perfect, both soundtracks in either version of Kai wrecks the crap outta the old techno sounding Faulconer music, and it overall just feels better.

Fair enough if you feel that way. I do agree that the voice acting is better in Kai. And overall, it's the dub that provides the more cohesive and accurate experience. As for the music, I'd probably give the edge to Yamamoto's over Faulconer's. As for Kikuchi's, I started liking his music less and less as the original Dragon Ball progressed. I'd rate his Z stuff below both Yamamoto and Faulconer (they....erm...."wreck the crap out of that old" horror-y Kikuchi music, and overall just feel better).

[Bansho64]

(they....erm...."wreck the crap out of that old" horror-y Kikuchi music, and overall just feel better).

I never really got the whole "horror 50's sounding" complaints that I hear from so many people. I feel like people just slam the 50's label on him because he actually uses trumpets and other instruments from that era. The horror complaints, I guess I kinda understand them when they're about the Kikuchi tracks that genuinely sound like they're going for a creepy feel. But, if anything, that's a compliment considering that's what they genuinely sound like they were goin for. And they succeed if you ask me.

On the other hand, the Faulconer soundtrack has a certain techno feel that just sounds really dated and cheesy imo. The synthy sound just sounds really annoying in a bunch of scenes when the soundtrack just drones on and on.

[thaman91]

I never really got the whole "horror 50's sounding" complaints that I hear from so many people. I feel like people just slam the 50's label on him because he actually uses trumpets and other instruments from that era. The horror complaints, I guess I kinda understand them when they're about the Kikuchi tracks that genuinely sound like they're going for a creepy feel. But, if anything, that's a compliment considering that's what they genuinely sound like they were goin for. And they succeed if you ask me.

I was mostly not being serious with the "horror" remark (I've heard the critique too, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about music to really comment on it). My main issue with Kikuchi's Z tracks are that they bore me and sound repetitive. Like I tried watching early Z with the Kikuchi score, and got so irritated with that Piccolo theme (often used as a recap theme in Kikuchi Kai). I can't even explain why. It's either the music itself that bothers me or the repetition that gets on my nerves. But I'm leaning towards the latter. I was mostly fine with his score in Dragon Ball though, in terms of both placement and usage frequency.

On the other hand, the Faulconer soundtrack has a certain techno feel that just sounds really dated and cheesy imo. The synthy sound just sounds really annoying in a bunch of scenes when the soundtrack just drones on and on. It's not even the fact that they're used synths. Tons of amazing songs use synths (Example- When Doves Cry). When I hear the Faulconer tracks...... It just sounds sounds cheesy (not even the good kind).

We can agree to disagree I guess. Although I do agree that the degree to which it mickey-mouses can get annoying at times; I say that even as a fan of the Faulconer score in the dub. Like there don't need to be high-pitched sounds to accompany when characters blink. Those kinds of moments annoy me as well. As for the "techno" feel, I guess some tracks feel that way. But the score (if you've actually listened to the whole thing), is actually quite varied. There are tracks that can accompany just about any type of scene. And they really don't all sound "techno", at least IMO. These are some of the ones I like:
1.) Super Buu's theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfYK0H9vAiU
2.) Uub in the Tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjo09lnUIJQ
3.) Pikkon's theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCWqAyh9IHw
4.) Heaven Sent Trunks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOgv1RBbD2Q
5.) Gohan Powers Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boD8YwSOp70

[ABED]

...Or it could be that he secretly just wants to let Gero make the androids since his dub version has stated before that he enjoys fighting. Remember, you're saying he's a superhero. You can't use your own opinion as evidence of a contradiction.

But dub Goku does make grandstanding statements about doing the right thing and then there moments like his "ally to good" speech. It's there and has nothing to do with my opinion. His actions in the show contradict his statements in the dub. He's not out to stand up for the good and the innocent.

And remember, Yoda is a supposedly a "great warrior" and powerful in the Force. Yet, he is small and backwards-talking

Not his appearance, his ACTIONS!It's not about his design, but his mannerisms.

The contrast can make him even creepier.

There's already a contrast in the original character. His polite and posh exterior and mannerisms are the cover of a vicious monster. There's absolutely nothing creepy about Young's performance. It's all about execution and neither the writing in the dub nor her performance are actually creepy. I'm certain the people writing that it is weren't actually creeped out by it.

[thaman91]

...Or it could be that he secretly just wants to let Gero make the androids since his dub version has stated before that he enjoys fighting. Remember, you're saying he's a superhero. You can't use your own opinion as evidence of a contradiction.

But dub Goku does make grandstanding statements about doing the right thing and then there moments like his "ally to good" speech. It's there and has nothing to do with my opinion. His actions in the show contradict his statements in the dub. He's not out to stand up for the good and the innocent.

He does, but he makes them at a time when he feels a heightened sense of purpose when fighting Freeza. That fact plus prior evidence of him enjoying fighting make his actions make sense. But I'll concede that it is a plot contrivance.

And remember, Yoda is a supposedly a "great warrior" and powerful in the Force. Yet, he is small and backwards-talking

Not his appearance, his ACTIONS!It's not about his design, but his mannerisms.

The point is that the simple fact of there being a contrast does not automatically make something bad. That's a rather simplistic thing to claim.

The contrast can make him even creepier.

There's already a contrast in the original character. His polite and posh exterior and mannerisms are the cover of a vicious monster. There's absolutely nothing creepy about Young's performance. It's all about execution and neither the writing in the dub nor her performance are actually creepy. I'm certain the people writing that it is weren't actually creeped out by it.

Ahem.....There's absolutely something creepy about Young's performance. It's all about execution and both the writing and her performance are creepy. Anyway, I'm going to keep tying all this back to your "objectively bad" claim so that people understand what I'm actually arguing. Just because you don't find it creepy, doesn't make that the "truth" nor does constitute "objectively bad".