The Escalation of Big Bads! A Necessary Evil or an Outdated Story Trope?

[Orb]

Hey Y'all! My first topic and so I decided to think something given DB Super. I figured this topic kinda addressed the entire franchise rather than just DB Super so I created it here!

So a common element of Dragon ball is the escalation of Big Bads. A new, more powerful baddie shows up one after another. It was a pretty believable escalation of big bads in the beginning . You start with a trio (Pilaf Gang), you move into a whole army and then the Devil! (Piccolo). Along the way you stories like the Tournaments which served fun action and adventure without having a necessarily "evil bad guy". But after reaching Frieza/Freeza/Freezer/Fridge the threats seem to get larger beyond belief. I began to wonder if Cell was a successful "escalation". Obviously I'm not talking just Power levels here (I dont care for them) but rather his place in the grand mythology of Dragon Ball and the impact of his character. Frieza capped off the story pretty well with him being pretty closely tied to the foundational mythos of the whole story (Planet Vegeta/ Goku's Origins). Cell was a remnant of the past in a different way (The RRR) but was the grand story a successful follow up? (Curious in ya'll opinion on this)

Given where the story is now with Super, I have loved the episodes don't seem to tie closely to a bad guy formula. I enjoyed the Champa arc and I loved the Future Trunks arc (Particularly the Black/Zamasu combo) but I LOVED the character stories for which I watch the show for (Basically the episodes 68-76). I was thinking perhaps the escalation has become a tired old trope and now it is a time to "shake things up"? This is specifically why I am enjoying the Universal Survival arc. There is no clear "evil" to fight but rather a dire situation from which everyone must overcome. This also gives other characters to shine and to see the stories expand beyond the main heroes (Pride Troopers/Gods etc). Perhaps its time to tell different kinds of stories? I would argue for more character based sorties or at least the drama and stakes are risen from personal drama or choices rather than an exterior force (ala EPs 68-76). I would ague that some of Toei's best work comes from this (Bardock Special/ History of trunks)

I would be interested to know y'all opinions on the this trope and whether Dragon Ball has successfully used (or abused) it, especially given in the original run. Where do you see the future going?

[ABED]

I don't think the trope of the big bad is outdated nor a "necessary evil". Like anything else, it's a matter of execution. I would like to see DB mix it up a bit.

[MozillaVulpix]

I think the Big Bads have always escalated in a way. Even if it's not always a clear step up, it at least deviates sideways to make sure 1) it's clear as to why they're stronger and 2) they wouldn't necessarily show up until now. Cell and the Androids had the whole time travel aspect, Buu had magic, GT had the Machine Mutants and the positive and negative energy in the last arc, and Super has the multiverse aspect. The moment we found out Zamasu was from Universe 10, it explained why he wasn't a threat until we knew the 12 universes existed. Same with Champa and U6. Really, the Big Bad that fits in the least is probably Beerus. He's just another god, and equal to Kaioshin in rank, but can somehow give SSJ3 Goku a challenge.

Super (and Dragon Ball) doesn't necessarily need Big Bads. But they're pretty good markers to make it feel like the story is always progressing into something new. What's the point of Goku getting a new form if he doesn't have something never-before-seen to test it on? And what's the point of following the story if nothing is actually moving forward? I mean, episodic content is fun, but it's not what this series is known for.

[ABED]

I like quests like hunting for the DB's. It allows the story to move forward and gives room for plenty of reversals. It also allows the weaker characters to contribute to the story in a meaningful way.

[sintzu]

I think it was done well overall.

Cell was made up of the Cells of the strongest fighters which put him above Freeza in a logical way. Buu was a demon who's been around since the dawn of time, feeding on the evil of the universe which like Cell, logically puts him above everyone before him. Zamasu being a Kai also feels like a logical next step in the villain chain.

It remains to be seen how they handle the next villain but considering how long in took them to introduce Zamasu, it seems like they know they don't have too many options so they're mixing things up with tournaments, nutrule characters like Beerus and resurrected villains like Freeeza.

I think at some point they should go up against Whis' father and the angles but that should be at the very end, we should get at least one more main villain and a tournament before.

[ABED]

If Beerus is a counterpoint to Kaioshin and Zamasu is a Kaioshin from another universe, how come they are THAT much stronger than not only the Kaioshin from Goku's universe, but Buu as well?

[Orb]

I think there's also the problem of retreading waters. I mean it took me until watching Mistarefusion's DB Dissection of the Piccolo Daimou Arc to realize that it was a retread of the RRR arc. You see retreads later in Z. Once Super Buu absorbs Gohn he pretty much becomes Cell 2.0. Buu didnt become interesting again until Kid Buu. I always wondered if Kid Buu was the right villain to end on?

EDIT: Heck I forgot to add to the main post but Battle of Gods is another example of what I'm talking about. Sure Beerus was gonna destroy the Earth at some point but his character was vastly different from the past villains.Hell he's an antagonist rather than a villain. His appearance is honestly a breathe of fresh air for Dragon Ball. He isn't exactly a ally either.

[ABED]

Mistarefusion's DB Dissection of the Piccolo Daimou Arc to realize that it was a retread of the RRR arc.

How is the Piccolo Daimao arc in ANY way a retread of the RRA arc?

[Zephyr]

I think he means that Goku's fight with Piccolo Daimao is a retread of his fight with Tao Pai Pai. He's definitely the seed that would later grow into the "big final fight" for later battle arcs, but I don't think Tao Pai Pai is a "big bad", since he was neither the head honcho nor the "final boss".

[ABED]

I think he means that Goku's fight with Piccolo Daimao is a retread of his fight with Tao Pai Pai. He's definitely the seed that would later grow into the "big final fight" for later battle arcs, but I don't think Tao Pai Pai is a "big bad", since he was neither the head honcho nor the "final boss".

Other than Goku getting decimated in the first fight against a villain, I fail to see any retread and as you pointed out, he's not the big bad.

I don't think DB needs to rethink the big bad trope, though I think US TV shows might need to, although I'm not against DB making shorter arcs of around 20 or so episodes, if that.

[Zephyr]

Other than Goku getting decimated in the first fight against a villain, I fail to see any retread

After being decimated in the first fight, he goes to Karin's to drink some water, before returning to beat the bad guy's ass.

[ABED]

Fair enough, but in one case, it's a shut out, but against Piccolo he barely eeks out a win.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, they're definitely not identical.

[KorgDTR2000]

Along the way you stories like the Tournaments which served fun action and adventure without having a necessarily "evil bad guy".

The tournament arcs had their own internal progression like this.

The first one is the only Dragon Ball arc to not have a true villain, as the final antagonist is just Kame-sennin trying to teach Goku a valuable life lesson.

The second one escalates by having actual villains in Tenshinhan, Chaozu and Tsuru-sennin, who threaten to murder the heroes.

The third one escalates even further by having a threat to the world and its people as the villain, with the tournament merely being the backdrop for the conflict.

The escalation is accompanied by progressively tighter integration into the previous plots. The first tournament arc doesn't really have anything to do with the first arc of the series, other than the awe of the incredible power demonstrated by Kame-sennin at Frypan Mountain being within Goku's grasp. The second tournament arc eventually follows up on an element of the Red Ribbon arc. The third tournament arc is a direct sequel to the preceding arc and it is a a capstone to everything that had come before.

[MajinMan]

If Beerus is a counterpoint to Kaioshin and Zamasu is a Kaioshin from another universe, how come they are THAT much stronger than not only the Kaioshin from Goku's universe, but Buu as well?

I don't know if you have seen Super at all, but the reason Zamasu is that strong is because he is a fighting genius. They make it a point that he is the strongest of all Kaio/Kaioshin. He was also a Kaio, not Kaioshin.

[ABED]

That doesn't really answer the question. It's like answering "Why is Goku a great fighter?" with "Because he's a great fighter". I guess it boils down to that universe being overall more powerful, but by that that many orders of magnitude (Pop! Pop!) stronger? Wait, he's just a Kaio, not a Kaioshin? That doesn't make it any better.

[Sandubadear]

It's necessary. Otherwise we have the JSAT. "Oh, some villains are terrorizing Tarble's planet and they're as strong as Freeza? Just let Goten and Trunks fight them then".

While Zamasu is not exactly more escalated than Beerus, the execution was good in that they couldn't just ask Beerus or Whis to defeat him, since his threat was in a different timeline, and Beerus can't time travel.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't really see the escalation of the big bads a "necessary evil" or an "outdated story trope". It still work with proper writing and creative planning. As ABED noted, it all really comes down to execution.

[ABED]

I really want to watch Super just for the Zamasu arc. It sounds intriguing.

I don't think the subsequent big bads have to be that much stronger than the previous ones. Giving the story different stakes or simply personal ones could work. Upping the stakes to the point where multiple universes hang in the balance only goes so far. What the audience really invests in are personal stakes. DB can do both.

[MajinMan]

That doesn't really answer the question. It's like answering "Why is Goku a great fighter?" with "Because he's a great fighter". I guess it boils down to that universe being overall more powerful, but by that that many orders of magnitude (Pop! Pop!) stronger? Wait, he's just a Kaio, not a Kaioshin? That doesn't make it any better.

The problem is that the show never really explains it. He is labelled as a prodigy fighting genius, and they say he spends a lot of his time refining his moves. That's about it. And without spoiling too much, Goku basically demolishes him in his Super Saiyan form, so he probably isn't even THAT much stronger than Buu.