What makes "Power Levels" worthwhile to you?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Inspired by this other thread.

A request to all who think of Power Levels/Power Scalling as an appealling element of the franchise.
I would like to know certain things, to look at it from a different perspective..

Why discussing it? Why caring about them?

What is the appeal of Power Levels/Power Scalling? Why is it important to you PL "making sense"?

Do you feel people who don't like Power Levels/Power Scalling have their facts twisted? Do you not understand how they aren't enjoying such element of the franchise?

Let's keep this clean, no twisted talk or sarcastic remarks, let's also not quote people replying to this, let everyone speak their mind this once without having to engage in the war..

Also while this thread topic is about Power Levels, it is not a VS Power Level thread or about what PL characters would have, if you want to discuss this stuff then go to this other proper thread.

[Bansho64]

Why discussing it? Why caring about them?

Why do I discuss em? Because I like em and consider them relevant to Dragon Ball.

What is the appeal of Power Levels/Power Scalling? Why is it important to you PL "making sense"?

I like the idea of the characters having a set level and working up from it to become stronger. I like that certain techniques and transformations can serve as multipliers to magnify the already existing power that the characters have. The guides are really cool ways of establishing rules like these. Plus, I'm just a numbers guy in general. As for them making sense, why wouldn't I want em to? Coherency is key imo. If a character with a seemingly low battle power is wrecking a character with an especially high one, I'm gonna wonder WTF is going on. In cases like Goku vs Jeice and Butter, this is done pretty awesomely.

Do you feel people who don't like Power Levels/Power Scalling have their facts twisted? Do you not understand how they aren't enjoying such element of the franchise?

No, I don't think they have em twisted. I also understand where they're coming from and why they aren't enjoying it. I just don't agree with their reasoning. I like the ideas of one character just simply being more powerful than another. They don't, and I'm fine with that. I'm just not that kinda guy. To me, battle powers are cool and serve to show the units of strength that the characters possess Techniques and strategies being thrown into the mix along with this is what I like.

[ABED]

Power levels gives a concrete number to a concept that's still there regardless of whether you can measure it using a device that spits out concrete numbers. I understand both extremes of the debate but my opinion lies somewhere in the middle.

[King-K9]

Power levels exist to measure how strong a character has gotten. We love seeing our favorite characters get stronger. Which is why we get so mad when they're inconsistent. We understand that long running story like Dragon ball is bound to have some inconsistent writing here and there, that's just a part of being a writer. But still, consistency is somthing I feel Dragon ball has been lacking recently. Especially when it comes to power scaling. As years go on, a writer is bound to get better at what they do. But with Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro, I feel like they've gotten worse over time. Not just with power scaling, but with storytelling in general.

As a person who wishes to become a better writer myself, I can't help but be disappointed. Especially due to the fact that Toriyama is one of the people who inspired me to take up art and writing in the first place. I want to see him improve, I want to see him do better, but if he along with an entire staff of writers cant get somthing as simple as power scaling right, I can't help but get frustrated. Is consistency hard? Yes. But it's not impossible, and I've seen Toriyama and his crew pull it off before.

Do power level debates get stupid? Yes, but they're worth talking about. When i complain about Krillin being able to fight Super saiyan Blue Goku, people tell me that i should just turn my brain off and be happy that the Z fighters are becoming relevant again. To those people I always ask: "Is bringing back characters into prominence, worth sacrificing consistency within the show's lore"? "There are better ways to bring back a character in a way that doesn't mess with the storytelling". I always tell them.

[TheMikado]

To answer this question we have to first understand the underlying theme of Dragon Ball during the "Z" era. This theme was "POWER" and power trumped all. Radditz first introduces us to this concept by how insanely strong he is. Such that Goku and Piccolo, the two most skills fighters on Earth had no chance whatsoever in a fair one on one fight.

Knowing this, the protagonists realize that they only way they can possibly overcome the next imminent threat is to prepare and power up.
Notice how in Dragon Ball, advanced notice of a very powerful threat is a recurring theme. Allowing the protagonists to prepare to meet the levels necessary to overcome the threat.

When individuals are surprised by the threat then it stands to reason that strategy would be far more important, but when you give your protagonists extended periods of preparation to exceed the power level of the threat, what do you think they are going to focus on? Getting their strategies together or building raw power. Dragon Ball focused on the latter as the means to overcome any obstacle in its "Z" portion. That's the theme of the entire experience.

Now the reason this worked serialized is because the struggle to improve actually meant something.

Goku runs 1million km on snake way
10x gravity King kai training
kaioken
Z fighters Kami training
Gohan wilderness training
Piccolo/Gohan training
Goku 100x gravity training
Potential unlocks Namek
Piccolo fusion with Nail
Vegeta Zenkais
SSJ induced through loss
3 years android training
Vegeta SSJ achieved via rage
Piccolo/Kami fusion
FSSJ, Grade Training
SSJ2 unlock via loss
Goten/Gohan training
Trunks/Vegeta training
Vegeta purposely Majin possessed
SSJ3 through otherworld training
Goten/Trunks training
Goten/Trunks Fusion & SSJ3
Ultimate Gohan
Potara Fusion forever.

Many of these were through great sacrifice, loss, or personal struggle. The level of power they achieved was more than just a measurement it was a testament to how far they had traveled in their journey to that road. Letting characters take shortcuts to that road cheapens the previous experience of those characters. The quest for POWER and overcoming adversity is a universal truth and likely why Z resonated so widely with some many people. It was the belief that if you struggled hard enough, pushed long enough, you will eventually break through and overcome. Removing that element, making it so the guy who stopped working hard years ago suddenly has a chance to take you out even though you've been busting your ass everyday for a decade is a much less universally loved message.

So to recap the "power levels" are merely the end result of a long hard road. The "trophy" they earned for their struggles. It means something. Invalidating their struggles for some of us hurts our enjoyment of a show because we have gone through these struggles with this characters over the course of years. If everyone gets a "trophy" now for participation does the work and effort and sacrifice they put in really mean anything anymore? I mean of course it does, they are fictional characters but you can help be feel it cheapens the struggle.

[Kokonoe]

^ Excellent post, TheMikado.

With that said, I feel also that it's not so much about them being "power levels", but more or less that they represent a part of the story, just like Gohan being a kind-hearted soul. Imagine if out of nowhere he started becoming violent and beating up innocent people? That kind of drastic change in character to me is the exact same as someone going from a lower level of power to an incredibly high one without a proper build up with sense involved.

If you're watching Ruroni Kenshin, you wouldn't expect Kaoru with some off panel training being able to push Kenshin in any way. It's all about creating a cohesive world that makes sense.

[TheMikado]

^ Excellent post, TheMikado.

With that said, I feel also that it's not so much about them being "power levels", but more or less that they represent a part of the story, just like Gohan being a kind-hearted soul. Imagine if out of nowhere he started becoming violent and beating up innocent people? That kind of drastic change in character to me is the exact same as someone going from a lower level of power to an incredibly high one without a proper build up with sense involved.

If you're watching Ruroni Kenshin, you wouldn't expect Kaoru with some off panel training being able to push Kenshin in any way. It's all about creating a cohesive world that makes sense.

It does represent a lot about them. The first representation of Gohan's potential is the very first enemy of Z and the arc that started the power trend when he raged against Radditz.
He never wanted to be a fighter and was not a natural born one, but his instinct of justice and doing the right thing made people identify with him. His potentially only really showing itself when he's pushed to his edge. It started as SSJ2 and culminated with Mystic Gohan but the journey to that level took him through Piccolo training, saiyan battles, fighting against Frieza and his hencemen, FSSJ training, he fought Dabura, the king of Demons! Someone even the Supreme Kai feared. Belittling his struggle and saying that someone like Krillin, who hasnt trained in years, trained really hard for a few hours with basic exercise equipment, hurts a bit even in the context of the ring out. I honestly didn't mind that fight much at all. The problem is when he bows his head and apologizes to krillin and tells him how inexperienced he is. This same guy who fought Radditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell, and Buu!!! Its like they are treating Gohan like a young kid who doesn't know any better. Again, I understand Krillin is saying it within the context of a tournament, however Gohan literally just fought in a tournament with those rules. He shouldn't be this "green" after everything he's been through and that's what I mean by cheapen the experience and the character. Gohan isn't a seasoned warrior. Not that I ever considered him one, but he's no slouch or idiot either. It also asks where was all this strategy and experience Krillin had when fighting Nappa, Frieza, etc. We keep talking about the rules, so does than mean he could have saved us during the Cell games. Remember Cell was pretty green being just born and all.

[Robo4900]

My 2 cents: Power levels were a cool way early on in DBZ to show the immense power gap between Goku and the gang, and the Saiyan/Freeza arc baddies. But even in there, one of the major points that was pushed quite hard was that power levels are rather useless after a certain point, given how the Earth-based fighters can not only change their power levels, but also that despite Goku's power level being quite a decent bit less than Vegeta's, they still ended up as a fairly even match(Goku's power level is "Over 8,000!" Vegeta's is stated as about 18,000. Goku with a 2x Kaioken would bring him up to 16,000, meaning Vegeta has him beaten in raw power. And yet, it was still a fairly even fight, with the only real edge being gained when Vegeta went into ape form, or when Goku went x3 or more with his Kaioken, which he could only do in very short bursts), with the victory only going to Goku and the others in the end because both sides were too badly hurt to continue fighting.

Power levels kind of still work as a rough way of figuring out raw fighting power, but they haven't really worked properly since about the Boo arc(Or perhaps somewhere in the Cell arc), particularly after the introduction of fusion.

I think this new arc is the best demonstration of a case where power levels are irrelevant: The heavy hitters like Goku and Vegeta can basically win any 1-on-1 fight in a setting like this, but this tournament is about everyone staying on the stage. Raw power is helpful, but not very significant, as strategy is going to be 99% of the deciding factor of the fighting in the tournament.

[Cipher]

As a person who wishes to become a better writer myself, I can't help but be disappointed. Especially due to the fact that Toriyama is one of the people who inspired me to take up art and writing in the first place. I want to see him improve, I want to see him do better, but if he along with an entire staff of writers cant get somthing as simple as power scaling right, I can't help but get frustrated. Is consistency hard? Yes. But it's not impossible, and I've seen Toriyama and his crew pull it off before.

Out of curiosity, have you read Jaco or any of his other post-Dragon Ball manga? I'm not trying to tell you how to enjoy things, but I'd hate to let as slipshod a production as the anime version of Super inform anyone's opinion of contemporary Toriyama's abilities as an author.

I can't promise it'll do anything for your wanting to see consistent power scaling, but he's as sharp with scripting and storytelling as ever.

[ABED]

It's not that power levels as a concept is problematic, it's how they are being measured. The scouters seem to only be able to accurately measure the power the fighter is putting out (for lack of a better term) not neccessarily their maximum. The concept of power scaling is a sound idea.

And yet, it was still a fairly even fight, with the only real edge being gained when Vegeta went into ape form, or when Goku went x3 or more with his Kaioken, which he could only do in very short bursts), with the victory only going to Goku and the others in the end because both sides were too badly hurt to continue fighting.

But it wasn't an even fight. Vegeta is also holding back early on. Goku tries Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 only to be bested. It's only after using x3 that Goku stood any kind of chance, but it wrecks his body.

[VegettoEX]

Please do not use this thread to argue your contrary point, or to have an actual strength debate.

[ABED]

Please do not use this thread to argue your contrary point, or to have an actual strength debate.

Just pointing out that the PL wasn't irrelevant. The story made sense and the fight worked because it was logically built. The concept wasn't thrown out the window in order to justify the protagonist and antagonist fighting on an even playing field. I'm unsure as to your first point. Arguing "your contrary point"?

[DBZAOTA482]

It makes a character's power easy to gauge and determine gaps.

[VegettoEX]

It makes a character's power easy to gauge and determine gaps.

Yes, that's what it does, but can you elaborate on why and how that's important to you? That's the question being posed by the thread; there's an understanding already of what "power" actually is.

[PsionicWarrior]

TheMikado hits nail on the head again but please allow me to make a shorter post for the lazy,

Power scaling basically help to understand where X fighter stands vs another one, if for instance suddenly Roshi is able to beat Beerus because the script wants to it's just bad writing lol
While Z had its shortcomings regarding it we're nowhere near Super in these terms and some of us like stuff to make sense in the way that when someone supposedly extremely strong gets beaten by someone who is supposed to be a weakling just makes you cringe cheers lol

[King-K9]

As a person who wishes to become a better writer myself, I can't help but be disappointed. Especially due to the fact that Toriyama is one of the people who inspired me to take up art and writing in the first place. I want to see him improve, I want to see him do better, but if he along with an entire staff of writers cant get somthing as simple as power scaling right, I can't help but get frustrated. Is consistency hard? Yes. But it's not impossible, and I've seen Toriyama and his crew pull it off before.

Out of curiosity, have you read Jaco or any of his other post-Dragon Ball manga? I'm not trying to tell you how to enjoy things, but I'd hate to let as slipshod a production as the anime version of Super inform anyone's opinion of contemporary Toriyama's abilities as an author.

I can't promise it'll do anything for your wanting to see consistent power scaling, but he's as sharp with scripting and storytelling as ever.

No I haven't. In fact, I've only ever watched anime. The only manga I've ever read in my entire life is one of the chapters of Naruto part 1.

Also I'm aware that Toriyama is a good writer, and i'm also aware that the other members of the staff are mostly responsible for Super's production. I just happen to be a person who feels like they aren't doing a good job.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Guys... I'm sorry, but for the love of of all that is holy, stop making topics about power levels and strength tiers. We already have three/four that should more than suit anybody's needs at the moment.

If you want to discuss the character strengths, you have the power level thread, aka Option A:
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

If you want to discuss the potential changing of the power scale without discussing said numbers, you have Option B:
Did Toei and Toriyama Shorten the Power Scale to Allow More Competition?

If you want to discuss why you should or shouldn't care about the power scale, that can be easily working into Option C:
Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

This particular discussion can easily be placed in Option C.

[VegettoEX]

On one hand, you're absolutely right: the similarity to that other thread (one I even participated in myself) is glaring, and I can't believe I missed it.

On the other hand, I think this one is juuuuuuuust different enough to validate keeping it around for just a little bit more. I think even fans that have zero Super familiarity can chime in, and this can be a (dare I say) "safe space" for the strength debate/scaling fans to (politely!) sound off on their own as to why they enjoy that stuff.

As I've done already in this thread, though, I'm going to challenge you to actually contextualize and describe those feelings. A "because I find it interesting" or "because then you can tell who will win" just isn't enough (and wouldn't be enough anywhere else on the forum!).

So let's keep trying for a little bit more and see where it goes from here, while we reserve the right to lock it back up should it stray off again. Thanks!

[Doctor.]

I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.

Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.

If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.

An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

In agreement with Doctor's post above, my concerns about Super's power scaling have nothing to do with tedious charts and calculations. I think that kind of fixation on numbers and character lists leads people to ignore interesting and realistic aspects of combat: environment, characters' current condition, and even luck.

But ultimately, drama in a fighting based series comes from strong antagonists. And that means you are automatically making a power scale and using it to build the audience's expectations. If you break it at this point, because you want you characters or friendship to look cool, then it is simply unskillful writing.

Super wants to include previous characters in the current arc. I believe it should, and that it believably can. Ten fighters from multiple universes, not all of them will be god tier (it is supposed to be rare, after all). But they think 17 just won't be cool enough if he doesn't fight SSB Gokuu, and Trunk's just won't be interesting if he doesn't transform and fight Black (more cynically, they want to show off these transformations as often as possible for toy sells).

So they have to whip out things like "I trained". First off, how lame that we don't get to see this super awesome training. Second, if everyone could always have achieved god tier power if only they trained, what jerks they are for not doing it before! Third, why was everyone so scared of Beerus if a few months of push-ups and they're fine?

I have heard the argument that if a scene is exiting and makes you feel emotion, then at that point power levels don't matter. But that seems to me just as superficial as the stereotypical power level calculator. Do you get emotional only by screaming and cool animation?

EDIT: And I do believe it is worse in Super than before. Transformations like SSJ and SSJ2 were hinted at the entire arc before, and characters that are weaker than the villain don't win (Freeza beats everyone before SSJ) and character that are far weaker get stomped ( Boo wrecks everyone). Even contrasting the different versions of Gokuu vs. Beerus shows how Toei cares less about power scales than Toriyama. In the movie, Gokuu admits defeat in the fight and Beerus says he used 80% of his power (the exact number does not matter, but it shows that SSG meant something and how much further Gokuu needed to go to catch up with Beerus.) In the Super version, Gokuu only continuously and redundantly powers up throughout the fight, and at the end (and the rest of the series) Beerus is vaguely stronger than Gokuu, so that Gokuu can look good by training and getting more forms, and Beerus can look good by always being above him .