Pioneer Laserdisc question

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
eledoremassis02
I Live Here
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:40 pm

Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed May 10, 2017 5:44 pm

Does anyone happen to own the first 3 Z movies on laserdisc from Pioneer? I was wondering how they compare to the DVD (picture and audio) would it be a worthwhile upgrade? Is it bilinqual with subtitles for japanese?

If anyone has screen shots that would be fantastic!

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Danfun64 » Wed May 10, 2017 8:56 pm

For the English dub, the Laserdisc audio is definitely an upgrade, to the point that somebody needs to buy them (along with the Toei DB Laserdiscs, not the Pioneer Subbed releases) rip the audio and then sync to the Dragon Box masters. The main reason the video of the Laserdisc is an upgrade from the DVD is because of macroblocking issues.
Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

User avatar
eledoremassis02
I Live Here
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by eledoremassis02 » Tue May 16, 2017 3:09 pm

Danfun64 wrote:For the English dub, the Laserdisc audio is definitely an upgrade, to the point that somebody needs to buy them (along with the Toei DB Laserdiscs, not the Pioneer Subbed releases) rip the audio and then sync to the Dragon Box masters. The main reason the video of the Laserdisc is an upgrade from the DVD is because of macroblocking issues.
Perfect! I'll defiantly keep an eye out!

User avatar
eledoremassis02
I Live Here
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon May 22, 2017 9:55 pm

Got it today! The card that came with it was a bit underwelming but the picture quality is 100% better than DVD. Its honesly one of the best looking laserdiscs i've seen! I can stay 100% my DVD is retired
Image

Image

Image

TheQuazz
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:37 am
Contact:

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by TheQuazz » Tue May 23, 2017 4:22 am

Damn, I completely forgot this was released on LaserDisc. Congrats on picking this up! I'm not sure how this compares to the Ultimate Uncut releases in terms of video quality, but it'd definitely be at least as good. I wish I had the money to get my hands on something like this, the movies have had an unfair treatment by both Funimation and Toei in recent years.

AnimeMaakuo
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Tue May 23, 2017 3:12 pm

TheQuazz wrote:Damn, I completely forgot this was released on LaserDisc. Congrats on picking this up! I'm not sure how this compares to the Ultimate Uncut releases in terms of video quality, but it'd definitely be at least as good. I wish I had the money to get my hands on something like this, the movies have had an unfair treatment by both Funimation and Toei in recent years.
What's wrong with the Dragon Boxes? :wtf:
My YouTube

Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Danfun64 » Tue May 23, 2017 11:58 pm

I think he means to say that he prefers watching the pre BOG movies Open Matte. The thing is, they were animated in 4:3, but were meant to be seen in 16:9. The Double Features (Bardock and Trunks aside) actually show more picture than the Dragon Boxes (then again, so did the Level sets). To give them credit, Funi's HD transfer of DB Movies 1, 3 and 4 are probably the best open matte transfers of those films (I skipped DB Movie 2 because of the HD transfer's infamous frame-chopped-in-half issue). I can't recall what the best open matte transfers of the other films are though. Of course, I have a feeling that every Open Matte transfer of the pre BOG movies has inferior darks compared to the matted Dragon Boxes.

As for the quality of the Pioneer Laserdiscs compared to the Ultimate Uncut singles... IDK which is better. I have a feeling they're close to the same, considering that IIRC they come from the same Digibeta masters. Ultimate Uncut have an edge in resolution...but I don't know how bad the macroblocking is on them. On the one hand, the Pioneer DVDs only had one angle while the UUC have two. On the other hand, the encoding is probably better on the UUC singles than the Pioneer DVDs. All I know for certain is that the Pioneer Laserdiscs are far better than the Pioneer DVDs.
Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

TheQuazz
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:37 am
Contact:

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by TheQuazz » Wed May 24, 2017 5:57 am

AnimeMaakuo wrote:
TheQuazz wrote:Damn, I completely forgot this was released on LaserDisc. Congrats on picking this up! I'm not sure how this compares to the Ultimate Uncut releases in terms of video quality, but it'd definitely be at least as good. I wish I had the money to get my hands on something like this, the movies have had an unfair treatment by both Funimation and Toei in recent years.
What's wrong with the Dragon Boxes? :wtf:
The fact that the "definitive" release is cropped into widescreen cements the idea that these full-frame movies should be exclusively viewed in 16:9, despite there definitely being detail missing in the animation of the theatrical format. The only example I've seen that "proves" the tops and bottoms of the frames shouldn't be seen is the infamous Masenko by Gohan in Movie 3, but due to a lack of other instances I'm starting to believe it was just a plain-old animation error.

User avatar
Kojiro Sasaki
Banned
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:38 am
Location: Poland

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Wed May 24, 2017 6:46 am

Danfun64 wrote:The thing is, they were animated in 4:3, but were meant to be seen in 16:9.
Joseph Goebbels*** wrote:If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.
We need to make MythBusters episode about Dragon Ball movies. We definitely do.

But seriously - we need to kick out all those rumours, and do extensive research. As to my current knowledge, early movies were made with both AR in mind (as open matte definition explains), but later on, they stopped carying for top and bottom of the frame, and some mistakes started to appear. But facts are the facts - we do not have much of those mistakes, many later movies were released in 4:3, movies 12 and 13 were even screenend in cinemas in 4:3. I am still hoping that somebody will post some samples from 4:3 releases of other movies.

*** - probably misattributed, but this name makes those words stronger, so I repeated the unreliable sources :P
TheQuazz wrote:The fact that the "definitive" release is cropped into widescreen cements the idea that these full-frame movies should be exclusively viewed in 16:9, despite there definitely being detail missing in the animation of the theatrical format. The only example I've seen that "proves" the tops and bottoms of the frames shouldn't be seen is the infamous Masenko by Gohan in Movie 3, but due to a lack of other instances I'm starting to believe it was just a plain-old animation error.
Somebody posted Shenlong from DB Movie 4 with quite big error (unfinished cel + lack of backround at the bottom) but we still cannot determine, if they kept this mistake with 16:9 AR in mind, or if it was just pure accident.
It's very possible, that they were fully aware of the fact, that all future home video releases will be presented in 16:9, so they decided to not pay attention.
eledoremassis02 wrote:Got it today! The card that came with it was a bit underwelming but the picture quality is 100% better than DVD. Its honesly one of the best looking laserdiscs i've seen! I can stay 100% my DVD is retired
eledoremassis02??? :twisted: Are you planning on posting more screenshots from your LaserDiscs? Analog video track cannot be compared to today's digital formats in terms of resolution and clariness, but I am curious about the colors. I saw some screenshots from LDs before, but I don't have them anymore and I forgot how they looked. Also, maybe I would make use of them in my project.

User avatar
eledoremassis02
I Live Here
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:40 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed May 24, 2017 7:56 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote: eledoremassis02??? :twisted: Are you planning on posting more screenshots from your LaserDiscs? Analog video track cannot be compared to today's digital formats in terms of resolution and clariness, but I am curious about the colors. I saw some screenshots from LDs before, but I don't have them anymore and I forgot how they looked. Also, maybe I would make use of them in my project.
I'm trying to screen record the laserdisc but I'll defintly try to post more screenshots :D

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4383
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Robo4900 » Wed May 24, 2017 8:39 pm

Oh man, that screenshot looks nice.

Plus of course, the audio quality would be better too; lossless PCM, instead of the DVD's lossy 224kbps AC-3 track.

Very jealous. :lol:
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Danfun64 » Wed May 24, 2017 9:32 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

User avatar
Kojiro Sasaki
Banned
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:38 am
Location: Poland

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Thu May 25, 2017 9:49 am

Danfun64 wrote:Here is a comparison between the 16:9 Dragon Box and the 4:3 FunimationNow transfers of Curse of the Blood Rubies. Note that the images aren't perfect representations of their source material, but should get the point across at least:
By “other movies”, I meant newer ones than the eary ones. First Dragon Ball movie counts as early movie :D
You haven't posted any opinions about those screenshot. What do you think is good/wrong about them? Which AR looks better to you? What are your arguments to back up your opinions?
Danfun64 wrote:Master Roshi's Kamehameha
By the way... What is the source of “Master Roshi” name? It sounds stupid!
武 - martial arts
天 - heaven
老 - old man / senior
師 - teacher / master

The “Rōshi” part means master here! Master Master :lol:
The Polish translator named him “Boski Miszcz”. “Boski” means “heavenly”, “godlike”, “divine”, while “Miszcz” is a slang version of “Mistrz” (master, champion, expert), which sounds funny and adds “coolness”. It includes “martial arts”, when used in proper context. The one who translated the original manga to Polish was a brilliant genius. The translations were great, for exapmle: Gyūmaō
牛 - cattle, cow, bull
魔 - devil, demon
王 - king

“Byczy Lucyfer” is his Polish name. “Byczy” means “large”, “big”, but the word comes from “byk” which means “bull”. “Lucyfer” includes both, “devil” and “king”. Perfect translation and good description of the character :D

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Danfun64 » Thu May 25, 2017 1:08 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:By the way... What is the source of “Master Roshi” name?
The Harmony Gold dub, actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys0TOZneXag
Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

AnimeMaakuo
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Thu May 25, 2017 7:31 pm

TheQuazz wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
TheQuazz wrote:Damn, I completely forgot this was released on LaserDisc. Congrats on picking this up! I'm not sure how this compares to the Ultimate Uncut releases in terms of video quality, but it'd definitely be at least as good. I wish I had the money to get my hands on something like this, the movies have had an unfair treatment by both Funimation and Toei in recent years.
What's wrong with the Dragon Boxes? :wtf:
The fact that the "definitive" release is cropped into widescreen cements the idea that these full-frame movies should be exclusively viewed in 16:9, despite there definitely being detail missing in the animation of the theatrical format.
Another misconception! They were actually 4:3 until DBZ movie 3, and then switched to widescreen from DBZ movie 4. At the same time, Toei video started releasing Laser Discs of DBZ movies, which were in 16:9 because LDs were for videophiles (as they preferred something "original", "intended" and "theatrical").

After that, they started using the same masters for VHS. They also re-released the first six movies in widescreen in the late '90s as widescreen CRT TVs were becoming popular. I know for a fact that they showed them in 4:3 at theaters. DBZ movies were often shown at small non-cinema facilities like local community halls which have only standard size screens, so from what I've gathered, they were meant to be seen in 4:3 since the beginning.
Robo4900 wrote:Oh man, that screenshot looks nice.

Plus of course, the audio quality would be better too; lossless PCM, instead of the DVD's lossy 224kbps AC-3 track.

Very jealous. :lol:
Are you referring to the English or Japanese track? The PCM tracks from Japanese LDs and 448kbps AC3 tracks from Japanese Dragon Box have the same parameters, excluding volume, which is bigger on Dragon Box: The Movies.
Last edited by AnimeMaakuo on Thu May 25, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
My YouTube

Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

User avatar
Kojiro Sasaki
Banned
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:38 am
Location: Poland

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Thu May 25, 2017 7:37 pm

TheQuazz wrote:The fact that the "definitive" release is cropped into widescreen cements the idea that these full-frame movies should be exclusively viewed in 16:9, despite there definitely being detail missing in the animation of the theatrical format.
Image

Beautiful-looking part of the artwork entirely removed. Sorry, but I do not buy it.

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Danfun64 » Thu May 25, 2017 7:38 pm

AnimeMaakuo wrote:
TheQuazz wrote:
The fact that the "definitive" release is cropped into widescreen cements the idea that these full-frame movies should be exclusively viewed in 16:9, despite there definitely being detail missing in the animation of the theatrical format.
Another misconception! They were actually 4:3 until DBZ movie 3, and then switched to widescreen from DBZ movie 4.
[Citation Needed]
Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

User avatar
Kojiro Sasaki
Banned
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:38 am
Location: Poland

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Thu May 25, 2017 7:44 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:Another misconception! They were actually 4:3 until DBZ movie 3, and then switched to widescreen from DBZ movie 4.
[Citation Needed]
I think that kei17 is reliable source. My research gives the same results.

AnimeMaakuo
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Thu May 25, 2017 7:48 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
TheQuazz wrote:
The fact that the "definitive" release is cropped into widescreen cements the idea that these full-frame movies should be exclusively viewed in 16:9, despite there definitely being detail missing in the animation of the theatrical format.
Another misconception! They were actually 4:3 until DBZ movie 3, and then switched to widescreen from DBZ movie 4.
[Citation Needed]
It would appear that this information was collected years ago while exchanging private messages with Kei17 about "aspect ratios". But this data has been around for a while; I'm surprised you didn't know about this Danfun64.
Last edited by AnimeMaakuo on Thu May 25, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My YouTube

Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Pioneer Laserdisc question

Post by Danfun64 » Thu May 25, 2017 8:11 pm

I legitimately didn't know about that. It doesn't help that when I compared the Dragon Box and Funi transfers of Curse of the Blood Rubies recently, nothing "essential" seemed lost with a center crop, not to mention that while the OP is the full 4:3 version of Funi's transfer, the Dragon Box transfer shifted the OP up and down, and other Open Matte transfers of DB Movie 1 show irregular letter boxing.

On another note, I wonder if I'm genuinely wrong about the whole remastered Funi transfer of DB Movie 1 being the best 4:3 transfer of the film.
Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

Post Reply