Is the 'Majin Vegeta arc' one of the greatest in the series?

[DBZAOTA482]

Yes. The Majin Boo Saga would've sucked without it.

I don't know... The Boo Arc does suck, but I actually really like the Kid Boo fight.

The Kid Boo fight was good too but Vegeta's midlife crisis as a Majin is what I felt pushed the arc from kinda bad to actually worthwhile. Everything between Vegeta's sacrifice and Vegetto is nothing but pointless circle-jerking... almost Super level in bad storytelling.

Oh and let's not forget the Baba Spaceship mess...

[Big Green The Yoshi]

Oh and let's not forget the Baba Spaceship mess...

Yeah, that's why I said in this thread that Baba's Ship is the worst portion of the Manga... LOL.

[MajinMan]

The Majin Vegeta section of the Buu arc is great. It has a lot of well done character moments and one of the best death scenes in the series. This was when Vegeta teuly transitioned into a good guy.

[Rory]

Not even remotely.

I adored it at the time (being a kid and all), but upon re-reading I feel the early build-up is great (The re-introduction of the Budoukai, the lore around wizards and ancient kaios, even if 'an ancient evil' is a lame/worn out concept) but the pay-off was weak.

The battles felt very 'video gamey', not doing much for the characters or plot (other than show 'hasn't Gokuu gotten STRONG!'). The only fight I liked was Gohan vs Dabra, cause it managed to really convey that Gohan has lost his ability and power in the time gap, which was an interesting contrast with the two fights that came before. Would've been nice if this added up to anything, but like the entirety of the Boo stuff, very little amounts to anything.
Vegeta's reunion with the dark side is understandable, it totally fits with his character, but again if you're gonna go to those lengths to get him to fight Gokuu, why is their fight so shoddy and why does it not accomplish anything at all? These characters don't learn anything during their fight, they don't change besides Vegeta randomly (yes, randomly) casting off Bobidi's influence and being a goody again. Knocking out Gokuu also made no sense, and his excuse of 'this is my mess' is contrived for a character who I've been pretty much on-board with throughout this part of the arc.

His sacrifice is a nice scene, but only when stripped of context. The groundwork is a bit too weak when it's looked at as a whole, so frankly this, along with the whole Boo stuff, is really one of my least favourites of the series.

[ABED]

Vegeta's reunion with the dark side is understandable, it totally fits with his character, but again if you're gonna go to those lengths to get him to fight Gokuu, why is their fight so shoddy and why does it not accomplish anything at all? These characters don't learn anything during their fight, they don't change besides Vegeta randomly (yes, randomly) casting off Bobidi's influence and being a goody again. Knocking out Gokuu also made no sense, and his excuse of 'this is my mess' is contrived for a character who I've been pretty much on-board with throughout this part of the arc.

Could not disagree more. The fight is brutal and intense and Vegeta does learn something. He discovers that he has changed for good. He doesn't have quite the taste for the dark side as he once did. And how does knocking Goku out make no sense for his character?

And no, you are misusing "randomly".

[PsionicWarrior]

Absolutely yes. Great moment in Vegeta's character development and intense/awesome fight.

[Hyena_Yamcha]

yes , its without a doubt the best part in the entire majin buu saga

[Rory]

Could not disagree more. The fight is brutal and intense

It's a couple of pages. I know you're talking about the anime but that doesn't effect the context of the fight, cause it's just (well animated) padding to what's there, and what's there is weak.

and Vegeta does learn something. He discovers that he has changed for good. He doesn't have quite the taste for the dark side as he once did.

A concept I'm down with, however if that was the case his resolve should've wavered throughout the fight (that doesn't last two pages), we may have seen a Vegeta who wasn't going all out against Gokuu, the decision weighing on his conscious with Gokuu asking why he's not fighting to kill, (just as an example). However even in the manga, it just plays out as a standard late-Dragon Ball fight with two people punching each other till they decide to stop.

And how does knocking Goku out make no sense for his character?

Because if he's embraced the good once again, he's nothing to gain from knocking out Gokuu. Why wouldn't he want him to interfere, or at least be a back-up if the fate of his loved ones are in the balance? It's contrived writing (Toriyama wanted Vegeta out of the picture), and unlike early Dragon Ball writing, the contrived elements stand out.

And no, you are misusing "randomly".

If that's the case, please show me specific moments of this not being a random change back. Because it's two pages, and Gokuu questions him being evil once, with just a sentence no less.

[ABED]

The number of pages has nothing to do with it, besides, I watch the anime and it's an intense hard hitting fight. There's more meat to the fight in the anime. The manga takes what is a significant moment and doesn't flesh it out.

What you are doing is arm chair quarterbacking. There's nothing about Vegeta's character and revelation that suggests he has to waver in the fight. The fact that he just knocks Goku out shows that he has changed. Your scenario isn't the only way for the scene to play out.

Because if he's embraced the good once again, he's nothing to gain from knocking out Gokuu.

He does because he's still Vegeta. He's better but he's still not a good guy. He still would want the glory and he still doesn't like working with Goku. It's not contrived because he's in character. He doesn't think Buu is stronger than him. I don't think you understand Vegeta's character because he's a better man, but he's still not a good man and he has his pride and insecurities.

If that's the case, please show me specific moments of this not being a random change back. Because it's two pages, and Gokuu questions him being evil once, with just a sentence no less.

What are you looking for? How many sentences would suffice for you? His actions show that it's not random.

[dario03]

I really like it but at the same time I would have done almost everything different.

[Rory]

The number of pages has nothing to do with it

It does if it's this significant character moment in a series where battles primarily = character growth.

besides, I watch the anime and it's an intense hard hitting fight. There's more meat to the fight in the anime. The manga takes what is a significant moment and doesn't flesh it out.

Well... we agree then? I'd changet the "what is" to "what should be", but I think we're on the same page pretty much.

What you are doing is arm chair quarterbacking. There's nothing about Vegeta's character and revelation that suggests he has to waver in the fight. The fact that he just knocks Goku out shows that he has changed. Your scenario isn't the only way for the scene to play out.

I literally said in brackets "Just an example", as in, this is a means of conveying a character's inner struggle in the context of a battle. Like when Gohan couldn't put a nail in the Dabra fight, we found out that Gohan's powers have faded with time. We find out a bit about the character by how they're fighting. By saying 'just an example', I'm telling you that I'm aware this isn't the only way this could play out, so please can we refrain from the pseudo-logical fallacy finger-pointing?

He does because he's still Vegeta. He's better but he's still not a good guy. He still would want the glory and he still doesn't like working with Goku. It's not contrived because he's in character.

But Vegeta is constantly changing as a character. This isn't a bad thing, but who is he right now? If he didn't want to work with Gokuu, then why didn't he say that in his inner-monologue, instead claiming he's taking ownership of his responsibility?
He's not quite a 'good guy' yet, but Gokuu told him that his love for his family hasn't left, so you'd think it'd factor into his decision-making here.

He doesn't think Buu is stronger than him.

He literally says "If I come back alive" to Gokuu's unconscious body.

What are you looking for? How many sentences would suffice for you? His actions show that it's not random.

I think we're done here. If you're gonna keep going round in circles and say "Well it's Vegeta so it makes sense!", then this isn't going to be a constructive conversation.

[ABED]

It does if it's this significant character moment in a series where battles primarily = character growth.

It doesn't. It's not the minutes it's about the quality of the minutes. The anime gives it the time so I'm not sure what your issue is here.

But Vegeta is constantly changing as a character. This isn't a bad thing, but who is he right now? If he didn't want to work with Gokuu, then why didn't he say that in his inner-monologue, instead claiming he's taking ownership of his responsibility?

We see who he is at the beginning of the arc who he is. We see that he is comfortable living on Earth and he hasn't done anything in the 7 years since the Cell Games. Why do you have to hear that Vegeta doesn't want to work with Goku? That's ALWAYS been the case. He doesn't like Goku. Even when he comes back he only works with Goku reluctantly and it's been proven beyond any doubt that he has no other options. Saying that he's taking responsibility is more than enough. They don't need to hit you over the head with a brick. We know that he doesn't want to work with Goku by SHOWING that he didn't work with Goku.

He's not quite a 'good guy' yet, but Gokuu told him that his love for his family hasn't left, so you'd think it'd factor into his decision-making here.

How did it not?

He literally says "If I come back alive" to Gokuu's unconscious body.

There's a chance, but he doesn't know for certain. He's shocked by how strong Buu is.

I think we're done here. If you're gonna keep going round in circles and say "Well it's Vegeta so it makes sense!", then this isn't going to be a constructive conversation.

That's never what I wrote nor implied. I've given my reasons why I think it makes sense beyond "it's Vegeta".

I literally said in brackets "Just an example", as in, this is a means of conveying a character's inner struggle in the context of a battle. Like when Gohan couldn't put a nail in the Dabra fight, we found out that Gohan's powers have faded with time. We find out a bit about the character by how they're fighting.

But his inner struggle is shown. He stops at knocking Goku out. Him trying to take out Buu is also evidence of his change. If he hadn't, there's no reason for him to do either of those things. His reasons for fighting Buu weren't for the challenge, either. I think that also falls under the category of an example of how to convey his change, not your preference but I think it's perfectly valid.