Is the 'Majin Vegeta arc' one of the greatest in the series?

[nato25]

For some reason or another I've been thinking about the most memorable moments in the series and for me everything surrounding Majin Vegeta is just really well done.

- We're well into the Buu Saga where the series probably looks at it's absolute peak. Who could forget that shot of Vegeta's grin at the World Tournament Stage.
- Likewise the performance of the English cast were also at their peaks. Schemmel and Sabat deliver fantastic and memorable performances. (Sorry Japanese fans but for the most part my main experience with Z is dub only)
- All the events and payoff just work brilliantly. After roughly 7 years of being a reformed villain Vegeta, aided by feelings of frustration at Gohan's current weakness and the fact that Goku only has one day on earth, decides to allow himself to be possessed to gain enough power to regain his pride. He then uses that same pride to fend off his control from Babidi, proving how strong his resolve is. He then goes on to kill people in the audience, show no regard for Supreme Kai or that his actions will revive Buu, this is all he wants.
- We then get the great fight between Goku and Vegeta before he then chooses he has to sacrifice himself for the family he now realises he does care about after all and that this isn't the person he is anymore (just someone obsessed with being stronger so that he can dominate others).

I'd love to see everyone else's opinion on this mini arc of the series.

[TheMikado]

Yes it is. This arc made Vegeta my number one. The emphasis on personal pride and redemption is just an amazing story to me. The fact that it wasn't like a switch flipping where this guy who has been bad all his life gets a wife and son and suddenly becomes the idea good guy, rather it was a man whose ideals were at conflict with his situation. He desired to be evil it found himself slowly drifting into good. I absolutely loved this arc.

[sintzu]

Yes and Vegeta's story as a whole in that arc is what makes it my favorite. Everything about it from when we first see him training with Kid Trunks up until he puts his life on the line to hold Kid Buu off Goku is all around great. The Buu arc is pretty much a Vegeta centric arc and it's beyond me why anyone would want the story to end at Cell with someone getting so much development in the very next arc.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It could have been if it weren't totally random. Vegeta has clearly mellowed out and cares about his family, but forget that cuz we need a Goku/Vegeta rematch.

[Doctor.]

It could have been if it weren't totally random. Vegeta has clearly mellowed out and cares about his family, but forget that cuz we need a Goku/Vegeta rematch.

I don't see how it's random. Vegeta was a complete dick in the Cell arc and we didn't see enough of him in the Boo arc to suggest he's much different. In fact, he expressed over and over how he wished to have a rematch with Goku.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It could have been if it weren't totally random. Vegeta has clearly mellowed out and cares about his family, but forget that cuz we need a Goku/Vegeta rematch.

I don't see how it's random. Vegeta was a complete dick in the Cell arc and we didn't see enough of him in the Boo arc to suggest he's much different. In fact, he expressed over and over how he wished to have a rematch with Goku.

Vegeta was so distraught by his son's death at the Cell Games, he swore he'd never fight again (which was obviously ignored maybe 15 minutes worth of reading after it happened). He then lived with his family, and at the very least spent time with Trunks for presumably most of the 7 year gap. He was also totally chill, and even friendly at the tournament. Vegeta was 100% good guy until it was more convenient for him not to be.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta was so distraught by his son's death at the Cell Games, he swore he'd never fight again (which was obviously ignored maybe 15 minutes worth of reading after it happened).

Did we read the same manga? Vegeta was distraught that Goku surpassed him and died.

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I mean, he still expressed some degree of anger over Trunks dying or else he wouldn't have attacked Cell, but let's not act like Vegeta was completely pussified by this point.

He then lived with his family, and at the very least spent time with Trunks for presumably most of the 7 year gap. He was also totally chill, and even friendly at the tournament. Vegeta was 100% good guy until it was more convenient for him not to be.

And he never got over his Goku obsession, this was made clear at the end of the Cell arc and at the beginning of the Boo arc when he chose to enter the tournament specifically because Goku was coming back. Doesn't matter if he was a good guy, obsessions make people go crazy. He chose to turn to Babidi's side because of Goku, his spiel about wanting to be evil and going back to his roots or whatever was just bullshit justification, even Goku calls him out on that.

It feels perfectly in-line with Vegeta's character at this point of the story to throw everything away just for a chance of proving himself to Goku.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Did we read the same manga? Vegeta was distraught that Goku surpassed him and died.

I totally confused the two in my head. My foul.

And he never got over his Goku obsession, this was made clear at the end of the Cell arc and at the beginning of the Boo arc when he chose to enter the tournament specifically because Goku was coming back. Doesn't matter if he was a good guy, obsessions make people go crazy. He chose to turn to Babidi's side because of Goku, his spiel about wanting to be evil and going back to his roots or whatever was just bullshit justification, even Goku calls him out on that.

It feels perfectly in-line with Vegeta's character at this point of the story to throw everything away just for a chance of proving himself to Goku.

I'm sorry, no. "Obsessions make people go crazy" isn't good enough. By that justification, any rash action with any useful precedent can be justified by anyone at will. Vegeta never got over his rivalry, I'd never even suggest that much, but it was just fun competition, as indicated by Vegeta's tone regarding their sons' fights, but also the friendly tone in which he spoke. Vegeta didn't indicate otherwise until a certain disruptive Kaioshin essentially called off the tournament, and even then, he didn't make a big deal over it. But once Toriyama decided to get the ball rolling, all of a sudden, Vegeta gets upset over a fight that has nothing to do with him, acts like an absolute child and gets brainwashed, which is quickly revealed to have been Vegeta's plan for quite some time! There's more! Then, despite basically being in full control of himself, he goes and murders the audience of the tournament for no reason. And people think Super has out of character moments?! This is absolutely ridiculous!

Don't get me wrong, I do love it for being cool as hell, but I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the absurdity of the whole situation.

[Doctor.]

I'm sorry, no. "Obsessions make people go crazy" isn't good enough. By that justification, any rash action with any useful precedent can be justified by anyone at will. Vegeta never got over his rivalry, I'd never even suggest that much, but it was just fun competition, as indicated by Vegeta's tone regarding their sons' fights, but also the friendly tone in which he spoke. Vegeta didn't indicate otherwise until a certain disruptive Kaioshin essentially called off the tournament, and even then, he didn't make a big deal over it. But once Toriyama decided to get the ball rolling, all of a sudden, Vegeta gets upset over a fight that has nothing to do with him, acts like an absolute child and gets brainwashed, which is quickly revealed to have been Vegeta's plan for quite some time! There's more! Then, despite basically being in full control of himself, he goes and murders the audience of the tournament for no reason. And people think Super has out of character moments?! This is absolutely ridiculous!

Don't get me wrong, I do love it for being cool as hell, but I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the absurdity of the whole situation.

I mean, it's Vegeta we're talking about. The same guy who killed innocent people when fighting #18 and acted more like the villain than she did? It isn't too far-fetched that he'd kill some innocent people just to agitate Goku, especially when he knows Dragon Balls exist. It seems awfully coincidental that he missed Bulma & co despite aiming in their direction.

Vegeta always acts chill when he thinks he has the situation under control. Always 'friendly' and making cocky remarks. It's when shit hits the fan that he blows his lid. I won't say that everything being Vegeta's plan doesn't seem ludicrous without any proper build-up, but the "Vegeta gives in to evil to fight Goku again" plot point seems to me like Toriyama had it planned since the beginning of the tournament.

[Cipher]

Vegeta's arc tracks for me. He's friendly with Goku as their sons are battling because, as far as he knows, their own match is just a few hours away. Then it becomes evident that, thanks to the whole Boo situation, they're not going to have a chance to fight, and even if they did, Goku would beat him, and he'll never have a chance to prove himself for the rest of his life, and there's a power-up in front of him that could both allow him to sieze the opportunity to defeat Goku and remove any moral compunctions he'd have in forcing the battle at that point. It becomes a win-win-win scenario instead of having to live the rest of his life in shame.

It's a perfect storm of events to drive someone with Vegeta's temperament to that decision.

Re: Murdering people at the tournament: I think it's obvious that, while it doesn't exert total control over Vegeta, Bobbadi's magic genuinely does remove inhibitions. Everyone notes how much Spopovitch and Yamu have changed. Again, the spell both offers Vegeta what he sees as the power he needs to beat Goku, and the lack of restraint to force Goku to fight him in the first place.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I can acknowledge the great performances. Horikawa Ryou in that sacrifice scene was simply amazing. Nozawa Masako was solid too in the entire arc. Kikuchi's music was top class as usual. The animation and direction of the arc as a whole was way above than what we had gotten before.

But, Vegeta as a character was bleh at that point. He was a rival for the sake of being a rival. He did Vegeta things and post Freeza I got tired of seeing Vegeta antics. The best thing about Vegeta in the Majin Boo arc was him finally having the balls to admit that Gokuu is #1. That was a well done scene.

I love the Majin Boo arc. It is my favorite in the anime version. I love the Gokuu and Vegeta fight, but I cared little about Vegeta's personal arc. Not a huge fan.

[Ki Breaker]

I can acknowledge the great performances, Horikawa Ryou in that sacrifice scene was simply amazing. Nozawa Masako was solid too in the entire arc. Kikuchi's music was top class as usual. The animation and direction of the arc as a whole was way above than what we had gotten before.

But, Vegeta as a character was bleh at that point. He was a rival for the sake of being a rival. He did Vegeta things and post Freeza I got tired of seeing Vegeta antics. The best thing about Vegeta in the Majin Boo arc was him finally having the balls to admit that Gokuu is #1. That was a well done scene.

I love the Majin Boo arc. It is my favorite in the anime version. I love the Gokuu and Vegeta fight, but I cared little about Vegeta's personal arc. Not a huge fan.

I have to ask, why do you watch Dragonball?
I have never seen you care about the story, characters or anything at all but only talk about either animation, voice acting or music..

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I can acknowledge the great performances, Horikawa Ryou in that sacrifice scene was simply amazing. Nozawa Masako was solid too in the entire arc. Kikuchi's music was top class as usual. The animation and direction of the arc as a whole was way above than what we had gotten before.

But, Vegeta as a character was bleh at that point. He was a rival for the sake of being a rival. He did Vegeta things and post Freeza I got tired of seeing Vegeta antics. The best thing about Vegeta in the Majin Boo arc was him finally having the balls to admit that Gokuu is #1. That was a well done scene.

I love the Majin Boo arc. It is my favorite in the anime version. I love the Gokuu and Vegeta fight, but I cared little about Vegeta's personal arc. Not a huge fan.

I have to ask, why do you watch Dragonball?
I have never seen you care about the story, characters or anything at all but only talk about either animation, voice acting or music..

I'm also curious, because if you're solely interested in the mechanics, there are far more interesting shows with better and/or more interesting productions. Not to say that I don't enjoy your contributions, but you seem bizarrely uninterested in Dragon Ball itself for a Dragon Ball fan.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I have to ask, why do you watch Dragonball?
I have never seen you care about the story, characters or anything at all but only talk about either animation, voice acting or music..

Different interests. I'm more interested towards all those aspects you mentioned than say the story. See my sig, it explains why I feel the way I feel.

That said, I do care about the characters and the story. I've talked about both a lot here as well as outside. Also, Dragon Ball has a very basic story and characters are pretty simple and so there's not much to go and do a full deep analysis about it.

[precita]

Vegeta's entire role in the Buu saga was great. He spends the Saiyan/Freeza saga being a villain, the Cell saga being an arrogant jackass, to the Buu saga being a hero on Earth, sacrificing his life to stop Buu and cutting his battle with Goku short. Then later on working with Goku side by side for the first time in canon, and getting the people of Earth to contribute energy for Goku's spirit bomb,etc.

[nato25]

Vegeta's arc tracks for me. He's friendly with Goku as their sons are battling because, as far as he knows, their own match is just a few hours away. Then it becomes evident that, thanks to the whole Boo situation, they're not going to have a chance to fight, and even if they did, Goku would beat him, and he'll never have a chance to prove himself for the rest of his life, and there's a power-up in front of him that could both allow him to sieze the opportunity to defeat Goku and remove any moral compunctions he'd have in forcing the battle at that point. It becomes a win-win-win scenario instead of having to live the rest of his life in shame.

It's a perfect storm of events to drive someone with Vegeta's temperament to that decision.

Re: Murdering people at the tournament: I think it's obvious that, while it doesn't exert total control over Vegeta, Bobbadi's magic genuinely does remove inhibitions. Everyone notes how much Spopovitch and Yamu have changed. Again, the spell both offers Vegeta what he sees as the power he needs to beat Goku, and the lack of restraint to force Goku to fight him in the first place.

Nicely said man I agree with everything you said.

Also I don't think Vegeta planned to be overcome by Babidi, I just think when Babidi chose to do it Vegeta obliged.

[MozillaVulpix]

I do find it funny how the manga glosses over most of the Goku/Majin Vegeta fight, like it's the unimportant side-story in this arc. If they get any sort of resolution by having that fight, it doesn't really tell us. Heck, it seems to conflict Vegeta more than anything when Goku asks the right questions at the right time.

But in terms of acknowledging long-standing character relations, turning them into important plot point, and actually bringing some kind of resolution to a character who had been slowly developing in this story for years? Yeah, I'd say it succeeds there!

[ABED]

Even people trying to get sober suffer relapses. Change isn't a straight line. Characters and people often do fall back into old habits. My reading of it is that Vegeta gives in to Babidi to get the power he wants and to take away his inhibitions so he can force a fight with Goku only to realize that the pleasure he used to get from his old behavior was no longer there. He has to take this step in order to fully move forward.

Different interests. I'm more interested towards all those aspects you mentioned than say the story. See my sig, it explains why I feel the way I feel.

That said, I do care about the characters and the story. I've talked about both a lot here as well as outside. Also, Dragon Ball has a very basic story and characters are pretty simple and so there's not much to go and do a full deep analysis about it.

Interesting and I have read your sig. Well thought out, but ultimately I don't agree. Nice visuals are great, but don't make up for a subpar story and I'm not talking about how complex it is. A good visual with even an okay story isn't as powerful to me as a great story, but perhaps the visuals are mediocre. The visuals are a means to an end. It's visual STORYTELLING, not VISUAL storytelling. All the other things you mentioned such as direction and music should be aimed at one target - to tell a good story the audience can invest in.

DB is a simple story, but good storytelling isn't about complexity. I understand your point about Vegeta, but I think there's more meat on the bone they you assume.

[Kokonoe]

I won't say it isn't cool cause it definitely made for entertainment, and the fights that occurred because of it were awesome.

With that said, I agree with Jinzoningen MULE in that it felt rather random. To me it felt unnecessary as the character progression we received throughout the Frieza and Cell arcs pretty much already settled this. In fact, it felt as if they were recycling his redemption once more, and that's something the Buu arc tended to do in general was recycle things already done before from previous arcs such as Gohan having even more "hidden" power to unlock.

[sintzu]

I do find it funny how the manga glosses over most of the Goku/Majin Vegeta fight, like it's the unimportant side-story in this arc.

The manga did that with most of the arc's fights.