Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

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Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by King-K9 » Mon May 22, 2017 3:23 pm

Why is it that I'm completely fine with the Z fighters lack of meaningful screetime in GT, but i get so frustrated with it in Super? Isn't it kind of hypocritical? Well... not really.

One of the most common criticisms about Dragon ball GT is that it's pretty much the Goku show. And I can understand this complaint. But there are a few reasons why it dosent bother at all.

1. Goku is the main character
Dragon ball is and always has been the story of Son Goku. If a character isn't relevant to Goku, they aren't relevant at all. Now that may sound like a bad thing, but hear me out: Goku has met many friends over his lifetime. Some are still prevalent to this day, and others have faded into obscurity. But do you know who else goes through this? Us! We the viewers go through friends all the time. We may make friends with others, but they don't stay with us all our lives. Some of our closest friends remain in contact with you all of your life, but others you just kinda don't interact with as much after a while. This is the case with Dragon ball's story. We meet new characters, and we have old characters.

For example, in the Android saga of Z, does anyone notice how it's mostly just the Saiyans doing stuff, and not so much the humans? This is because Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, and Goku arc the most important characters in that arc. That's why they get the most screetime. Sure, Tien got that Tri-Beam moment against Cell, but other than that it's just Saiyans, Saiyans, and more Saiyans. This may seem like bad writing, but when you actually think about, it's Genius. The reason why there were so many Saiyans during that arc is because all of the Saiyans had some relevance to Goku's story at that time. Vegeta is Goku's arch rival who's main goal is to surpass him. Trunks is someone who looks up to Goku and wants him to help protect the future. Gohan is like Goku's pupil in this arc. While I like Tien, Yamcha and Krillin, I'm fine with them being sidelined if it means we get to flesh out the new characters.

And that's the thing about GT, there aren't that many new characters introduced in that show outside of Villains. There aren't that many new supporting characters to flesh out. Outside of Pan, Bra and Uub, GT didn't really have much to work off of. That's why it mainly focuses on Goku, because no one else has anything new to bring to the table. Vegeta's character arc was done, and Gohan's arc was done. The only character who i feel had an arc to finish was Piccolo. And I feel like GT did a wonderful job with him despite not having much screetime. While I admit to being disappointed with how little they did with Uub and Pan, there isn't much you can do with either because they don't bring anything new to the table. While there are some things that I wanted from GT that we didnt get, I feel like we still got what we needed. Which brings me to my next point.

2. Don't bring characters into a story where there is no place for them
I hear fans always say "Why couldn't so and so be in this arc"? And to that i say this; Tell me viewers, would Z have been any better if Toriyama didn't forget about Launch? Before you all scream yes or no, I want you to actually think about how that would change the series.... not much right? This is because there was no place for her in that show. Would battle of gods have been any better of a movie if Launch had a line or two? Not really. Of launch were in Z, she would have most likely been in the background most of the time, or would be in the background most of the time with Tien's baby like Videl turned out in Super. This reinforces my point that characters should be in stories just for the sake of being there. Want an example of this?

When the Resurrection F movie was first released, one of the biggest criticisms it received was the absence of Goten and Trunks. And for a while, I also agreed with this criticism. But do you want to know what changed that? Gotenks in the ROF arc. When he showed up, I was exited to see what he was gonna do. But what I walked out with was disappointment. After watching that I thought to myself "Was there even really a place for Gotenks in the movie"? If a story has enough characters, then don't add anymore unless you have somthing planned for them to do. Another example, is the Universe 6 tournament. When the teaser picture was released for this arc, I was ecstatic. Finally, characters other than Goku and Vegeta get to do somthing. I was so excited to see Piccolo Buu and Monaka kick some ass... that was until we found out that Buu fell asleep. From that point my confidence in the arc was put to a halt. Then Piccolo just decided to drop out for no reason. It was at that point where my expectations dropped dramatically. My only hope left was Monaka, and guess how that turned out? He was a weakling the whole time, and the entire arc was just a Goku and Vegeta cricle-jerk. And I wouldn't have a problem with this if the characters on the other team had been fleshed out a bit. But nope, Botamo is pretty much a joke character, Magetta's only personality trait is that he's a crybaby, Frost is just a Blue version of Frieza, and Hit is blander than soy. With the exception of Cabba, none of them are remotely interesting to me.

3. Too many characters can lead to in inconsistencies within the story
Okay, this one may be the most controversial part of this post, but i have to say it. The fact that Dragon Ball Super is bringing characters back into relevance now of all times to do so is one of the biggest mistakes the writers have made. Why is that? Two words:

Power... Levels...
* shudders internally * Now power level inconsistencies is nothing new to Dragon ball, but the more characters you have, the more likely it is to happen. Cases in point: The Future Trunks arc, and the Universe Survival arc. Lets start with the Trunks arc. Now i love Future Trunks as a character, in fact he used to be my number 1 favorite character in the series. And when I found out he was returning, i was hyped for Goku and Vegeta to finally share the spotlight with somebody. And all i have to say is; be careful what you wish for.

What was the issue? I don't know, could it be that Super turned him into a walking Deus Ex Machina? One episode, he is weaker than base form Goku Black, the next he can go toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku, the next he can Survive a Kamehameha from SSJR Goku Black and then obtains a new form out of nowhere. Dosent that seem a bit fishy? And it gets worse, he manages to learn th mafuba from a cell phone video, when it took Goku a whole night with no sleep. Not to mention that infamous asspull he did with the Spirit Bomb. And it's not just Trunks, Goku is a victim of this to. Remember when Vegeta and Trunks with a father-son Galick Gun couldn't stop Zamasu's holy wrath attack? Yeah, Goku can stop that by himself despite getting his ass whooped by Zamasu literally one episode ago. And it gets worse from there, he manages to destroy half of Zamasu's body by himself, but Vegito can't do the same? With his Ultimate move no less? What, is Vegeta just so weak that he holds Goku back when they're fused?

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Krillin hurting SSJB Goku? 17 doing the same? Gohan being able to do so as well despite only training with Piccolo? (Who should still be weaker than Buu I might add?) People are so quick to tear apart GT for Trunks getting hurt by a car crash (which is a lie), but they're okay with Goku getting hurt by bullets? You can complain about GT for not having a lot of relevant characters, but Id rather the characters be irrelevant over them getting to God level at the snap of a finger because the writers said so. Why? Because at least the former still shows respect for what was previously established in Dragon Ball and Z.

Conclusion
I understand wanting to see your favorite characters do things, it's what we all want. But it's not bad writing that these characters aren't being used when they don't need to be. I love these characters just as much as you do, but it's not a flaw of the writers that they aren't utilized 24/7. I want to see more of the Z fighters being relevant, but you need to remember that more characters =/= a better story. Sure, having a lot of characters can help a story, but only when they are used PROPERLY. I don't like have characters be irrelevant, but when ever Super tries to fix that it fails at it. When Super tries to make the characters matter, they either: Toss them to the sidelines, or make them overpowered for no reason.

At the end of the day, I respect GT for knowing when to relax when it comes to characters, and It actually taught me an important lesson when it comes to writing: Use your characters wisely.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by elijah310 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:40 pm

I disagree. First off, Oob was one character that were underused tremendously. They had all the right reasons to make him useful in the show, but didn't. With the way Z ended, it would seem that Oob would be way more relevant. Piccolo was another character who was underused, only being in the series to be killed. Also, Vegeta, one of the main characters of the franchise, didn't have that much significance at all aside from getting his body invaded by Bebi, and going SSJ4. It would have been awesome to see Vegeta fight one of the other Evil Dragons (a tag team fight with Goku and Vegeta against Eis and Nova would be cool), or have him go with Goku, Trunks, and Pan into space in the beginning of the series. So yeah, imo, GT had great opportunities to utilize its cast more, but didn't.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:58 pm

Gohan was always a co-protagonist, so when he was shoved into the background, it felt like a diservice. He could of at least became a mento figure like Piccolo, it just felt jarring that all his development and he didn't have an active role. He doesn't need to fight, but he needs to at least feel like he is apart of the main cast.

Also Uub was built up as a character that would eventually be taken up the mantle as Earth's defender, but that goes no where. He could of at least fought some shadow dragons himself to give him some victories.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:06 pm

I had so little interest in Uub that I'm glad they didn't use him. Despite what some are saying, there wasn't a lot of build up to Uub being Earth's defender. I just can't invest in him especially when there are the other characters we already know and care about. Even Pan is someone I care about more than Uub just by virtue of being Goku's granddaughter.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:07 am

Using the argument of "Goku is the main character" as one of the justifications for GT nothing of major note with the rest of the cast is a nonsense excuse. It is possible to have Goku as the main character and have the supporting cast that is relevant to the story as well without major discrepancies to the much heralded battle powers". This isn't a binary decision. It's doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be both. It just takes good writing. It's really not as difficult as a task as the fanbase make it out to be.

Plus, you have bit misunderstanding of the context of the battle powers and some of the plot points in Super.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by DrakenballP » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:23 am

I adored GT and it's my personal favorite series. The Baby Saga was amazing.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by TheMikado » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:39 am

elijah310 wrote:I disagree. First off, Oob was one character that were underused tremendously. They had all the right reasons to make him useful in the show, but didn't. With the way Z ended, it would seem that Oob would be way more relevant. Piccolo was another character who was underused, only being in the series to be killed. Also, Vegeta, one of the main characters of the franchise, didn't have that much significance at all aside from getting his body invaded by Bebi, and going SSJ4. It would have been awesome to see Vegeta fight one of the other Evil Dragons (a tag team fight with Goku and Vegeta against Eis and Nova would be cool), or have him go with Goku, Trunks, and Pan into space in the beginning of the series. So yeah, imo, GT had great opportunities to utilize its cast more, but didn't.
Vegeta is absolutely my favorite character, however I LOVED LOVED LOVED his presentation in GT. Vegeta had moved past hyper focusing on Goku and had retained a certain amount of respect. He even states himself that he has no desire to go chasing after Goku on his crazy adventures. Vegeta stays home, looks after Earth and his family. As far as I'm concerned Vegeta IS the main character back on Earth while Goku is out running around. Having Vegeta be his own character and not constantly latched to Goku is why I love GT so much. In Z and Super, if Vegeta shows up you're constantly asking the question "Where's Goku?" "When's Goku going to get here?" In GT, you knew Goku wasn't coming anytime soon so you'd be asking yourself what's Vegeta going to do in the meantime?

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:10 am

I always wanted other characters to get to shine, but I always felt like it was too late for characters like Kuririn and Yamucha. All of Z kind of made them inconsequential. Thus, when there's new material, I like it when there are new characters and they get to shine. It's nice to include Yamucha, Kuririn, Roshi, etc., but certainly not to put them anywhere in a fight. They can be important side characters and don't have to have some unbelievable power-up.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:42 pm

ABED wrote:Despite what some are saying, there wasn't a lot of build up to Uub being Earth's defender.
The amount of build-up doesn't really matter if he is the ending. He's the reincarnation of Majin Boo, a person whose rolls are to one day become the Earth's defender, and to create a productive outlet for Goku to invest his knowledge and power into. Ultimately, you can't continue Dragon Ball past EoZ without keeping Oob relevant in some significant capacity while remaining faithful to the ending's premise. It was a huge failing of GT, and if Super goes past EoZ, I'll hold it to the exact same standard.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:20 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
ABED wrote:Despite what some are saying, there wasn't a lot of build up to Uub being Earth's defender.
The amount of build-up doesn't really matter if he is the ending. He's the reincarnation of Majin Boo, a person whose rolls are to one day become the Earth's defender, and to create a productive outlet for Goku to invest his knowledge and power into. Ultimately, you can't continue Dragon Ball past EoZ without keeping Oob relevant in some significant capacity while remaining faithful to the ending's premise. It was a huge failing of GT, and if Super goes past EoZ, I'll hold it to the exact same standard.
Goku is the ending. It's not so much focused on Uub as what purpose he serves for Goku, which is a sparring partner. I don't think Uub is important at all anymore than it was to continue with Gohan as the hero after the Cell arc. I don't think it was a huge failing because I don't give one ounce of a damn for Uub. The premise of the ending isn't about Uub, it's about Goku looking forward to the future and having a productive outlet.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by TheZFighter » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:11 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
ABED wrote:Despite what some are saying, there wasn't a lot of build up to Uub being Earth's defender.
The amount of build-up doesn't really matter if he is the ending. He's the reincarnation of Majin Boo, a person whose rolls are to one day become the Earth's defender, and to create a productive outlet for Goku to invest his knowledge and power into. Ultimately, you can't continue Dragon Ball past EoZ without keeping Oob relevant in some significant capacity while remaining faithful to the ending's premise. It was a huge failing of GT, and if Super goes past EoZ, I'll hold it to the exact same standard.
I've always agreed with this.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:41 pm

People make a bigger idea out of Uub being Earth's defender, but that's a position that Goku took by happenstance. He didn't actively seek it out and he often puts the world in danger. His biggest reason for wanting Uub around is to spar with him.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:07 pm

King-K9 wrote:3. Too many characters can lead to in inconsistencies within the story
Okay, this one may be the most controversial part of this post, but i have to say it. The fact that Dragon Ball Super is bringing characters back into relevance now of all times to do so is one of the biggest mistakes the writers have made. Why is that? Two words:

Power... Levels...
But Goku's power level is inconsistent. Goku ranges from having trouble fighting weak characters because he can't turn Super Saiyan to absolutely man-handling Cell and Freeza in base because the story calls for it. I don't see how decreasing the number of characters fixes this underlying problem. Either you ignore the power levels and enjoy the fights for what they are, or you get obsessed with numbers and the story falls apart. It's the same for both GT and Super.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:35 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
King-K9 wrote:3. Too many characters can lead to in inconsistencies within the story
Okay, this one may be the most controversial part of this post, but i have to say it. The fact that Dragon Ball Super is bringing characters back into relevance now of all times to do so is one of the biggest mistakes the writers have made. Why is that? Two words:

Power... Levels...
But Goku's power level is inconsistent. Goku ranges from having trouble fighting weak characters because he can't turn Super Saiyan to absolutely man-handling Cell and Freeza in base because the story calls for it. I don't see how decreasing the number of characters fixes this underlying problem. Either you ignore the power levels and enjoy the fights for what they are, or you get obsessed with numbers and the story falls apart. It's the same for both GT and Super.
The issue isn't concrete numbers, but the logic of it. I can't enjoy a story as much if it ignores its own internal logic.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:35 pm

I'm fine with Goku being the only relevant one because the context is that everyone's more or less given up on this fighting shit. Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks,.... Basically everyone besides Goku, Pan and Oob are retired, they either don't train or if they do, it's more like exercise to stay fit and not to massively power up anymore.

Hell, one point of the show is that Goku gets so good that Oob, the guy who's supposed to definitively entertain him doesn't get the job done properly.

This certainly isn't an ideal solution for focusing on Goku but in the context in which GT happens and expands on itself, it makes sense: Goku never stopped growing himself whereas everyone else basically gave up for lives of relative peace.

Now, you might say "But eye-van! If Gohan retiring is fine in GT, then why does Super's version of him bother the shit out of you?!". Well, I'm glad you asked that question: because he's a mother fucking yo yo in terms of motivation. He constantly flip flops between wanting to get more power and protect his family to not doing jack or shit until the very, very recent arc and when he IS supposedly training, he's not powering himself up to any actual, relevant strength level that would actually let him protect his family!
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:48 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks,.... Basically everyone besides Goku, Pan and Oob are retired, they either don't train or if they do, it's more like exercise to stay fit and not to massively power up anymore.
Vegeta retiring seems out of character, though (especially if you're following the Kanzenban). What does Vegeta do all day if he's not training? Would taking Bra to the mall really be enough for him?

I could see Vegeta hating Goku less from the events of Buu saga, but outright giving up his competition with Goku is a bit of a stretch while both warriors are still fit. At the very minimum, Vegeta should be pushing Trunks to be his successor as a warrior.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:50 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks,.... Basically everyone besides Goku, Pan and Oob are retired, they either don't train or if they do, it's more like exercise to stay fit and not to massively power up anymore.
Vegeta retiring seems out of character, though (especially if you're following the Kanzenban). What does Vegeta do all day if he's not training? Would taking Bra to the mall really be enough for him?

I could see Vegeta hating Goku less from the events of Buu saga, but outright giving up his competition with Goku is a bit of a stretch while both warriors are still healthy. At the very minimum, Vegeta should be pushing Trunks to be his successor as a warrior.
The Kanzenban didn't exist when GT was made, in fact, that was the first instance of Vegeta's desire to beat Goku resurfacing then proceeding to never go the fuck away again.

If the Kanzenban was what GT worked with, I'd agree with it being a stretch that he'd let himself fall so far behind but the context GT worked with is that Vegeta accepted he can't overcome Goku and that's okay, he's got other things to make him happy besides that.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:00 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:[The Kanzenban didn't exist when GT was made, in fact, that was the first instance of Vegeta's desire to beat Goku resurfacing then proceeding to never go the fuck away again.
True, though readers of the Kanzenban are still going to be puzzled going into GT. Toriyama and Toei clearly envisioned a different role for Vegeta.
ekrolo2 wrote:...the context GT worked with is that Vegeta accepted he can't overcome Goku and that's okay, he's got other things to make him happy besides that.
I don't recall Vegeta accepting that the other things would completely replace his need to be a strong warrior, even in the original manga. That was a decision by Toei so they could focus on younger characters instead. Even so, I would think Vegeta would've been training Trunks if Trunks is supposed to be part of this new generation of warriors. In this sense, Super has handled Vegeta and Trunks' relationship much more within bounds of Toriyama's original work.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by TheMikado » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:02 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
LuckyCat wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks,.... Basically everyone besides Goku, Pan and Oob are retired, they either don't train or if they do, it's more like exercise to stay fit and not to massively power up anymore.
Vegeta retiring seems out of character, though (especially if you're following the Kanzenban). What does Vegeta do all day if he's not training? Would taking Bra to the mall really be enough for him?

I could see Vegeta hating Goku less from the events of Buu saga, but outright giving up his competition with Goku is a bit of a stretch while both warriors are still healthy. At the very minimum, Vegeta should be pushing Trunks to be his successor as a warrior.
The Kanzenban didn't exist when GT was made, in fact, that was the first instance of Vegeta's desire to beat Goku resurfacing then proceeding to never go the fuck away again.

If the Kanzenban was what GT worked with, I'd agree with it being a stretch that he'd let himself fall so far behind but the context GT worked with is that Vegeta accepted he can't overcome Goku and that's okay, he's got other things to make him happy besides that.
Pretty much, but given the opportunity to come back he jumped at it. Even in the Super 17 arc he gives a monologue comparing himself to Goku, and when Bulma told him she could make him go SSJ4 he jump at it. Vegeta never gave up on it, he still trained, but he has a life outside of Goku which is what I love.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:06 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:[The Kanzenban didn't exist when GT was made, in fact, that was the first instance of Vegeta's desire to beat Goku resurfacing then proceeding to never go the fuck away again.
True, though readers of the Kanzenban are still going to be puzzled going into GT. Toriyama and Toei clearly envisioned a different role for Vegeta.
Which isn't GTs problem since Toriyama farted one day and decided to change the entire context of his ending because fuck development of characters.
ekrolo2 wrote:...the context GT worked with is that Vegeta accepted he can't overcome Goku and that's okay, he's got other things to make him happy besides that.
I don't recall Vegeta accepting that the other things would completely replace his need to be a strong warrior, even in the original manga. That was a decision by Toei so they could focus on younger characters instead. Even so, I would think Vegeta would've been training Trunks if Trunks is supposed to be part of this new generation of warriors. In this sense, Super has handled Vegeta and Trunks' relationship much more within bounds of Toriyama's original work.[/quote]
Vegeta admitted to Goku that he found other things to care about besides his obsession when they fight in the Boo arc, this acceptance following by another by his second stringer role to Goku can reasonably lead to him becoming a far more relaxed warrior. I don't think Vegeta ever stops training but the days of him seemingly spending days and days on end in the gravity room like at the start of the Boo arc are gone. Much like everyone else in the show, Vegeta's chilled out and retired.

Hell, even Goku who's the last of the older guard still active is far more melancholy throughout GT, implying that the winding down effect is getting to everyone.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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