Super: Yay or Nay?

[sintzu]

I remember something to that effect being mistranslated from an Italian conference of some type. It's never actually been confirmed, unless I'm mistaken.

It was, the interview was even on the front page (I think).

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I remember something to that effect being mistranslated from an Italian conference of some type. It's never actually been confirmed, unless I'm mistaken.

It was, the interview was even on the front page (I think).

If you could source that, it'd be great. If not, I've never seen a reliable translation that indicates there are any plans to end at EoZ, so I'm not going to assume it's the case, though I certainly acknowledge it as a possibility.

[sintzu]

If you could source that, it'd be great. If not, I've never seen a reliable translation that indicates there are any plans to end at EoZ, so I'm not going to assume it's the case, though I certainly acknowledge it as a possibility.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/05/07/wi ... i-comicon/

https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

It's not here so unless it was somewhere else, it may have been ANOTHER rumor.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If you could source that, it'd be great. If not, I've never seen a reliable translation that indicates there are any plans to end at EoZ, so I'm not going to assume it's the case, though I certainly acknowledge it as a possibility.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/05/07/wi ... i-comicon/

https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

It's not here so unless it was somewhere else, it may have been ANOTHER rumor.

I don't think it was an intentional rumor, more like a mistranslation from somewhere that ended up spreading too far. Language barriers aren't easy to overcome, after all.

[Basaku]

I *think* the direct Toyatoro quote is here but we would need Japanese translation preferably (even more so than Italian answer since Toyatoro's translator may have gotten some things mixed up herself): https://youtu.be/auZUmwcwJmM?t=2m46s

[Anime Kitten]

(Spoiler tagging for spoilers)

[spoiler]No one knew about the Super Dragonballs? Ok That doesn't explain my other three questions: How did the Namekians get a shard of it? How did Kami create his own set of dragonballs with no shard? Why is there a thing called the Dragon Clan if the Namekians didn't make the Dragonballs?

It's only a year wait. And Supreme Kai could say "Eff it" like Zamasu and threaten an answer from him, or appeal to the good nature of surviving because he told him where Babidi was.

What's the point of having an army that wipes planets and sells them, if there are only 28 species to inhabit a universe and you've enslaved like 14 of those species?
Now, if Freeza was an intergalactic King, well as lame as it is to run a universe with only 28 species it would be sort of okay. But Dragonball didn't introduce Freeza as such. No, Freeza is a businessman. He wipes out a previous planets inhabitants and sells the planet to other species. So how is theere going to be supply and demand of buying and selling planets, when there are only maybe 14 species to buy or sell planets too! There's more than 14 planets in the universe it would make more sense for Freeza to go into Colonization and sell those other aliens rockets to colonize the other planets in the universe!

If he was a prodigy, he would have killed Cell after he went perfect. And Mafuba not worth mentioning? Then let's talk about the Spirit Bomb Sword, he never even seen the actual Genki Dama, but somehow he's going to put the properties to his sword. Let's ignore the fact Goku used the full population of Earth's energy against Buu and still almost lost if he wasn't re-energized, but Mr. Prodigy used like maybe 20 people to energize an attack to kill an opponent that would have drunk Kid Buu through a bendy straw.

If he was a prodigy, he would have stuck 17 and 18 with the Spirit Bomb Sword a long time ago. Super Trunks and Z Trunks, are practically different people.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]- I don't remember the details​ on the shards right now, so I'll concede these for the time being.

- Why would he do that? I remember it being implied that he respects Zuno.

- It was stated that there are only 28 planets with mortal inhabitants. That does not mean there are 28 planets period. Freeza probably enslaved the greater number of those species and sold the empty planets, with 28 left before he died.

- You seem to be equating a prodigy to a Mary Sue. A prodigy is someone with extraordinary, or rather, particularly special talents or abilities. I don't mean this in an offensive way, but how​ hard could it be to believe Trunks could become​ this strong since we last saw him? We know Super doesn't care much for consistency, so why don't we actually view it in light of that and accept​ it for what it is?

The Genki Dama Sword was only that powerful because the remaining people poured 200% into it, as opposed to the people of Earth who probably only put a little of their energy into Gokū's, even taking into consideration who motivated them. It's all in the will - at least, that's how I interpreted it.

Hopefully I'm making some sense here, cause I almost feel like I'm just rambling.[/spoiler]
Also, this is getting really off-topic again.

[sintzu]

Bardock also lessens it because it's another toei-original Goku clone that murders relentlessly, protagonist or not. I blame Toei's Z contributions for all of this. Not Super.

Actually Bardock was Toriyama's idea, when Rditz first arrives he tells Goku that he looks like their father but they did design him a bit differently at first only for Toriyama to turn him into a Goku clone.

[Kunzait_83]

I feel if the conversation is going here, it's worth noting that the notion that Toriyama only does minimal work on the series isn't true, or to be more generous, it's based on outdated information. We know that he writes a somewhat vague outline of the stories, but we can determine from the similarities between the two versions of Super that it's not as vague as Kunzait_83 would have you believe.

I'm not "having" people believe anything, I'm going by what information about the production of Super is/has been available to us. If it comes out somehow at some point that Toriyama is doing more for Super than just scribbling a few bullet point plot notes onto a used napkin, then cool, that's a whole different discussion. But to the best of anyone's knowledge bullet point plot summaries is about the gist of what he does for the Super anime, and the whole "Dragon Ball Room" takes it from there and does the actual serious gruntwork of writing the show.

Yes, he works more closely with Toyotaro and is more hands on with him for the manga, but that is NOT the same thing as the Super anime and the Super manga and anime have diverged WILDLY from one another almost from the jump. If by that metric you wanna then look to the Super manga as Toriayma's return... well even then its still not an ACTUAL return, but its certainly a lot closer to one. I just again have to question your motivations as to even WHY you're so desperate to have the guy back and further pad out an already enormous and jam packed series that most would agree probably stayed a little too far past its welcome in the mid-90s when it ended.

The atmosphere, the personalities of the new characters, the environments, and even certain poses and lines of dialogue are practically identical between the two.

Again, you're GREATLY stretching and grasping at straws trying desperately to FIND some deeper connection between the two that just isn't there. Or at least that isn't there rather to anywhere near the same degrees that you want it to be.

We also know from Toyotaro that Toriyama directly assists him when things don't match his vision, at least on the manga front. It's not unreasonable to assume he might be similarly involved in the early parts of the anime's story production either, but there's no confirmation, so take that idea for what you will...

Uh, actually YES IT IS unreasonable to assume that that's the case between both projects. Is it IMPOSSIBLE? Of course it isn't, it very well could be the case. But you have NOTHING whatsoever to BASE that assumption off of other than "Oh oh! Beerus assumed that same fighting stance in Super Manga chapter 4 as he did in Super anime episode 10! Connections, connections! Its all from Toriyama!"

Helping a manga artist that you see as an apprentice/protege work on making some new material for an old story of yours (something you can do casually and relaxed from home over a cup of coffee) is in NO way REMOTELY the same thing as hunkering down with an anime production staff in a studio or a whole TV writing team, pouring over scripting and design minutia for a whole TV series week in and week out. If you think that those two things are in ANY which way comparable and that Toriyama is just as equally up for having a go at both (based on what we've known of the guy over the years post-DB), then I'm sorry but you're just being WILLFULLY ridiculous because you just WANT the glory days of 1984-1995 to come back again.

Also, he basically penned the BoG and RoF movies (as they materialized) himself, and Super kinda relied on those for the entire beginning of the show. I know people like to pretend the retellings don't exist, but... the retellings exist.

The retellings exist yes, and he had nothing to do with them at all. Beyond their using his movie scripts as a basis, everything else about the retelling arcs came 100% from Toei.

I definitely think its cool that Toriyama took it upon himself to try his hand at screenplay writing (or script doctoring rather), but again its one thing to ask him to do one-off projects like that where there's no long term commitment. You're just NOT, at this stage in his life, gonna probably get him to commit to a fullscale series fulltime as anything other than a consultant. Which is basically what he is here. This is effectively GT with some key plot notations from him, so far as anyone is aware of at this stage.

It's not like this is something like DB Heroes masquerading as a legitimate continuation.

I'd actually argue that that's KINDA DANGEROUSLY CLOSE to what it IS actually. Its not in full-tilt Hero-levels of asinine stupidity, no... but its dipping a few of its toes into those waters definitely. I'd say its likely only a matter of time before it plunges full-in at some point the longer this goes on for, and it won't be pretty when it happens, and I'm sure most of you will immensely regret this "comeback" once it does.

Had people had a similar attitude to Star Trek: The Next Generation, we'd be down 5--ish good Seasons of a great show, 6-ish good Seasons of a just as good DS9... and a total of about half a dozen bad seasons out of 21 total by the time Voyager died (that's over a 10+ year period), bringing an end to the original Star Trek continuity. Without these continuations, Star Trek would have remained an old classic, but never would have been a phenomena.

I'd argue that Star Trek: The Next Generation and its sibling shows are all mostly godawful and outright unwatchable myself, do you're not exactly winning me over with examples like that. Do I want DB shows in a similar level of craft as TNG? Um.... how bout no? Please god no? Fuck off with that?

However, where I will give Kunzait_83 credit is that he sees the writing on the wall. Like Star Trek, if Dragon Ball does continue on, it will become divorced from both Toriyama and the style of the original, it will inevitably devolve into a giant, indiscernible pile of amorphous garbage with Kamehameha's and Golden Hair being thrown every which way.

Again.... we're already one foot in that particular grave with Super as it is. Just give it awhile longer.

Nevertheless, in every way that matters, this is new, bonafide, Toriyama-made Dragon Ball for now.

No, you DESPERATELY WANT THIS to be brand new, bonafide Toriyama-made Dragon Ball, even if all that really amounts to is him throwing a cocktail napkin with a checklist of broad story beats written on it to a Toei executive and saying "Here, go nuts". Reminds me of a Louie CK bit where he describes "the saddest possible handjob" where his wife tires out her wrists of jerking him off one day, so he had to move his wife's hands for her up and down his dick to masturbate himself to climax, which he describes as "the lowest form of sex that's even possible".

That to me is akin to calling Super "Toriyama-made DB". Super is Toriayam-made DB in the same way that CK's wife's handjob was a sex act. You guys (in a broad, general sense here) are just DESPERATE for this to come back and be a thing again like its 1993 all over again, and its sad to watch.

And again, I'm not even saying any of this as a CONDEMNATION of Toriyama, like I'm not saying any of this as if to day "That fucking lazy slacker Toriyama, he had over a decade and a half to rest, now he needs to get back to work proper making me some new DB!!!" No no, the exact opposite! I'm saying "Leave the dude the fuck alone and just let him enjoy his retirement already!" Let Dragon Ball the fuck go, accept that its over with and find other cool shit out there that's like it (or not like it at all!) to be fascinated and enriched by.

For the record by the way, there's stray, individual things in Super that I genuinely like myself! So I'm not 100% out and out down on it. But would I take all the myriad of negatives just for those small handful of positives? Do I think that stray shards of interesting ideas and cool moments are worth a cripplingly broken whole new entity? Do I think that having a few neat new things is worth introducing into Dragon Ball's waters a level of corporate toxicity its never fully had to endure before? Abso-fucking-lutely not.

Dragon Ball is not something that exists in a vacuum. It was a MASSIVE comic book and animation (and even video game!) enterprise that had a tremendous impact on not just Japanese pop culture, but GLOBAL pop culture (even well long before FUNimation ever came into it). And it lasted a LONG-ass time with a LOT of dense amounts of content, to the point that it was stretched VERY thin already by its end. Almost NO ONE was upset originally by DB finally ending when it did, and it was honestly seen at the time in '95 as something of a relief. It ran a giant creative gamut of things it could do and felt tapped out and spent by the end. And of course it has since accrued more than its share of cultural baggage in the years since.

To bring something like this back again so many years later, you can't just throw out any same old-same old shit with DB's name on it: it has to take extra steps to justify its existence and make the case "This is worth having back again, there's still new life and vitality in this universe and in these characters that can still be mined and explored".

I mean, it has to do that of course if you in any way give two shits about things like artistic integrity and whatnot, and aren't solely concerned with brand IP and merchandise profits. And I've learned going way, way back now that a lot of fans simply don't care about the only things that SHOULD matter to them (the creative value of the end result), they main;y care about having their nostalgia g-spot stroked in just the right place by marketing and merchandise and material that doesn't push boundaries or do anything fresh, but that just reminds them "Hey remember when you liked this? This was a thing, remember?"

And they even further (and most bafflingly and absurdly) take to siding with the perspective corporate bean counters and pouring over sales spreadsheets and quarterly profit totals and have gotten invested into DB's sales performances, as if that matters one goddamned bit to them as non-shareholders in Toei or Shueisha. Fans, regular, average, everyday people (most of whom aren't even Japanese, much less Toei executives) have taken to looking at Dragon Ball's sales figures for each given year as "wins" for them, like its their favorite football team they're cheering on.

"Why do you care how well Dragon Ball merch sells?"

"Cause the better it sells, the more new Dragon Ball we get!

"Yeah, but if a lot of the new DB you get ends up sucking, then what does it matter? Why even continue to support it and encourage it further?"

"Who cares? Its new Dragon Ball! That's all I want!"

This is not the mentality of a fan of something. This is not the mentality of somebody who really cares about something creative they love. This is the mentality of a fucking meth addict.

Can anyone honestly tell me exactly WHY they think that Dragon Ball should or needs to come back? I mean from a creative standpoint? What else more CAN you do at this point that it hasn't done already? I suppose there are a few stray, off the wall ideas, but nothing so monumental enough to dig it out of its grave and drag it back out of its coffin for another go-round. Certainly at least not for anything more than a few stray stand alone anime films.

Same question that has yet to be answered for me: Can anyone here honestly think of ANY real reason why a 11 year long, 40+ volume, 400+ episode, dozen+ anime film, 60 Kajillion video game-sized monstrosity simply HAS to have even MORE loaded onto its tally? Any reason that doesn't basically amount to whimpering "B-b-but I MISS this!" like a little girl trying to find her lost teddy bear?

[Hellspawn28]

If you seen BOG and ROF, I say yay. I think Super is a fun show despite the flaws that it has.

[Saago]

I think nothing better epitomizes what Kunzait_83 is saying than what happened, a while ago, in one of the episode discussion posts in the Super board.

It was one of the final episodes of the Champa arc. Every once in a while, after watching an episode, I take a look at its dedicated post, simply to see how much I agree or disagree with what everybody is saying. And, in this case, there seemed to be universal agreement: that was an outrageously good episode. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but it was basically full of comments like "best episode of Super yet, and one of the best Dragon Ball episodes ever"; "that was so good I got goosebumps"; "wow, never saw that coming. Brilliant"; "bone-chilling!" or "even if you hate Super, you have to admit this episode was perfect".

And what had happened in that particular episode? Which was the plot twist that, after 153 Dragon Ball episodes, 291 Dragon Ball Z episodes, 64 Dragon Ball GT episodes and 167 Dragon Ball Kai episodes, had managed to make virtually everybody say "Holy crap, that was amazing. Keep this coming!"?

The plot twist was this: during the final fight of the arc, Goku had used the Kaio-ken to turn the tide in his favor.

Really? I mean... the Kaio-ken had already become a bit of a tired, ridiculous thing by end of the Freeza arc, what with Goku increasing its multiplier time and time and time again just for the sake of keeping the plot going. Yet here we are, 25 years later, with the writers of the show using the freakin' Kaio-ken, of all things, as a big novelty (and people reacting as if it actually were one). Not only that: the Kaio-ken seems to have become a central element again, so that the show can keep giving the characters one crazy power boost after another. How does this bring anything at all to the table?

[sintzu]

The Kaio-ken had already become a bit of a tired, ridiculous thing by end of the Freeza arc, How does this bring anything at all to the table?

It wasn't that alone, it was the production, presentation & music that also made that episode great. It was one of the few times where not only everything came together to make a great episode, but also feel close to the original.

[Saago]

Sure, I get it. Production-wise it was a nice episode (which was, of course, emphasized by how bad some of the previous ones had been). But ultimately it was the exact same thing we have seen a gazillion times before in this very same show: it was a perfect example of a run-of-the-mill, going-thorugh-the-motions Dragon Ball, only this time with the "fanfic-vibe" dial turned up to uncomfortable levels (Kaio-ken + Super Saiyan).

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Uh, actually YES IT IS unreasonable to assume that that's the case between both projects. Is it IMPOSSIBLE? Of course it isn't, it very well could be the case. But you have NOTHING whatsoever to BASE that assumption off of other than "Oh oh! Beerus assumed that same fighting stance in Super Manga chapter 4 as he did in Super anime episode 10! Connections, connections! Its all from Toriyama!"

Helping a manga artist that you see as an apprentice/protege work on making some new material for an old story of yours (something you can do casually and relaxed from home over a cup of coffee) is in NO way REMOTELY the same thing as hunkering down with an anime production staff in a studio or a whole TV writing team, pouring over scripting and design minutia for a whole TV series week in and week out. If you think that those two things are in ANY which way comparable and that Toriyama is just as equally up for having a go at both (based on what we've known of the guy over the years post-DB), then I'm sorry but you're just being WILLFULLY ridiculous because you just WANT the glory days of 1984-1995 to come back again.

I'm really glad you responded with this, it's everything I could've hoped for. Forgive me, but I may have intentionally withheld a bit of information (which funnily enough, Sintzu linked just above, so thanks for that). We actually know not only that Toriyama personally intervenes in Toyotaro's manga, but he "supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe". Whatever you might interpret from that, it necessarily implies that Toriyama gives his approval for everything that happens. Is this necessarily indicative of the quality? Of course not, but it's enough to imply that he's more involved than you're aware of.

Also, I'm confused as to why you're portraying me as some mindless Super-loving fanboy who pees his pants every single episode when nothing could be further from the truth. I've frequently gone on record saying that Super is probably a lost cause, and that I'd rather have movie continuations if the series is to go on, but would ultimately prefer the main story being halted altogether, for my wallet's sake if nothing else.

[precita]

The introduction of 12 universes and all the different God's is the best aspect of Super. If they explore all this stuff it's excellent lore building and has potential for great plots, and we've seen some of that already.

It's hard to believe just a few years ago we thought our universe was the only universe, that Majin Buu was the most powerful creature to ever exist and that Goku and co. were the strongest characters around. And that there were no Gods or Angels or anything like that.

[Basaku]

It doesn't matter how (read: a truck of money was involved only an idiot would refuse) but Toei DID manage to get Toriyama working on new DB stories on a semi-regular basis. Life stage doesn't matter, particularly for artists. Trying to compare his involvement in Super to GT is also looking like desperate grasping at straws to distance the main events and plot ideas from Toriyama. They come from him, not Toei. Through various interviews, we know he's at the very least responsible for major plot outline for each arc and key character designs. That is way different from GT where he just knocked a few designs and paintings at the start and that was all of his involvement.

[ABED]

(read: a truck of money was involved only an idiot would refuse)

That's cynical. There are plenty of rational reasons to do things besides money, even lots of money.

[Metalwario64]

Super is addictive, people threaten to quit all the time but never do yet constantly remain negative and spend a lot of their time discussing the show they dislike, whenever Super pisses me off personally I have no desire to discuss it and get turned of Kanzenshuu and DB period.

I have never "threatened" to quit, but the reason I still watch, yet voice my complaints is because I know 100% for a fact that if I wasn't watching the series and said anything remotely negative about it, I'd be criticized for "not giving the show a fair shot", and "how can you say it's still bad if you aren't watching it anymore?", and I really don't feel like dealing with that.

[Basaku]

(read: a truck of money was involved only an idiot would refuse)

That's cynical. There are plenty of rational reasons to do things besides money, even lots of money.

Maybe, but also true more often than not, even for rich people. Besides, guilting others into not taking some money deal is also cynical and people sure love to do that (while taking every opportunity themselves to get richer). Ain't no shame in paying Toriyama what he's worth and and no shame for Toriyama to take it.

It's either that or someone else leading the new stories. Would've happened anyway, BOG initial idea and plan started at Toei. So may as well go with the original author if he's up for it

[ABED]

(read: a truck of money was involved only an idiot would refuse)

That's cynical. There are plenty of rational reasons to do things besides money, even lots of money.

Maybe, but also true more often than not, even for rich people. Besides, guilting others into not taking some money deal is also cynical and people sure love to do that (while taking every opportunity themselves to get richer). Ain't no shame in paying Toriyama what he's worth and and no shame for Toriyama to take it.

It's either that or someone else leading the new stories. Would've happened anyway, BOG initial idea and plan started at Toei. So may as well go with the original author if he's up for it

Of course there's no shame in making an honest dollar, but if money was what mattered most to people, there wouldn't be many writers or teachers.

I don't blame Toei either. They were responding to where they believed there was money to be made (i.e. demand). Far too many people have a hard time letting go and simply want more of what they liked to the point that it inevitably takes a downturn. It's why we are getting so many series revivals despite the quality almost uniformly being awful.

[ekrolo2]

It's why we are getting so many series revivals despite the quality almost uniformly being awful.

For some reason, no one rents Batman Begins or Casino Royale when reviving a franchise