Super: Yay or Nay?

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ABED
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:04 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:It's why we are getting so many series revivals despite the quality almost uniformly being awful.
For some reason, no one rents Batman Begins or Casino Royale when reviving a franchise :P
Different continuities which started over from the beginning. Dragon Ball is one single story and Super is a continuation. It's not even like Bond movies were all one giant story with events that carried over and had consequence in later movies. Hell, even the Spectre storyline in early Bond films took liberties with its own continuity whenever it saw fit. People were used to years of different interpretations of those characters. How many versions of Batman had everyone seen by 2005? There was the serials, the 60's show, the Superfriends, Batman the Animated Series, the Burton movies, Schumacher movies, etc. Dragon Ball is all one single story written by one author. There's the anime adaptation, but it follows very closely. Even GT took place in the same continuity as the show.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:26 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:It's why we are getting so many series revivals despite the quality almost uniformly being awful.
For some reason, no one rents Batman Begins or Casino Royale when reviving a franchise :P
Different continuities which started over from the beginning. Dragon Ball is one single story and Super is a continuation. It's not even like Bond movies were all one giant story with events that carried over and had consequence in later movies. Hell, even the Spectre storyline in early Bond films took liberties with its own continuity whenever it saw fit. People were used to years of different interpretations of those characters. How many versions of Batman had everyone seen by 2005? There was the serials, the 60's show, the Superfriends, Batman the Animated Series, the Burton movies, Schumacher movies, etc. Dragon Ball is all one single story written by one author. There's the anime adaptation, but it follows very closely. Even GT took place in the same continuity as the show.
Yes, I see your point. It's time for a crisis to reboot DB! ;)
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:12 pm

ABED wrote:Even GT took place in the same continuity as the show.
Z's movies and OVAs did as well. The time patrol story from the games is also set within those events. When you look at everything, the dragon ball story is getting really crowded which is something I like because I like a lot of content but I wish they'd handle it better.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:57 pm

Most of the DB movies weren't in the same continuity. They weren't in continuity at all.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:10 pm

ABED wrote:Most of the DB movies weren't in the same continuity. They weren't in continuity at all.
Z's don't fit perfectly due to plot holes but they still make sense within the contex of the main story.

In Cooler's 1st movie for example Goku should've known how to go Ssj whenever he wanted but that doesn't change the fact that it fits within the 3 year wait for the androids.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:26 pm

It's not simply plot holes. Few of the movies could ever fit within the timeframe they are shown to take place in. For instance, when would movie 2 and 3 take place?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:41 pm

ABED wrote:It's not simply plot holes. Few of the movies could ever fit within the timeframe they are shown to take place in. For instance, when would movie 2 and 3 take place?
I'd put 1 before Raditz's arrival.
2,3,4,5&6 before the androids arrive.
7 before they go to the ROSAT.
8 before the Cell games.
9 after the Cell games.
10 before the tournament.
11 is just a bad dream for everyone. :sick:
12 an alternate timeline where Buu is killed before Satan gets to him.
13 after Kid Buu is defeated.

Again, none of these fit prefectly in the timeline but they're still influnced by the main story so they still take part in the overall continuity of DB.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Trunksuu » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:54 pm

To be honest, I had a lot of hate for Super. However, I feel like its redeemed itself. The fights are animated very nicely and with the introduction of Kale and Caulifla I've begun to like it. There are still a lot of parts I don't like about it, but now I can say I no longer hate it.
Trunks: These androids are ruthless, they delight in causing pain and chaos.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by precita » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:49 pm

Episode 94 (which just aired) was one of the best episodes of Super, with fantastic writing for the main cast all around. If you need an incentive to watch Super, the recent episode is a good incentive if you don't mind spoilers or jumping to the middle of an arc. Fantastic writing for the main cast all around.

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Trickster » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:05 am

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:It's not simply plot holes. Few of the movies could ever fit within the timeframe they are shown to take place in. For instance, when would movie 2 and 3 take place?
I'd put 1 before Raditz's arrival.
2,3,4,5&6 before the androids arrive.
7 before they go to the ROSAT.
8 before the Cell games.
9 after the Cell games.
10 before the tournament.
11 is just a bad dream for everyone. :sick:
12 an alternate timeline where Buu is killed before Satan gets to him.
13 after Kid Buu is defeated.

Again, none of these fit prefectly in the timeline but they're still influnced by the main story so they still take part in the overall continuity of DB.
Movies 2, 3 and 4 cannot take place after Freeza, otherwise Goku would solve everything using ssj. Maybe the 4th one, but we still didn't have Vegeta on it. The 5th one could be in the 3 years gap, after Trunks appears for the first time, but Vegeta should have done something too, since Earth was being destroyed and someone with a ki similar to Freeza's had arrived on the planet.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:14 am

Trickster wrote:Movies 2, 3 and 4 cannot take place after Freeza, otherwise Goku would solve everything using ssj. Maybe the 4th one, but we still didn't have Vegeta on it. The 5th one could be in the 3 years gap, after Trunks appears for the first time, but Vegeta should have done something too, since Earth was being destroyed and someone with a ki similar to Freeza's had arrived on the planet.
I know they don't fully make sense but they're still influinced by the original story so they're still set within one continuity.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:15 am

That's not what continuity is.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:17 am

ABED wrote:That's not what continuity is.
Maybe I'm not using the right words but you get what I mean though right ?
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:20 am

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:That's not what continuity is.
Maybe I'm not using the right words but you get what I mean though right ?
I think I do. If I understand you right, it's the reason I watch the movies around approximately when they supposedly take place. I watch Movie 1 before episode 1 and movie 2 at the end of the Saiyan arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:23 am

ABED wrote:I think I do. If I understand you right, it's the reason I watch the movies around approximately when they supposedly take place. I watch Movie 1 before episode 1 and movie 2 at the end of the Saiyan arc.
Exactly, although they don't make a lot of sense, they somehow fit. If a reboot were to happen then none of them would make sense cause everything would be completely new.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:26 am

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:I think I do. If I understand you right, it's the reason I watch the movies around approximately when they supposedly take place. I watch Movie 1 before episode 1 and movie 2 at the end of the Saiyan arc.
Exactly, although they don't make a lot of sense, they somehow fit. If a reboot were to happen then none of them would make sense cause everything would be completely new.
Again, they don't actually fit. I watch movie 2 at the end of the Saiyan arc because the characters' development, powers, and appearances match approximately those timeframes. Piccolo is a good guy, Gohan is trained, Piccolo has the Kaio-ken, etc. However, it could never take place then just by virtue of Piccolo being dead. They are essentially an alternate DB universe.

I like watching them while watching the series instead of waiting until the end. It makes it feel like a fuller experience.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:31 am

ABED wrote:I like watching them while watching the series instead of waiting until the end. It makes it feel like a fuller experience.
Same here, it also makes the world seem a lot bigger when you take everything into account (4 series, movies & ovas).
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:35 am

It does make sense to view them like that but the movies cannot exist within the same continuity as the main events, there are too many contradictions for you to actually fit in Worlds Finest anywhere from Raditz to Cell's death.

Several guides even flat out say the DB movies exist in their own worlds, separate from the main one which makes sense as they retell main events even more blatantly than the later Z movies.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:43 am

To go back a bit regarding Toriyama's input/involvement with Super: Toriyama kick-started this idea (BoG) from a reaction he had to a certain something that had Dragon Ball on its title -- the fans wanting more and more was spurred on from there mostly. Nobody expected an entire series to manifest from a single story idea that saw a release in 2013, even with Kai being a "refresh". The announcement of Super was sudden and out-of-nowhere from my memory of it.

One thing is 100% for sure -- Super started out from a previous Toriyama story idea and will come to an end through Toriyama's intended vision. This production doesn't have a continuous stream of illustrations to pull from for seamless anime adaptation, and its rockiness on the production side and its narrative shows. It's Toriyama/TOEI on-the-go. That may be the key difference in why Toriyama's on-going input/credit has been muddled. That by no means is saying that he's putting in nearly the same amount of time/effort now as he had been in his younger days, obviously. The corporate/international market element is noticeably more felt in Super though (a modern Japanese production intended for near-immediate international distribution).

In some ways, I see Super as this cardboard box sitting in a room, that has "Dragon Ball" markered onto its sides. With candy-coated sprinkles, strewn-about party accessories, and a light raining down of confetti. It's Toriyama's/TOEI's 'Thank You' gift to fans around the world that picked up on, and thoroughly enjoyed the previous material. So much so, that its name rang through across the world. I don't think that at the time of Dragon Ball and Z, that a story that they had intended primarily for a Japanese audience would hit so big on every major continent, with dozens of ethnic backgrounds. It became universal. Super is a gratuity bonus for the world. One last "hurrah" until the end.

Or view it as: Dragon Ball All-Stars. Taglines: "Where anything goes, just roll with it, and have fun with the plethora of new characters ". "Don't forget to check-out and play as all of these new characters/transformations in the upcoming video games!".

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:46 pm

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:To go back a bit regarding Toriyama's input/involvement with Super: Toriyama kick-started this idea (BoG) from a reaction he had to a certain something that had Dragon Ball on its title -- the fans wanting more and more was spurred on from there mostly.
Not really. For many years before BoG people believed in AF and later "Hoshi", to the point that they refused to believe they were hoaxes, because they really wanted more Dragon Ball.
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