Goku's character

[ABED]

This thread began in the "when did the series drag for you" thread and it's about Goku's character. Do you think he's multidimensional? Does it matter even if he wasn't? Do you think Goku changes a lot over the course of the story?

I don't think Goku's any less dimensional than any other character in the series. His motivations are simple and in essence don't really change. He wants to be the best martial artist and that's what he's always moving towards. Even assuming he's just a 2 dimensional character, that doesn't mean 2-dimensional characters aren't great characters. Freeza is a very simple character, but one that's very interesting. It all boils down to execution. Freeza is a power luster, plain and simple. But the gentlemanly exterior that covers his sadistic true nature is so interesting and entertaining to watch.

Anyway, what say you all?

[Gog]

I'd argue that Goku, or Kid Goku at the very least considering the two characters are different - Which I will get to - Isn't a 3 Dimensional character, he's a 2 Dimensional character defined by a few traits. Nothing of interest ever happens with Kid Goku, his character on the whole only ever really has two interesting moments, His overconfidence on God's Lookout, and The Death of Kuririn.

Those two moments are the only time that anything of substance actually happens to Kid Goku on a whole. Even Kid Goku's main gag, his naivety only really works in a group setting, he's just incapable of holding a scene by his lonesome. Which is a problem in arcs like the Red Ribbon Saga where there are huge swathes of the arc dedicated to Goku traveling alone.

So, the differences between Goku, and when he was a child are slight, but drastic. During adulthood, Goku is far more selfish than when he was as a child willing to risk the very Earth itself for his battles, and letting go of complete monsters because they gave him a great fight, and can possibly give him more great battles. Interestingly enough Goku's far more merciful to his enemies than he was as a child.

This is shown well with the Ginyu's and General Black. When faced with an evil opponent Goku simply dominated them, and told them to leave the planet, when faced with a weaker opponent Kid Goku simply killed them, for being evil. Goku's also less naive than when he was as a child, and he's more mature. Also, Freeza's not just a power luster plain and simple. His character is much more than that.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think any qualities that Goku has, regardless of dimension, are to serve the premise of "Amazing strong guy goes on wacky adventures and fights uber-powerful guys!". His intelligence, his priorities, etc. shift depending on the scenario Toriyama wants to set up. In general, he's a friendly, nice guy who cares about his friends and family, and loves improving himself about as much as Hank Hill loves propane and propane accessories. However many dimensions that gives him, that's my answer.

[ABED]

I'd argue that Goku, or Kid Goku at the very least considering the two characters are different - Which I will get to - Isn't a 3 Dimensional character, he's a 2 Dimensional character defined by a few traits. Nothing of interest ever happens with Kid Goku, his character on the whole only ever really has two interesting moments, His overconfidence on God's Lookout, and The Death of Kuririn.

Those two moments are the only time that anything of substance actually happens to Kid Goku on a whole. Even Kid Goku's main gag, his naivety only really works in a group setting, he's just incapable of holding a scene by his lonesome. Which is a problem in arcs like the Red Ribbon Saga where there are huge swathes of the arc dedicated to Goku traveling alone.

So, the differences between Goku, and when he was a child are slight, but drastic. During adulthood, Goku is far more selfish than when he was as a child willing to risk the very Earth itself for his battles, and letting go of complete monsters because they gave him a great fight, and can possibly give him more great battles. Interestingly enough Goku's far more merciful to his enemies than he was as a child.

This is shown well with the Ginyu's and General Black. When faced with an evil opponent Goku simply dominated them, and told them to leave the planet, when faced with a weaker opponent Kid Goku simply killed them, for being evil. Goku's also less naive than when he was as a child, and he's more mature. Also, Freeza's not just a power luster plain and simple. His character is much more than that.

Kid Goku isn't different from when he's an adult. He's not more reckless as an adult, it's simply the scale of the threats that's changed. That's what makes it seem like he's different.

Goku didn't just kill Black because he was weaker. He gave him a chance, just like he gave Tao Pai Pai a chance to leave and repent. They didn't take Goku's mercy and so Goku killed them.

And when you listed Freeza's multidimensions, you listed a bunch of emotions. Goku goes through plenty of emotions as well. Freeza is at his core, simply a power luster. There's nothing else motivating him. That's not a knock, either. I'd prefer it for characters to have simple motivations.

[Gog]

Kid Goku isn't different from when he's an adult. He's not more reckless as an adult, it's simply the scale of the threats that's changed. That's what makes it seem like he's different.

Goku didn't just kill Black because he was weaker. He gave him a chance, just like he gave Tao Pai Pai a chance to leave and repent. They didn't take Goku's mercy and so Goku killed them.

And when you listed Freeza's multidimensions, you listed a bunch of emotions. Goku goes through plenty of emotions as well. Freeza is at his core, simply a power luster. There's nothing else motivating him. That's not a knock, either. I'd prefer it for characters to have simple motivations.

If we're going to work under the assumption that Kid Goku, and Adult Goku are the exact same character as one and the other then that only leads more credence into the idea that Goku is a 2 dimensional character. Even then the fact that Goku suddenly is starting to spare people left, and right out of the simple fact that they're giving him a good fight while he's never done such an act in Early Dragon Ball. (As far as I'm aware) or the fact Goku, Kid Goku never lets a villain go who gives him a good fight, and even then Adult Goku is more mature than he is as a child.

At the heart of it all Goku is just a more matured, and developed version of when he was a child. Or as Bulma herself puts it he simply becomes more reckless.

You're right, Goku didn't kill Black because he was weaker, he killed him because he was evil. He does outright say it in the end. Even then the only reason he was going to let Tao Pai Pai go in the first place was because he lied about never committing another evil deed again. Contrast that with the Ginyu's who not only repeatedly attacked him even when he showed mercy, and he still showed them mercy.

I never did list Freeza's emotions. I listed his character traits. Even then Freeza's not a power luster, that's not apart of his character. He was pretty much competent sitting around, and not training. His main motivation is simply, getting immortality so he can continue on his hobby of collecting planets. Of course that would eventually shift over to killing Son Goku in the end, but for awhile it was essentially collecting planets for his hobby.

[TheMikado]

I think for me I have to question how much is my anime versus manga recollection.

My perception of Goku is that he is a loving father and appreciative, if not flawed husband. Basically a decent guy who legitimately wants to see others succeed and obtain their true potential and takes pleasure in facilitating that. Kinda in a mentor/assist kid of way. I feel like we see that a lot from Goku, and while he is no hero he certain has the traits of a caring master particularly in his attitude towards Gohan, Goten & Trunks. Even recognizing Vegeta's talent and recognizing it as a "waste".

I'm not seeing those mentor traits in Super so much. Especially Goten who Goku has a lot of opportunity to train and work with personally but chooses to go elsewhere. I get he may feel Gohan has a life now and Trunks is Vegeta's responsibility but in Super there is really no excuse for Goku not personally training Goten much. This is especially after the buu saga and especially where in EoZ he still seems to have that mentoring trait.

[ABED]

Kid Goku isn't different from when he's an adult. He's not more reckless as an adult, it's simply the scale of the threats that's changed. That's what makes it seem like he's different.

Goku didn't just kill Black because he was weaker. He gave him a chance, just like he gave Tao Pai Pai a chance to leave and repent. They didn't take Goku's mercy and so Goku killed them.

And when you listed Freeza's multidimensions, you listed a bunch of emotions. Goku goes through plenty of emotions as well. Freeza is at his core, simply a power luster. There's nothing else motivating him. That's not a knock, either. I'd prefer it for characters to have simple motivations.

If we're going to work under the assumption that Kid Goku, and Adult Goku are the exact same character as one and the other then that only leads more credence into the idea that Goku is a 2 dimensional character. Even then the fact that Goku suddenly is starting to spare people left, and right out of the simple fact that they're giving him a good fight while he's never done such an act in Early Dragon Ball. (As far as I'm aware) or the fact Goku, Kid Goku never lets a villain go who gives him a good fight, and even then Adult Goku is more mature than he is as a child.

At the heart of it all Goku is just a more matured, and developed version of when he was a child. Or as Bulma herself puts it he simply becomes more reckless.

You're right, Goku didn't kill Black because he was weaker, he killed him because he was evil. He does outright say it in the end. Even then the only reason he was going to let Tao Pai Pai go in the first place was because he lied about never committing another evil deed again. Contrast that with the Ginyu's who not only repeatedly attacked him even when he showed mercy, and he still showed them mercy.

I never did list Freeza's emotions. I listed his character traits. Even then Freeza's not a power luster, that's not apart of his character. He was pretty much competent sitting around, and not training. His main motivation is simply, getting immortality so he can continue on his hobby of collecting planets. Of course that would eventually shift over to killing Son Goku in the end, but for awhile it was essentially collecting planets for his hobby.

The level of the threats escalates throughout the story. He doesn't face a supervillain until Piccolo Daimao, who was pure evil.

There's no contrast with Ginyu. Goku was never forced to kill him. He was able to stop him by trapping him in the body of a frog. And he didn't kill Black because he was evil. He killed Black because he was evil and attacked him.

And no, it doesn't lend credence to him being a 2 dimensional character, it could simply mean he was a well defined character from the beginning.

Freeza is absolutely a power luster. Those traits you listed were mostly just emotions. What do you think his planet swapping empire is? It's not his hobby. It's symptomatic of his motivation - he likes power over people. If you consider controlling his empire to be a hobby, then you don't know what a hobby is. That's what you do as a leisurely pursuit when you have time. Being emperor is who he is. He's a dictator, not a hobbyist. Freeza's sadism, his empire, and his insecurities all stem from his lust for power.

[sintzu]

Do you think he's multidimensional ?

Does it matter even if he wasn't ?

Do you think Goku changes a lot over the course of the story ?

Yes, very much so. I think he's like the rest of the developed cast of the story.

I don't know if I'd like him if he was different from how he turned out.

I think he, like everyone else gradually develops as the plot moves forward and as he meets new characters, good and bad.

[Gog]

The level of the threats escalates throughout the story. He doesn't face a supervillain until Piccolo Daimao, who was pure evil.

Tao Pai Pai was the first super villain Goku faced, and General Blue could be considered one as well.

There's no contrast with Ginyu. Goku was never forced to kill him. He was able to stop him by trapping him in the body of a frog. And he didn't kill Black because he was evil. He killed Black because he was evil and attacked him.

I wasn't referring to Ginyu, I was referring to Reacome, Jheese, and Buta all villains who not only shrugged off Goku's mercy, and attacked him, and still got even more of Goku's mercy. Which he wouldn't do as a child. Also, he kind of killed Black because he was getting away.

And no, it doesn't lend credence to him being a 2 dimensional character, it could simply mean he was a well defined character from the beginning.

If your character never changes, never evolves, and is always the same from beginning to end. Then they're a 2 Dimensional character. Even then Goku develops as a character and person throughout Dragon Ball as a whole so I don't see how he could be considered to be the exact same character.

Freeza is absolutely a power luster. Those traits you listed were mostly just emotions. What do you think his planet swapping empire is? It's not his hobby. It's symptomatic of his motivation - he likes power over people. If you consider controlling his empire to be a hobby, then you don't know what a hobby is. That's what you do as a leisurely pursuit when you have time. Being emperor is who he is. He's a dictator, not a hobbyist. Freeza's sadism, his empire, and his insecurities all stem from his lust for power.

If I were to list his emotions than I would have listed, Freeza gets angry, Freeza gets sad, etc. No, planet hunting is literally stated to be his hobby. That's why I'm calling it his hobby in the first place. Even then nothing about him lusts after power, and I have to ask what is his lust for power? Where does this show up? Why would he be lusting for power in the first place?

[ABED]

Planet trading is not his hobby. What or who stated it was his hobby? Why does that matter anyway, it clearly wasn't something he just did in his spare time. What about him doesn't lust for power? He is a dictator! That's the basic psychology of a dictator, they desire power over people. He murders populations and takes over their planets. His sadism is another example. He gets off on hurting people (i.e. overpowering people). What do you think power lust is?

Then they're a 2 Dimensional character.

Goku does change, but not fundamentally. He gets older and a little more worldly, but his motivation doesn't change. He's not a vastly different character. Even assuming you are correct that he does change and is more merciful. That change was never dramatized.

Black wasn't getting away. Black tried to kill him when Goku turned down his offer to join.

Tao Pai Pai and Blue were very strong, but Piccolo was in a whole other league from anyone up to that point.

[Gog]

Planet trading is not his hobby. What or who stated it was his hobby? Why does that matter anyway, it clearly wasn't something he just did in his spare time. What about him doesn't lust for power? He is a dictator! That's the basic psychology of a dictator, they desire power over people. He murders populations and takes over their planets. His sadism is another example. He gets off on hurting people (i.e. overpowering people). What do you think power lust is?

Thanks for asking, it's DBZ:55 Vegeta's True Power! One of the extra pages. Similar in vein to Goku and Piccolo driving a car, (and failing). Also, I do apologize, but Freeza's hobby is conquering and collecting planets to be exact. Oh, for the Power Lust part I simply mistook it in similar vein to Goku, you know fighting, getting stronger.

Goku does change, but not fundamentally. He gets older and a little more worldly, but his motivation doesn't change. He's not a vastly different character. Even assuming you are correct that he does change and is more merciful. That change was never dramatized.

Thanks for elaborating , I really did believe that you meant Goku never changed since day one.

Black wasn't getting away. Black tried to kill him when Goku turned down his offer to join.

Actually, Black was getting away. After trying to kill him, and failing Black ran away, and Goku killed him because he doesn't let bad guys get away.

[8000 Saiyan]

He's more two-dimensional to me than three-dimensional, but he's still a great character.

[Cipher]

Goku's a fantastic character, without feeling out of place within the simple landscape of Toriyama's world.

He goes from a wide-eyed child to someone burdened by reckless ennui just as Kame-Sennin predicted (an arc laid out within the first twenty chapters that takes shape over the whole of the manga -- you could almost believe it was planned).

He cares little for moral implications but manages to be a juggernaut of goodness simply by inspiring enemies through his single-minded drive for self-improvement (the ... cheerful amorality? ... of Toriyama's universe(s) in action).

He goes from someone who seems to think little about the sanctity of life to someone who values it greatly, even as his actions become more and more dangerous in the immediate. (Sparing someone like Freeza being both the ultimate moral and amoral act, taking all of Goku's motivations into account. Is it the best thing to do? The worst thing? Is he doing it because he believes in redemption or because his love for challenge has been piqued? It's both!)

He loves his friends and family, but almost loves his challenges and enemies more.

All of these exist in the character, largely without judgement from the story, and that's an impressive bit of change and nuance to pull off in a work that's so simple in its structure and plotted week-to-week. Dragon Ball gets away with more compelling character-based drama than it has any right to.

[Vijay]

Goku is a feather-weight character which makes him likable, not deep/thought provoking. Hey, its a freaking anime character. Who cares about the moral values implicated by his actions?

While I watch him, I only look him. Why? Cuz he's unique. Dont care about others around him. His voice, antics, cool personality overshadows everyone.

His actions as a kid as justifiable. Dude whacked Tao for being lethal assassin. Destroyed RRA for kingdom to come for being mean mfkers spreading terror across DB World. Killed Piccolo for his legendary demonic traits apart from avenging his friends

As Adult, he has learnt to see the light in even the darkest heart: a quality you rarely come across your typical cartoon/anime shows

His actions speak louder than words. And for most part, its for the betterment of his Chikyuu

[ABED]

Black fired a missile at him so he killed him. Fans keep referring to this great change where Goku is suddenly more merciful to his enemies. It's not really an arc. It seems more like a change, if there is one at all, Toriyama made unconsciously. It's not dramatized as a change Goku consciously made.

I'm sure plenty will disagree with me, but Goku sparing Freeza wasn't a moral act. It's a reckless act. That act of mercy was wrong.

[Vijay]

Okay. So you have a guy who swears he'll come back & finish the job. You expecting Chibi Goku drinking ice lemon tea shaking legs waiting?

Of course you crush the Battle Jacket & if Black was not quick enuf to escape, its not Goku's fault

As for Frieza, you gotta think from Goku's perspective.

Even before meeting Frieza, while Goku trained at 50-100G, Kaio's warning sparked his desire to fight against strongest tyrant in universe

At start of fight, Goku swore he'll avenge fallen Saiyans & Namekians by defeating him

Krillin's death led to SSJ Goku hell-bent on making Frieza suffer (of which Goku actually did)

As martial artist, he felt overjoyed at the prospect of watching arguably toughest baddie in the universe exerting his full-force (100%) & dat act alone must've won Goku's admiration

The longer the fight went, Goku's one-sided victory + Frieza's burnout + desperate Kienzan leading to his body sliced + pleadings to save him would melt ANYONE (except Veggie of course).

Goku's act was not reckless (even if he admitted his naivety to Future Trunks), but proof that Son Goku will always be Son Goku. No Legendary Super Saiyan status or bloodthirst gene will ever overwhelm or consume the pure soul, Son Goku

[Lord Beerus]

Goku is very layered character if you take a deeper look at him.

As a kid, Goku had no qualms about killing his enemies, but as the series progressed and he got older, he started to mellow out more. There's also the fact that Goku, as a child, had no concept of the morality of taking lives when he was blowing up Red Ribbon Army vehicles. He'd lived most of his life alone in the woods. He barely understood death, thinking that when he accidentally killed his grandfather, his grandfather just became the 4-star ball. There are sometimes he killed purposely though such as killing a fleeing Tambourine and later his father King Piccolo to avenge Krillin, not that Tambourine or Piccolo didn't deserve it. Part of his no kill policy came later when many of his worst enemies became his loyal friends, realising that if they could change, anyone could. When he does finally use lethal force against villains like Freeza and Cell, it's because he's realised they're beyond redemption and rotten to the core.

As a Saiyan, it's in his blood to love fighting and combat, and that love for fighting sometimes comes off as a negative to humans, gods, and even other aliens. He is regarded with unease whenever he shows such excitement for battle, with one of Goku's friends even calling him a monster for being so excited about a fight over when the entire planet hangs on the brink of destruction. His love of fighting has also caused him to make decisions that aren't very defensible, or even stupid. Sparing Vegeta's life after their battle just so that he could fight him again, for example, or sending his own son to fight Cell, gambling that Gohan would awaken his hidden power in time to ultimately win, even giving a Senzu Bean to Cell so that Gohan gets a fair match against him, rather than a better chance to win and save the world and abandoning his family and friends to train a child he just met so that child could become more powerful and protect the earth when Goku dies. Further evidence of this is in Battle of Gods when Goku's morality is questioned because of his love of fighting. On the other hand, he doesn't go looking for these kinds of situations, and is content to live a quiet life in the countryside, albeit one involving a lot of physical training. He seems to be aware that these situations find him, which may be part of it. So while Goku is genuinely a kind hearted person, who can make selfless decisions and does have good intentions most of the time, he also can be a horrible judge of character, unable to contain his Saiyan urges for a good battle or challenge, and at times, he can even be a downright selfish bastard, and even openly admits to his selfishness.

Goku also usually expresses himself in the most unfiltered way possible, which can interpreted as rude or impartial, or to even such a degree, that it can be practically seen as non-human. And I honestly don't think he's ever truly completely aware of just how "alien" his responses can be on certain delicate scenarios. Such was when he nonchalantly decided that staying dead was better for everyone without really taking the time to consider how his family would feel about it. Only to come back to life permanently seven years later, and then ten years later, he would leave his family again in a heartbeat, with only the promise of coming back every so often and then saying "Goodbye" to his family and friends, before leaving for an unspecified amount of time to live and train with some child he met. Decisions like that relate back to my points of Goku being selfless as well as very selfish.

Goku's idea of parenting is also a bit skewed. while he'll appropriately go "papa wolf" if anyone messes with his family, Goku doesn't put a lot of priority in actually raising those kids. He's more than happy to ditch his family if the mood strikes him or something else catches his interest. This was implied for years and eventually confirmed by Toriyama to be part of his nature as an alien; Saiyans didn't raise their kids the same way humans do, and children were mostly expected to fend for themselves from a very early age. Goku just doesn't have a nesting instinct. Considering how his sons turned up, it may be possible that Saiyans (including half ones) become relatively independent at an earlier age and thus why his two sons turned out well (as well as how Goku was raised himself.) But at the same time, it can be denied that Goku doesn't love his wife and children, be he very much does. And he was willing to sacrifice his life to protect his family twice. And choosing to stay dead after dying the second time around was a decision he made as he perceived that with his presence everyone he cared about would be safe. And had the confidence that Gohan would protect the world in his steed should another threat arise. So at the very least he is family man but not so much a father in the sense that he's will to go out of his way to ensure his family is safe, as any father would, and welcomes the idea of giving his life make sure that his family with a smile. But at the same token, he doesn't really do much to get invested in what Gohan want to do in the future and greatly misjudges his character during the Cell Games thinking that he relishes the thrill of combat like he does, when he really doesn't at all. And when the world doesn't need protecting or lives don't need resurrecting, his family do need some kind of financial support to make sure they, you know, eat and have clean cloths to wear on their backs. In terms of being a breadwinner, Goku is really not suited for the role, in the slightest. And it really wasn't until Super that we actually saw him actively taking a job and supporting his family financially.

I'd personally say that Goku is very much comparable to classical heroes, much like Hercules, where he is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, but the fashion of which he will go about it very morally ambiguous and questionable. For every time Goku was willing to go out of his way to help people, something that very much more common when he is a child than he is an adult, he often contributes the plot moving in a negative way due to his inherit Saiyan nature of thriving for a challenge and for a fight, even when the circumstances for that can have negative connotations. We see it in the Saiyan arc, we see it in the Freeza arc, we see it in the Cell arc and we see it in the Majin Boo arc. His blood knight characteristics are undeniably a recurring trait when Goku reaches adulthood, and throughout the second half of the story. He's shown to have great love and care for all whom concern him, but being born from the race he was, who were basically a race of blood-thirsty, battle loving, planet conquering space pirates, often lead to his judgement being very clouded, and as a result, his decisions which are often fueled by his eagerness to improve himself and seek a challenge, which can sometimes come back to bite him in the ass and affect those who he cares for. And how handles those scenarios are all the more intriguing because of his unconventional view the world.

Goku is an incredibly flawed and unconventional character. He's not your standard hero/superhero in the slightest. His characteristics and mannerisms just makes him stand out so much from the usual, generic, two dimensional shonen manga/anime protagonists we see these days. And I love him for that more than anything and I hope he continues to act like this.

Son Goku rules!

[Cure Dragon 255]

You meant "It CANT be denied he loves his family"

[Lord Beerus]

You meant "It CANT be denied he loves his family"

I can believed I missed that error.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Goku's an interesting character for sure. A bit more layered than people give him credit for.. a blue collar, challenge hungry, ridiculously strong, confident man-child that occasionally has to reconcile with the burden of responsibility thrown on him as "Earth's Savior".

Unfortunately Super has robbed him of almost every trait that made him a likable and layered character, reducing him to a single IQ, one dimensional adrenaline junkie.