GT vs. Super: Which is more damaging to the series' image?

[lancerman]

It's kind of amazing that there are people who still actually think Goku was going all out against Kuriren and 17. Especially in 17's case where it was flat out stated that both were not going all out. Even funnier in the Kuriren case to be honest. They both locked beams and Goku quickly got an advantage.

[Dbzk1999]

If he's holding back, why use his god form?

Intimidation.

Goku knew that he could easily blow away Krillin just in his base form alone. But that's not what he was looking to achieve. He wanted to test Krillin's nerve and bravery in a dynamic scenario that Krillin has never been in before: going toe-to-toe with a person who can wield otherworldly ki. Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin. Whether it be a fraction. A fraction of a fraction. Or a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. I mean, we see Goku and Vegeta play freakin baseball as Super Saiyan Blue's and they don't kill anyone even in that circumstance. So I think Goku is very capable of monitoring how much ki his outputs in any of Super Saiyan form regardless of how strong it is.

The point of SSJB being utilized was to send of an impression what kind fighters Krillin may be up against. And Goku knows full well that Krillin is prone to getting nervous even from just sensing immense strength and he's never seriously fought an opponent who has Godly ki. So Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react he faced such an opponent with an intimidating presence and aura to them. That why Goku literally asks Krillin what will he do once Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue. And although Krillin was initially nervous, he didn't back down at all, and even showed the sheer willpower and determination to fight back, much to Goku's surprise. It was such an awesome moment for the Krillin's character. Especially consider how much the show built up to that moment. If anything, Goku using SSJB shows that he has an immense amount of respect and belief in for Krillin.

The amount of head canon you put into that essay just shows you how weak the writing and poorly executed it is.

Oh please tell, what part of that was head canon?

[Torturephile]

Seems the thread got derailed. Anyways...

I will only go over current days because I was only three when GT ended in Japan, and I never got to see it until I was 11, let alone I have never been to Japan. Considering Super is what's drawing people's attention nowadays since it's the current Dragon Ball show, it may be damaging the series' reputation more than GT is, but I would not say by much. Super was already remembered by some in its infancy for having a bland soundtrack, for its choppy animation and art in important scenes, for its bland or bad storytelling, for its lack of attitude unlike its predecessors, etc. While the general consensus is that it has recovered, not many can say it's gotten to the level of Z at least or anywhere close, and several people still dismiss the show as an all-around bad product for all the reasons that have been parroted (even by me as well) these two years it's been around. Sure, some of them can't get past episode 5 or so, but even on this thread you see some legitimate points like odd characterization of Goku and warped power levels of people like Future Trunks, and the missed opportunities of further exploring things like planet Sadala.

On the other hand, GT is just there. Much of the complaining it used to get has been passed on to Super. Still, almost all random polls I've seen on the net people prefer Super over it, a few times Super winning by a landslide and even some of those polls are from Super's darker days. My only opinion on GT is that it was more consistently bland than Super, while Super can be either great or a total disaster depending on the episode. Can't say much else about it as I hadn't seen it since 2007.

The first two series, which most people remember, are still there for people to enjoy, and random clips on YouTube of them still get millions of views, and they still have dedicated websites with fairly active communities. Video games are where it's at for some people, for what I can tell, taking into account how much attention that Dragon Ball FighterZ game has gotten this week.

[TheMikado]

^ now that I'm thinking about Super has been running for 2 years now. They fact that they are still labeling them Z games rather than Super already says something about Supers contemporary reception versus Z.

My take is that GT did very little in changing previous lore that was established in Z or possibly merely implied. Super by contrast seems to have a lot of changes that people may not be too pleased about and may alter our understanding of previous events in Super so, judging on your feeling of Super it can leak into Z too. Conversely you can hate GT and everything about it without really altering your feelings on Z.

[lancerman]

^ now that I'm thinking about Super has been running for 2 years now. They fact that they are still labeling them Z games rather than Super already says something about Supers contemporary reception versus Z.

My take is that GT did very little in changing previous lore that was established in Z or possibly merely implied. Super by contrast seems to have a lot of changes that people may not be too pleased about and may alter our understanding of previous events in Super so, judging on your feeling of Super it can leak into Z too. Conversely you can hate GT and everything about it without really altering your feelings on Z.

Not really. In America alone Z has been the common descriptor for Dragon Ball for nearly 20 years. In most of the world Super is just starting up an official dub. I think Freeza just got reasurected the first time in the American dub. No matter what it would take awhile for Super to supplant the most popular incarnation of the series that had a nearly two decade honey moon period of constant games and merchandise immortalizing it. That's not really a reflection of Super.

[TheMikado]

^ now that I'm thinking about Super has been running for 2 years now. They fact that they are still labeling them Z games rather than Super already says something about Supers contemporary reception versus Z.

My take is that GT did very little in changing previous lore that was established in Z or possibly merely implied. Super by contrast seems to have a lot of changes that people may not be too pleased about and may alter our understanding of previous events in Super so, judging on your feeling of Super it can leak into Z too. Conversely you can hate GT and everything about it without really altering your feelings on Z.

Not really. In America alone Z has been the common descriptor for Dragon Ball for nearly 20 years. In most of the world Super is just starting up an official dub. I think Freeza just got reasurected the first time in the American dub. No matter what it would take awhile for Super to supplant the most popular incarnation of the series that had a nearly two decade honey moon period of constant games and merchandise immortalizing it. That's not really a reflection of Super.

By contrast GT had a game long before it was dubbed overseas.... just saying if we're comparing the two in this thread. I've stated it before, Z and Super run pretty close to the same time slot and Z has been out performing it often lately.

[lancerman]

^ now that I'm thinking about Super has been running for 2 years now. They fact that they are still labeling them Z games rather than Super already says something about Supers contemporary reception versus Z.

My take is that GT did very little in changing previous lore that was established in Z or possibly merely implied. Super by contrast seems to have a lot of changes that people may not be too pleased about and may alter our understanding of previous events in Super so, judging on your feeling of Super it can leak into Z too. Conversely you can hate GT and everything about it without really altering your feelings on Z.

Not really. In America alone Z has been the common descriptor for Dragon Ball for nearly 20 years. In most of the world Super is just starting up an official dub. I think Freeza just got reasurected the first time in the American dub. No matter what it would take awhile for Super to supplant the most popular incarnation of the series that had a nearly two decade honey moon period of constant games and merchandise immortalizing it. That's not really a reflection of Super.

By contrast GT had a game long before it was dubbed overseas.... just saying if we're comparing the two in this thread. I've stated it before, Z and Super run pretty close to the same time slot and Z has been out performing it often lately.

Z was the peak of the series and is what Dragon Ball is to most people. Final Bout was an anomaly that was released off the heels of Z initially and then re released in the middle of Z's run to cash in. That's not really a great barometer. Also it's one game.

It's just a really bad barometer to use to judge Super's success. In the grand scheme of things, the worst stereotypes from Dragon Ball come from.... Z. Super isn't going to change that. GT was trash for the most part and didn't change that. Nothing's going to change how the franchise is perceived. I'd argue the last two episodes of Super could hold up to any 2 episodes of Z period and the show will never supplant Z.

[TheGreatness25]

By contrast GT had a game long before it was dubbed overseas.... just saying if we're comparing the two in this thread. I've stated it before, Z and Super run pretty close to the same time slot and Z has been out performing it often lately.

Yeah, and who were the characters in this "GT" game?

GT adult Goku (who literally appeared in the first episode), Super Saiyan GT adult Goku, GT Pan, GT kid Goku, Super Saiyan GT kid Goku, GT Trunks, GT Super Saiyan Trunks, Super Saiyan 4 Goku, great ape Baby-Vegeta (non-playable), Piccolo... And then we got Z Super Saiyan Vegeta, Z powered-up Gohan, Z Cell, Z kid Boo, Z Freeza, Z Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Z Super Saiyan future Trunks, and Z Super Vegetto.

Basically there weren't even any villains from GT in this game besides one version of Baby. This was called "GT" just to promote it and probably to make it feel "new." It's a different world out there today and the series itself holds most of its stock as "Z" -- not literally, but it's certainly most recognizable that way.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I'm lost what even is the point of this thread? Super isn't even close to damaging the series like at all. Kai did it got plugged after less than 100 episodes. Super has exceeded expectations and Bandai's estimates on how DB was gonna make was exceeded. The franchise is getting stronger each year since Super has started. It's no way comparable to GT at all, the idea that Super is overwhelmingly hated is a fabricated myth based of the fact haters are louder, evidence obviously points to the contrary.

[dbs fanboy]

Neither of them damaged the franchise.
Ssj 4 is one of the most loved super saiyan forms, GT characters were cool looking and it was cool to use them in games and GT had the best ending in the franchise.

Super got issues but once it started improving it got really fucking good, and the more it improves the more popular it gets. And have you seen the super related merchandise?........ this show is a monster.

[dbs fanboy]

If he's holding back, why use his god form?

Intimidation.

Goku knew that he could easily blow away Krillin just in his base form alone. But that's not what he was looking to achieve. He wanted to test Krillin's nerve and bravery in a dynamic scenario that Krillin has never been in before: going toe-to-toe with a person who can wield otherworldly ki. Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin. Whether it be a fraction. A fraction of a fraction. Or a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. I mean, we see Goku and Vegeta play freakin baseball as Super Saiyan Blue's and they don't kill anyone even in that circumstance. So I think Goku is very capable of monitoring how much ki his outputs in any of Super Saiyan form regardless of how strong it is.

The point of SSJB being utilized was to send of an impression what kind fighters Krillin may be up against. And Goku knows full well that Krillin is prone to getting nervous even from just sensing immense strength and he's never seriously fought an opponent who has Godly ki. So Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react he faced such an opponent with an intimidating presence and aura to them. That why Goku literally asks Krillin what will he do once Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue. And although Krillin was initially nervous, he didn't back down at all, and even showed the sheer willpower and determination to fight back, much to Goku's surprise. It was such an awesome moment for the Krillin's character. Especially consider how much the show built up to that moment. If anything, Goku using SSJB shows that he has an immense amount of respect and belief in for Krillin.

The amount of head canon you put into that essay just shows you how weak the writing and poorly executed it is.

That's not headcanon, it's literally what the show was doing. Goku fights Krillin, he's obviously stronger than him so he doesn't need to use ssj blue. Then he goes ssgss and say and i quote: "so what will you do know?" 18 states that in a fight against ssj blue Goku, Krillin doesn't stand a chance, and before they even fought, she warned Krillin saying :" you're facing son Goku". So there's no issue, unless of course you think that Goku can't control his own energy and that he wanted to kill Krillin in his fight.

[sintzu]

Super was already remembered by some in its infancy for having a bland soundtrack, for its choppy animation and art in important scenes, for its bland or bad storytelling, for its lack of attitude unlike its predecessors, etc.

While the general consensus is that it has recovered, not many can say it's gotten to the level of Z at least or anywhere close

I think that could've been avoided if the manga was weekly in Shonen jump cause overall it's been very close to the original and the manga is usually what people use to judge a product.

It hasn't recovered yet but it's getting better. I don't think it'll ever get to Z or Toyotaro's level but at least they're trying to improve things.

^ now that I'm thinking about Super has been running for 2 years now. They fact that they are still labeling them Z games rather than Super already says something about Supers contemporary reception versus Z.

Z is and always will be the main product of the franchise so regardless of how popular Super is, Z will always be what people think of when they think DB.

[floofychan333]

Even my non-DB fan friends know that GT sucked and they can't tell Goku and Bardock apart.

How can they know something that is not a fact?

The answer to the original question is: None of them for real. I know a lot of people who are casual consumers, know GT and do not give a crap about any of the aspects that are so criticised, nor do they know these things. Everyone I know who hates GT hates it because they are only aware of a certain version that does not even half reflect what GT truly is or the don't give it a chance or they hop aboard the antii-hype-hype train.

Same goes for Super.

Basically whenever I bring up Dragon Ball my friends will say 3 things: 1. "Goku, why do you get more powerful when you scream?" 2. "Is Freeza a guy or a girl? and 3. "OMG GT sux"

[Basaku]

Even my non-DB fan friends know that GT sucked and they can't tell Goku and Bardock apart.

How can they know something that is not a fact?

Popular perception. How many people you think watched Batman & Robin? Doesn't change the fact that the 'perception' among general public and media is that it sucked and put Batman franchise on hold for 8 years.

[precita]

Or better yet, the Star Wars prequels. They get a tremendous amount of hatred, even from people who probably didn't even watch them.

[Cetra]

Basically whenever I bring up Dragon Ball my friends will say 3 things: 1. "Goku, why do you get more powerful when you scream?" 2. "Is Freeza a guy or a girl? and 3. "OMG GT sux"

What is it exactly what you want to tell me with this? That your friends are part of the anti-hype-hype train that just exists because of peer pressure and no normal thinking, thus are not part of those who dislike GT for legitimate reasons?

Popular perception. How many people you think watched Batman & Robin? Doesn't change the fact that the 'perception' among general public and media is that it sucked and put Batman franchise on hold for 8 years.

You did not quite understand my post. Popular perception is not equal to knowing something as a fact that cannot be known as a fact. If anything they know of the fact that the opinion of many about it is not the greatest. That was the entire point why I asked. They can know that GT is disliked and seen as garbage by many but they cannot "know that GT sucked" because "GT sucked" is not a fact. Even if 10/10 rate it badly. Just like it is a fact that many people hate Dragon Ball Evolution but it still is not a fact that Dragon Ball Evolution is garbage. When can establish a rating system in which these things are rated as such but no one is forced to rate with that system and so it is also not universal, not state of truth that really counts at all costs other than for set context.

[Dbzfan94]

Would you really be any more scared falling 10 than you would if you fell 2 miles? Either way you are dead.

I would be. A 10 mile drop is much more intimidating and a lot more painful, as well as giving me much more time to anticipate the painful landing.

You'd be dead on impact either way so that wouldn't really matter

[Kanassa]

I would be. A 10 mile drop is much more intimidating and a lot more painful, as well as giving me much more time to anticipate the painful landing.

You'd be dead on impact either way so that wouldn't really matter

And? My point was that i'd be more scared.

[Draconic]

I don't think either damaged anything. People who like Dragon Ball don't like it any less if they don't like every single part of the franchise, be it Super or GT; people who dislike Dragon Ball dislike it as a whole, cause whatever it is about the show they don't like, it's probably prevalent in all shows; and people who are indifferent to it or just super casuals couldn't care less either way.

GT made much less verve when it came out, but at that point Dragon Ball fatigue was in store, so it's understandable. It being generally accepted as sucking is pretty much a meme, so I don't think should be taken that much into account. Everyone who's opinion is worth a damn knows there's good in there no matter what their feelings about it are. Not to mention it's still popular enough that content originating in it is still used even today, to great results, in adjacent material like video games and merchandise. It took a different approach to Dragon Ball and, while at the time probably not to the desired result, in hindsight that was very brave and respectable.

Super on the other hand is a juggernaut. It built up on the success of the two previous movies and taken the franchise to heights no one expected Dragon Ball to ever reach again. Like with GT, no matter the feelings people have for it, they accept there is good stuff along the bad. It had a lot of huge production problems early on but still managed to come this far and has given some of the highest highs the series ever had, in spite of that, in any department. And, what is most importantly doing is bringing new, young fans to the show, which is great because it will lead them to the old stuff too and so, the great piece of work that is the original won't ever fall unrecognized by people.

If we are to dissect the artistic merits of each, which is an entirely different topic (for a thread on this very section), GT was more ambitious, trying to revitalize a stalling franchise by going in another direction, so it's failings are harder but worth of respect. Super on the other hand is not a show trying to be much more than it sells itself to be; what you see is what you get with it: stupid fun for kids and childish people, making it's shortcomings easier to digest and worth a damn for being honest.

The thing is, Dragon Ball is and has always been a huge thing. From the beginning, with it coming from household name Toriyama, and all the way to present day where it dominates everything without really trying that much. Those kind of franchises are very hard to damage because they will always have fans willing to give a shot to anything new and hoping for the best, no matter what bad apples came in the past.

In some circles it gets a bad reputation, but with the people who believe the show is not good in the first place, spin-offs and side stories like GT and Super are not even on the table when talking about it. Sometimes they might use the lesser parts of the series as arguments for their disdain, but again, they cling to those to show their complaints for it as a whole.

That's fine, normal even. But I don't think we should really entertain the idea Dragon Ball is damaged in any way. Sure, it has it's hiccups and misgivings, but the fact new people still discover it and old fans return to it shows that it's still strong and bringing joy to all kinds of folk.

[Captain Strawberry]

GT as flawed as it was, at least tried to be its own thing while Super although is overall better, is living on Z nostalgia and is a big merchandise commercial.

With GT being mostly ignored and Super being a mega $$$ hit, most will say GT did more harm cause no one payed much attention to it but that's why I think it didn't do much harm, no one cared about it and to most the franchise was the manga and the 2 original anime. Super on the other hand being so popular seems to be ruining its reputation due to how toy based it is and everyone being aware of it.

Be honest. It's Vegeta's screen time *runs away*