GT vs. Super: Which is more damaging to the series' image?

[sintzu]

So many of you talk about Z like it's a separate or stand alone series.

That's because it's written kind of like that. It takes everything into account but it's also taking the story in a completely new way and is written very differently from what came before it.

[ABED]

So many of you talk about Z like it's a separate or stand alone series.

That's because it's written kind of like that. It takes everything into account but it's also taking the story in a completely new way and is written very differently from what came before it.

Except that it's not. It's only changing directions in the way the story had several times before (from the Pilaf arc to the 21st Budokai and the 22nd Budokai to the Piccolo Daimao arc). That doesn't make it a standalone.

[Luso Saiyan]

Oh look, another thread with a presumptuous title...

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

That's because it's written kind of like that. It takes everything into account but it's also taking the story in a completely new way and is written very differently from what came before it.

Except Toriyama never wrote everything after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai as a separate standalone story, he wrote them as part of a single one.

[hectorgf]

Well, because of Super a lot of people will start to think that Goku is just a goofy guy that get a boner when someone talks about fighting.

[NintendoBlaze53]

In terms of the series image, I would say the series which regressed and went backwards the most would be the most damaging. And that is GT easy. Keep in mind I'm not saying which series is worse, I'm saying which one does the most things right in terms of the 4 series story that makes up Dragon Ball.

While Super has it's narrative problems from the rest of Dragon Ball, namely Goku's characterization. GT did far worse things for the narrative of Dragon Ball. Namely making every character but Goku worthless. Series image implies looking at the whole thing together and saying "which part makes the whole story get bad". GT wrote out fan favorite characters, took some great concepts and did them poorly and all around was just not a fun time. One thing about GT that helps the series image is that ending thou, it's perfect.

As for Super, it feels like a natural progression unlike the regression that GT was. Super is introducing new concepts such as Gods and the multiverse which last longer then an Arc, similar to how Z did with Saiyans. Super has made old characters have purpose again. Some may say it's nostalgia baiting, which yes it is, but from a narrative perception you want to keep stories going and keep characters growing to make your series image retain, especially when you have such a large and diverse cast as Dragon Ball. Not focus on only 1-2 characters and ignore the rest, that's what killed Bleach and Naruto. Meanwhile One Piece which is the king of never forgetting characters is still going strong.

TL;DR, Super progresses the series while GT regresses the series. Thus GT is more damaging to the narrative of Dragon Ball as a whole.

[ABED]

Not focus on only 1-2 characters and ignore the rest, that's what killed Bleach and Naruto. Meanwhile One Piece which is the king of never forgetting characters is still going strong.

That's a tad reductive.

[MyStIc GoTeNkS]

IMO the only objectively good part of dbz is from raditz to frieza on namek and I honestly think if super actually makes some good new villains they could surpass Z, despite the retcons and all that BS, instead of doing frieza and tournaments over and over.

[FoolsGil]

GT: Time heals all wounds
Super: The marks are still fresh.

But let's say 20 years from now and we took a critical eye to both series' I think you can find more wrong in the first 64 episodes of Super, than the entire series of GT. And that's saying something. Honestly, after everything that's happened, I think I can actually watch GT and not be mad at anything.

[lancerman]

GT: Time heals all wounds
Super: The marks are still fresh.

But let's say 20 years from now and we took a critical eye to both series' I think you can find more wrong in the first 64 episodes of Super, than the entire series of GT. And that's saying something. Honestly, after everything that's happened, I think I can actually watch GT and not be mad at anything.

Well roughly half of that is a retelling of the films, which if we are being honest, in 20 years are still going to be seen as the cleaner and more definitive ways to watch it.

Also I disagree. The problems GT had were far deeper. Turning Goku into a kid is more of an egregious error, turn off, and reversal of progress than anything that you could ever claim happened in Super so far. That one move right there hurt all of GT for a good chunk of fans. That plus the 10 year time skip. You have to realize that GT characters were so far removed from the real last time we saw them in Z that they were all mostly unrecognizable. There were the 10 years that took place from Boo's death to the tournament with Oob, then ANOTHER 10 years. So you had a much older cast and we barely saw any of them grow to where they were.

That specifically hurt Goku because you had a much older Goku who nothing like Kid Goku from Dragon Ball anymore but he looked kid Goku and not the more mature Goku we were starting to see towards the end of Z, that could feasibly become what he was in GT. He just really wasn't much like any other version of Goku. He felt like how someone who didn't understand the character would write him. That was made even worse by how SSJ4 turned him into a generic "badass" anime hero. So you took the main hero, made him look how he looked at the start of the series, gave him a different personality, then gave him a form with another completely different personality. The other main hero was Pan who was nobody we knew because she was an infant the last time we saw her. Trunks likewise was far too different from Future or kid Trunks. So the three main members of the cast were nothing like how we knew them from before.

This was made worse because now Gohan was way too far into his scholar schtick to ever revert back to anything interesting. Goten was taken out of the fight game and made was unrecognizable because of the time skip. Kuriren, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and 18 were really too old to matter (and in 18's case only really mattered when she randomly popped up in the Super 17 arc). Piccolo got a good death, but did nothing else in the show. So every single one of those characters got a better shake in Super.

Vegeta was the only character you could truthfully say kept his personality and was a relevant fighter for the duration of GT. Even so, it's hard to really say he was used even remotely as effectively as in Super used him. His character actually grew in Super and his maturity showed far more.

Even Freeza in Super was a card board cut out.

You could just tell the extra involvement of Toriyama in Super did far more for the characters. There's no character I can rationally say was better in GT than in Super.

That's before we even get into story. Dragonball was a story that constantly expanded each arc. Super expanded each arc. The first one we got a new God. The second we learned a little bit more about that God and his power and got more background on Freeza and his empire. The third arc we saw another universe. The 4th we went even deeper into Trunks' timeline and saw another god become a new threat. Now we are seeing older characters in an expanded setting and learning about over 10 universes.

In GT every arc outside of the first was Earth based. Every new addition was in some way a retread. Dr Myuu was a space Dr. Gero. Bebi was a cool villain where they were clever to use an interesting bit of back story from the initial Saiyan arc. Eventually that turned into a Goku vs Vegeta fight. Super 17 was a retread and all the Hell fighters were just cheap nostalgia. The Dragons were a nod back to Elder Kai warning the heroes about the Dragon Balls. Each one represented something from the past. The final fight was the exact same thing as the Boo fight. Goku and Vegeta fuse, get cocky and unfuse, giant spirit bomb that every contributes too, the end.

At least Beerus, Zamasu, Hit, and half the other universe fighters we are learning about are original. Far better than anything with got GT. The arc people complain most about is the Freeza arc, where let's be honest was the only one where you can say they were stalling by adapting the films. Even there they did Freeza better than they did him in GT. I can't even say that arc was worse than the Super 17 arc. Also the payoff of that is we have an awesome Freeza in the Universal Survival arc who is better and more nuanced than any villain in GT.

Here are the biggest things that Super did worse than GT.

1. The animation in GT was far more consistent. That said Super at it's absolute best is leagues above nearly anything in the franchise. In fairness, Super at it's worst can be absolute crap and worse than anything in the franchise.

2. The power scaling in Super is far more suspect. The flipside is two fold. In GT they didn't power scale, but a lot of the characters felt a lot weaker and most of the cast was pretty irrelevant despite that. Whereas in Super the giant power scaling was still used to bring older beloved characters back in relevancy.

I just don't really know where you can look at both in totality and say GT was better than Super.

[lancerman]

The Pilaf saga just wasn't very good at all, the only canon saga I'd say that for. It started off just fine in the first few chapters, it was from when Oolong was introduced up until the end of the saga was the low point of the series.

Which of course is why Toriyama changed it up considerably for the next saga.

The RRA saga was alright but that was about it. The King Piccolo Saga was better but still not that great. Then all you had inbetween were Tournaments which were great.

That sums up the original Dragon Ball. Villain after the Dragon Balls, Tournament, Villain after the Dragon Balls, Tournament, Villain after the Dragon Balls, Tournament.

Z > Super > Original > GT

I delineate between the feeling of the story. The Tao Pai Pai fight through the Freeza fight was probably Dragon Ball in it's purest form. A never ending quest to get stronger and fight better enemies while saving the world from villainy with colorful new characters and a touch of adventure. Before that the series was still finding it's footing. After that the series started parodying it's most popular elements. It also built upon itself. Goku got stronger and really grew as a character into his hallmark traits in the RRA arc, the Tenshinhan tournament was the first test of Goku's new strength and resolve, then enter King Piccolo, who led into the Piccolo Jr tournament where Goku finally became the strongest fighter on Earth. Then there's a break where the status quo is the same plus Gohan. Goku's the strongest guy and Piccolo is his mortal enemy trying to best him. Enter Raditz and it's a nonstop escalation to Goku defeating Freeza. To me they aren't different series and it's hard to separate how late Dragon Ball contributed to Early Dragon Ball Z.

[FoolsGil]

GT: Time heals all wounds
Super: The marks are still fresh.

But let's say 20 years from now and we took a critical eye to both series' I think you can find more wrong in the first 64 episodes of Super, than the entire series of GT. And that's saying something. Honestly, after everything that's happened, I think I can actually watch GT and not be mad at anything.

Well roughly half of that is a retelling of the films, which if we are being honest, in 20 years are still going to be seen as the cleaner and more definitive ways to watch it.

Also I disagree. The problems GT had were far deeper. Turning Goku into a kid is more of an egregious error, turn off, and reversal of progress than anything that you could ever claim happened in Super so far. That one move right there hurt all of GT for a good chunk of fans. That plus the 10 year time skip. You have to realize that GT characters were so far removed from the real last time we saw them in Z that they were all mostly unrecognizable. There were the 10 years that took place from Boo's death to the tournament with Oob, then ANOTHER 10 years. So you had a much older cast and we barely saw any of them grow to where they were.

That specifically hurt Goku because you had a much older Goku who nothing like Kid Goku from Dragon Ball anymore but he looked kid Goku and not the more mature Goku we were starting to see towards the end of Z, that could feasibly become what he was in GT. He just really wasn't much like any other version of Goku. He felt like how someone who didn't understand the character would write him. That was made even worse by how SSJ4 turned him into a generic "badass" anime hero. So you took the main hero, made him look how he looked at the start of the series, gave him a different personality, then gave him a form with another completely different personality. The other main hero was Pan who was nobody we knew because she was an infant the last time we saw her. Trunks likewise was far too different from Future or kid Trunks. So the three main members of the cast were nothing like how we knew them from before.

This was made worse because now Gohan was way too far into his scholar schtick to ever revert back to anything interesting. Goten was taken out of the fight game and made was unrecognizable because of the time skip. Kuriren, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and 18 were really too old to matter (and in 18's case only really mattered when she randomly popped up in the Super 17 arc). Piccolo got a good death, but did nothing else in the show. So every single one of those characters got a better shake in Super.

Vegeta was the only character you could truthfully say kept his personality and was a relevant fighter for the duration of GT. Even so, it's hard to really say he was used even remotely as effectively as in Super used him. His character actually grew in Super and his maturity showed far more.

Even Freeza in Super was a card board cut out.

You could just tell the extra involvement of Toriyama in Super did far more for the characters. There's no character I can rationally say was better in GT than in Super.

That's before we even get into story. Dragonball was a story that constantly expanded each arc. Super expanded each arc. The first one we got a new God. The second we learned a little bit more about that God and his power and got more background on Freeza and his empire. The third arc we saw another universe. The 4th we went even deeper into Trunks' timeline and saw another god become a new threat. Now we are seeing older characters in an expanded setting and learning about over 10 universes.

In GT every arc outside of the first was Earth based. Every new addition was in some way a retread. Dr Myuu was a space Dr. Gero. Bebi was a cool villain where they were clever to use an interesting bit of back story from the initial Saiyan arc. Eventually that turned into a Goku vs Vegeta fight. Super 17 was a retread and all the Hell fighters were just cheap nostalgia. The Dragons were a nod back to Elder Kai warning the heroes about the Dragon Balls. Each one represented something from the past. The final fight was the exact same thing as the Boo fight. Goku and Vegeta fuse, get cocky and unfuse, giant spirit bomb that every contributes too, the end.

At least Beerus, Zamasu, Hit, and half the other universe fighters we are learning about are original. Far better than anything with got GT. The arc people complain most about is the Freeza arc, where let's be honest was the only one where you can say they were stalling by adapting the films. Even there they did Freeza better than they did him in GT. I can't even say that arc was worse than the Super 17 arc. Also the payoff of that is we have an awesome Freeza in the Universal Survival arc who is better and more nuanced than any villain in GT.

Here are the biggest things that Super did worse than GT.

1. The animation in GT was far more consistent. That said Super at it's absolute best is leagues above nearly anything in the franchise. In fairness, Super at it's worst can be absolute crap and worse than anything in the franchise.

2. The power scaling in Super is far more suspect. The flipside is two fold. In GT they didn't power scale, but a lot of the characters felt a lot weaker and most of the cast was pretty irrelevant despite that. Whereas in Super the giant power scaling was still used to bring older beloved characters back in relevancy.

I just don't really know where you can look at both in totality and say GT was better than Super.

First, no, enduring about 13 episodes of one 60-90 minutes movie and about 13 episodes of another 60-90 minute movie is not going to be the definitive way to watch it. Watching those 60-90 movies is the definitive way to watch it. And I'm not going to cut Toei slack for remaking those episodes either. It was their choice to make it like that instead of going straight into the U6 arc or something else original. They can't be bothered to explain Jaco and just plops him on us, but we have to endure retellings of two movies, gee, that's smart.

Second, you're giving me semantics while conveniently saying nothing about Super's bull.

Goku being a child is the GT's biggest sin, but Super made Goku a selfish idiot who's never kissed his wife, suddenly is very forgetful of things, and when called a villain in the current arc grows a stupid ass smirk on his face-at least GT Goku stayed the hero we watched since Z.

You complain about GT Gohan, at least he was consistent. Super's version of Gohan Will He Won't He going back and forth, being wishy-washy, I don't want that, and I'm not even a Gohan fan. I can only guess what turmoil Gohan fans went through as they watched their favorite character go back and forth.

You want to talk about side characters? Yeah Goten got the shaft in GT. He also got the shaft in Super. GT's second sin is in fact being Goku Time, but once again at least they were consistent. How the Hell is Master Roshi and Krillin, Tenshinhan 17 and 18 getting these effing gains in power? It makes me want to tear my hair out, the franchise isn't like One Piece where everyone gets a go. Goku and Vegeta takes care of mostly all the fights, how are these tertiaries making headway when some go decades between serious fights, and others the last fight they had were against opponoents that are too weak for them? If straight training could make those gains, things should have went far different for the humans in Z. At least GT accepted the weaker characters aren't helpful and didn't just thrust them into a new saga and buffed them to hell, it's only when they ignored Uub and Vegeta, and did nothing power wise with Pan and Trunks did GT really start to suck.

I do hate Vegeta a lot less after Super, so I will concede Super's doing him justice. Freeza? Yeah, he's better-because they give him worst BS gains than the main cast, so we can see his sadism flow like honey. Super and GT Freeza are the same, the only difference was where he was on the pecking order in relation to Goku (who really shouldn't have been that powerful in GT)

Next you want to talk about Super's worldbuilding. Super's worldbuilding is crap. Everything we learn about Dragonball's worldbuilding as a whole is worst than the last (28 species in the entire universe?!!!, Eff that) Shin is more of a fool than we all thought, Beers is more of a fool than we all thought, The Namekians's Dragon Clan shouldn't exist because they just somehow grabbed pieces of the original giant dragonballs to make their own, how does that work, let alone how Kami got his own pair somehow, there's 11 other universes we know jack all about and we are just getting to them now, in the same arc where they could all be wiped out by the series' God, who's a literal child and wiped out 6 other universes because he got mad. It's all so horribly depressing and awful it would have been better not knowing

Super does have better villains that aren't a retread, I will give you that. But Super does it's retreads too with Freeza being brought back TWICE. Tired of Freeza. I wanted Buu to fight, and if not Buu, Yamcha. Rehashing Freeza yet again does not make a good look for Super.

If you want to believe Super is better than GT, go ahead, but as you can see, I have practically every response at the ready, and a couple others. Because as bad as GT is, Super has more sins to answer for.

[ABED]

I have no problem connecting the characters at the end of Z with the beginning of GT. And wasn't it only 5 years between the two? They were not radically different characters, and I don't think turning Goku into a kid again was GT's biggest sin. People make a bigger deal of it than it really was. His progress wasn't ruined. He's the same character just in a younger body. You bring up Trunks. I can see where you are coming from, but kids mature. Young Trunks acted immature when he was 8 because he was immature. He shouldn't be acting the same in his early 20's. One could argue that he could have a different personality than the Trunks from the Cell arc, but he's still Trunks so the change doesn't bother me at all.

[lancerman]

GT: Time heals all wounds
Super: The marks are still fresh.

But let's say 20 years from now and we took a critical eye to both series' I think you can find more wrong in the first 64 episodes of Super, than the entire series of GT. And that's saying something. Honestly, after everything that's happened, I think I can actually watch GT and not be mad at anything.

Well roughly half of that is a retelling of the films, which if we are being honest, in 20 years are still going to be seen as the cleaner and more definitive ways to watch it.

Also I disagree. The problems GT had were far deeper. Turning Goku into a kid is more of an egregious error, turn off, and reversal of progress than anything that you could ever claim happened in Super so far. That one move right there hurt all of GT for a good chunk of fans. That plus the 10 year time skip. You have to realize that GT characters were so far removed from the real last time we saw them in Z that they were all mostly unrecognizable. There were the 10 years that took place from Boo's death to the tournament with Oob, then ANOTHER 10 years. So you had a much older cast and we barely saw any of them grow to where they were.

That specifically hurt Goku because you had a much older Goku who nothing like Kid Goku from Dragon Ball anymore but he looked kid Goku and not the more mature Goku we were starting to see towards the end of Z, that could feasibly become what he was in GT. He just really wasn't much like any other version of Goku. He felt like how someone who didn't understand the character would write him. That was made even worse by how SSJ4 turned him into a generic "badass" anime hero. So you took the main hero, made him look how he looked at the start of the series, gave him a different personality, then gave him a form with another completely different personality. The other main hero was Pan who was nobody we knew because she was an infant the last time we saw her. Trunks likewise was far too different from Future or kid Trunks. So the three main members of the cast were nothing like how we knew them from before.

This was made worse because now Gohan was way too far into his scholar schtick to ever revert back to anything interesting. Goten was taken out of the fight game and made was unrecognizable because of the time skip. Kuriren, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and 18 were really too old to matter (and in 18's case only really mattered when she randomly popped up in the Super 17 arc). Piccolo got a good death, but did nothing else in the show. So every single one of those characters got a better shake in Super.

Vegeta was the only character you could truthfully say kept his personality and was a relevant fighter for the duration of GT. Even so, it's hard to really say he was used even remotely as effectively as in Super used him. His character actually grew in Super and his maturity showed far more.

Even Freeza in Super was a card board cut out.

You could just tell the extra involvement of Toriyama in Super did far more for the characters. There's no character I can rationally say was better in GT than in Super.

That's before we even get into story. Dragonball was a story that constantly expanded each arc. Super expanded each arc. The first one we got a new God. The second we learned a little bit more about that God and his power and got more background on Freeza and his empire. The third arc we saw another universe. The 4th we went even deeper into Trunks' timeline and saw another god become a new threat. Now we are seeing older characters in an expanded setting and learning about over 10 universes.

In GT every arc outside of the first was Earth based. Every new addition was in some way a retread. Dr Myuu was a space Dr. Gero. Bebi was a cool villain where they were clever to use an interesting bit of back story from the initial Saiyan arc. Eventually that turned into a Goku vs Vegeta fight. Super 17 was a retread and all the Hell fighters were just cheap nostalgia. The Dragons were a nod back to Elder Kai warning the heroes about the Dragon Balls. Each one represented something from the past. The final fight was the exact same thing as the Boo fight. Goku and Vegeta fuse, get cocky and unfuse, giant spirit bomb that every contributes too, the end.

At least Beerus, Zamasu, Hit, and half the other universe fighters we are learning about are original. Far better than anything with got GT. The arc people complain most about is the Freeza arc, where let's be honest was the only one where you can say they were stalling by adapting the films. Even there they did Freeza better than they did him in GT. I can't even say that arc was worse than the Super 17 arc. Also the payoff of that is we have an awesome Freeza in the Universal Survival arc who is better and more nuanced than any villain in GT.

Here are the biggest things that Super did worse than GT.

1. The animation in GT was far more consistent. That said Super at it's absolute best is leagues above nearly anything in the franchise. In fairness, Super at it's worst can be absolute crap and worse than anything in the franchise.

2. The power scaling in Super is far more suspect. The flipside is two fold. In GT they didn't power scale, but a lot of the characters felt a lot weaker and most of the cast was pretty irrelevant despite that. Whereas in Super the giant power scaling was still used to bring older beloved characters back in relevancy.

I just don't really know where you can look at both in totality and say GT was better than Super.

First, no, enduring about 13 episodes of one 60-90 minutes movie and about 13 episodes of another 60-90 minute movie is not going to be the definitive way to watch it. Watching those 60-90 movies is the definitive way to watch it. And I'm not going to cut Toei slack for remaking those episodes either. It was their choice to make it like that instead of going straight into the U6 arc or something else original. They can't be bothered to explain Jaco and just plops him on us, but we have to endure retellings of two movies, gee, that's smart.

Second, you're giving me semantics while conveniently saying nothing about Super's bull.

Goku being a child is the GT's biggest sin, but Super made Goku a selfish idiot who's never kissed his wife, suddenly is very forgetful of things, and when called a villain in the current arc grows a stupid ass smirk on his face-at least GT Goku stayed the hero we watched since Z.

You complain about GT Gohan, at least he was consistent. Super's version of Gohan Will He Won't He going back and forth, being wishy-washy, I don't want that, and I'm not even a Gohan fan. I can only guess what turmoil Gohan fans went through as they watched their favorite character go back and forth.

You want to talk about side characters? Yeah Goten got the shaft in GT. He also got the shaft in Super. GT's second sin is in fact being Goku Time, but once again at least they were consistent. How the Hell is Master Roshi and Krillin, Tenshinhan 17 and 18 getting these effing gains in power? It makes me want to tear my hair out, the franchise isn't like One Piece where everyone gets a go. Goku and Vegeta takes care of mostly all the fights, how are these tertiaries making headway when some go decades between serious fights, and others the last fight they had were against opponoents that are too weak for them? If straight training could make those gains, things should have went far different for the humans in Z. At least GT accepted the weaker characters aren't helpful and didn't just thrust them into a new saga and buffed them to hell, it's only when they ignored Uub and Vegeta, and did nothing power wise with Pan and Trunks did GT really start to suck.

I do hate Vegeta a lot less after Super, so I will concede Super's doing him justice. Freeza? Yeah, he's better-because they give him worst BS gains than the main cast, so we can see his sadism flow like honey. Super and GT Freeza are the same, the only difference was where he was on the pecking order in relation to Goku (who really shouldn't have been that powerful in GT)

Next you want to talk about Super's worldbuilding. Super's worldbuilding is crap. Everything we learn about Dragonball's worldbuilding as a whole is worst than the last (28 species in the entire universe?!!!, Eff that) Shin is more of a fool than we all thought, Beers is more of a fool than we all thought, The Namekians's Dragon Clan shouldn't exist because they just somehow grabbed pieces of the original giant dragonballs to make their own, how does that work, let alone how Kami got his own pair somehow, there's 11 other universes we know jack all about and we are just getting to them now, in the same arc where they could all be wiped out by the series' God, who's a literal child and wiped out 6 other universes because he got mad. It's all so horribly depressing and awful it would have been better not knowing

Super does have better villains that aren't a retread, I will give you that. But Super does it's retreads too with Freeza being brought back TWICE. Tired of Freeza. I wanted Buu to fight, and if not Buu, Yamcha. Rehashing Freeza yet again does not make a good look for Super.

If you want to believe Super is better than GT, go ahead, but as you can see, I have practically every response at the ready, and a couple others. Because as bad as GT is, Super has more sins to answer for.

Yeah I just disagree with most of your responses that you have in hand.

Whether you like it or not, the movies were the originally released high quality version of those arcs. A lot of people, myself included are going to view the view the films as the definitive way to watch those stories and look at the tv version as filler to buy the team time.

All I'll say is Goku in Super is scores closer in character to Goku in GT who is a borderline unrecognizeable generic Mary Sue character who completely changes personalities when he goes SSJ4. The worst thing you really can say about Super Goku is that some of his character flaws are played up with less subtlety than before. Goku in GT was nothing like the character Z. He was just some kid with powers who was interchangeable from about a thousand generic shone name characters. I have to seriously question your reasoning for stating that he's closer to his Z counterpart. He's really not.

Gohan being consistent in GT still meant he was an irrelevant character with no story arc who might as well have not been in the show because of how useless he was. He's the exact same character he was in Z where he was torn between being a scholar and being a warrior and it was a character arc they played up here and made him far more relevant and if quality as a character than GT.

At least Goten is the same old Goten in GT. Which is far from what you can say for the Goten in GT whose character was "he dates girls".

Rossi, Kuriren, Tenshinhan, 17 and 18 are all more relevant than their GT counterparts who were barely in the show. Now you can argue the power scaling in Super made them way too strong. At least it made them relevant. Where as the show that had far less increases in strengths and didn't need them to dramatically improve as much, still failed to utilize them.

Super's world building is still a million times better than any world building in GT which really did almost none. Even if you personally hate it, it did better than GT. It's still a plus for Super.

The only things I got from that were you hate the power scaling in Super and wanted Boo in the tournament in place of the most interesting character of the series right now.

[Kanassa]

Goku in GT who is a borderline unrecognizeable generic Mary Sue character

People keep using that word, I don't think it means what they think it means.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Going by measureable fan reception from different sources, as of this writing:

Dragon Ball GT
Score: 6.70/10
Ranking (based on overall score on the site): #4592
Popularity (based on how many people have the series on their list): #189

Dragon Ball Super
Score: 7.45/10
Ranking: #1761
Popularity: #408

Dragon Ball GT
Score: 6.9/10

Dragon Ball Super
Score: 8.1/10

Dragon Ball GT
Rating: 2.83/10
Average: 6.09/10

Dragon Ball Super
Rating: 4.00/10
Average: 6.19/10

Dragon Ball GT
Average Score: 61%
Mean Score: 61%

Dragon Ball Super
Average Score: 68%
Mean Score: 70%

Dragon ball Super seens to the series has the most positive reception out of the two, thus I would say Dragon Ball GT has done the most damage (thus far, maybe SUPER in the future will do worst but as of right now that title belongs to GT).

[FoolsGil]

Going by measureable fan reception from different sources, as of this writing:

Dragon Ball GT
Score: 6.70/10
Ranking (based on overall score on the site): #4592
Popularity (based on how many people have the series on their list): #189

Dragon Ball Super
Score: 7.45/10
Ranking: #1761
Popularity: #408

Dragon Ball GT
Score: 6.9/10

Dragon Ball Super
Score: 8.1/10

Dragon Ball GT
Rating: 2.83/10
Average: 6.09/10

Dragon Ball Super
Rating: 4.00/10
Average: 6.19/10

Dragon Ball GT
Average Score: 61%
Mean Score: 61%

Dragon Ball Super
Average Score: 68%
Mean Score: 70%

Dragon ball Super seens to the series has the most positive reception out of the two, thus I would say Dragon Ball GT has done the most damage (thus far, maybe SUPER in the future will do worst but as of right now that title belongs to GT).

You're your own person. If you want to believe Super is better you don't need to scour reviews and numbers from other people to prove your point.

Yeah I just disagree with most of your responses that you have in hand.

Whether you like it or not, the movies were the originally released high quality version of those arcs. A lot of people, myself included are going to view the view the films as the definitive way to watch those stories and look at the tv version as filler to buy the team time.

All I'll say is Goku in Super is scores closer in character to Goku in GT who is a borderline unrecognizeable generic Mary Sue character who completely changes personalities when he goes SSJ4. The worst thing you really can say about Super Goku is that some of his character flaws are played up with less subtlety than before. Goku in GT was nothing like the character Z. He was just some kid with powers who was interchangeable from about a thousand generic shone name characters. I have to seriously question your reasoning for stating that he's closer to his Z counterpart. He's really not.

Gohan being consistent in GT still meant he was an irrelevant character with no story arc who might as well have not been in the show because of how useless he was. He's the exact same character he was in Z where he was torn between being a scholar and being a warrior and it was a character arc they played up here and made him far more relevant and if quality as a character than GT.

At least Goten is the same old Goten in GT. Which is far from what you can say for the Goten in GT whose character was "he dates girls".

Rossi, Kuriren, Tenshinhan, 17 and 18 are all more relevant than their GT counterparts who were barely in the show. Now you can argue the power scaling in Super made them way too strong. At least it made them relevant. Where as the show that had far less increases in strengths and didn't need them to dramatically improve as much, still failed to utilize them.

Super's world building is still a million times better than any world building in GT which really did almost none. Even if you personally hate it, it did better than GT. It's still a plus for Super.

The only things I got from that were you hate the power scaling in Super and wanted Boo in the tournament in place of the most interesting character of the series right now.

Well that's your opinion. Not much of one, your only refute is "I disagree" but feel free to say so.

[Kanassa]

Dragon ball Super seens to the series has the most positive reception out of the two, thus I would say Dragon Ball GT has done the most damage (thus far, maybe SUPER in the future will do worst but as of right now that title belongs to GT).

You're your own person. If you want to believe Super is better you don't need to scour reviews and numbers from other people to prove your point.

The topic of discussion is looking into which of the two series could be seen as more damaging to the series, looking for the overall reception from the fanbase and critics alike is legitimate factor to consider.

[LuckyCat]

Dragon ball Super seems to be the series that has the most positive reception out of the two, thus I would say Dragon Ball GT has done the most damage (thus far, maybe SUPER in the future will do worse but as of right now that title belongs to GT).

Are fan's reception of one series really an indicator of overall "series damage", though? It would be interesting if there were records of DBZ's opinion ratings, for example, going down while GT was airing, or going up while Super is airing.

[lancerman]

Dragon ball Super seems to be the series that has the most positive reception out of the two, thus I would say Dragon Ball GT has done the most damage (thus far, maybe SUPER in the future will do worse but as of right now that title belongs to GT).

Are fan's reception of one series really an indicator of overall "series damage", though? It would be interesting if there were records of DBZ's opinion ratings, for example, going down while GT was airing, or going up while Super is airing.

I mean I'd argue the arc that damaged the series the most was the Android arc. But that's insanely in popular in some circles