DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by lancerman » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:34 pm

The start of DBZ has a status quo of:

Goku a martial artist who apparently saved the world several times and was a peculiar person where it is believable that he could be an alien, who once had a tail that was removed and transformed him into a giant ape (something that was of consequence in the Saiyan arc). He trained with a god once. He had a mortal enemy named Piccolo who he apparently fought with before. He has these incredible powers like flying and blasting energy out of his hands.

He has a group of super strong friends that can all do the same and are willing to follow a former path of his and train with god.

They all apparently know about these 7 magic balls that can grant wishes. It's not treated as a big deal though.

Two arcs later we learn that this same Goku once took down and army as a child.

It's really not functional as a standalone. Anybody can start a series midway through and follow along.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by rereboy » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:40 pm

lancerman wrote:Anybody can start a series midway through and follow along.
I don't agree at all. If it's a continuous series and not an episodic series, a very great majority of series would make the viewer/reader feel lost and have an unpleasant sense of missing things.

However, DBZ at its start, works functionally very similarly to many series that start off with a certain background that isn't all detailed but still feel comfortable for the reader/viewer to follow along without an uncomfortable sense of missing things.

That's why DBZ kind of works as a standalone and why it has much success even without the prior series. But, like I said, that doesn't mean that it's meant as a standalone or that it's not better with the prior series.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by lancerman » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:08 pm

rereboy wrote:
lancerman wrote:Anybody can start a series midway through and follow along.
I don't agree at all. If it's a continuous series and not an episodic series, a very great majority of series would make the viewer/reader feel lost and have an unpleasant sense of missing things.

However, DBZ at its start, works functionally very similarly to many series that start off with a certain background that isn't all detailed but still feel comfortable for the reader/viewer to follow along without an uncomfortable sense of missing things.

That's why DBZ kind of works as a standalone and why it has much success even without the prior series. But, like I said, that doesn't mean that it's meant as a standalone or that it's not better with the prior series.
Yeah I still disagree with that. Anybody can start a show like Buffy or Game of Thrones midway through and still keep up and just fill in the blanks. It's not that hard. Before netflix and binge watching it's how most people started a lot of popular series. That's how most soap opera's exist with a much more expansive backstory.

DBZ starts at a point where you already should know that Goku was a very peculiar boy who saved the world multiple times, had a tail, could turn into an ape, was trained by Roshi, Korin, God, had super powerful friends, and had a very recent significant enemy in Piccolo Jr who wanted to kill him. The premise of DBZ starts by revealing the mystery of Goku and his source of strength and why he was different from everyone else in the series. You also already are expected to know that these people know about the Dragon Balls and have no issue gathering them. Later in the story it's a major point that Piccolo dying means the death of Kami and the Dragon Balls (something that was introduced to major importance in the arc right before Z started). Things like Chaozu already dying once are also important to the arc. That's just in the Saiyan arc. Later on there is an arc that is based on a member of the Red Ribbon Army getting revenge and that character having studied them throughout all the tournaments up to the first arc of DBZ.

It's things you can take for granted because we have the ability to just fill in the blanks and ignore things that are significant because we weren't conditioned to realize their significance.

If we go that route, there's multiple times you can say you can stop the series and start from point x and call it a stand alone.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:10 pm

If it's a continuous series and not an episodic series, a very great majority of series would make the viewer/reader feel lost and have an unpleasant sense of missing things.
And with DBZ, I knew I was missing things. I wasn't lost, but that's due to the simplicity of the stories. DB and DBZ are VERY serialized. I think you underestimate peoples' abilities to jump into an ongoing story and keep up. If it wasn't true, then series would have been able to pick up viewers back in the days pre-DVR and streaming.

Hell, wrestling is also very serialized, but it's easy to pickup on the characters and the stories.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:19 pm

I'd never call it a stand-alone series since it's basically a sequel to Dragon Ball.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by rereboy » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:25 pm

ABED wrote: And with DBZ, I knew I was missing things. I wasn't lost, but that's due to the simplicity of the stories.
And like I said, there are plenty of new series that start off with an implied background with some things not detailed. What is important is not some things missing but how the viewers/readers feel as they go along with it because that's what determines if it actually can work as a standalone. DBZ allows the viewer to be comfortable without DB and that's why it worked for so many even without DB.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:30 pm

rereboy wrote:
ABED wrote: And with DBZ, I knew I was missing things. I wasn't lost, but that's due to the simplicity of the stories.
And like I said, there are plenty of new series that start off with an implied background with some things not detailed. What is important is not some things missing but how the viewers/readers feel as they go along with it because that's what determines if it actually can work as a standalone. DBZ allows the viewer to be comfortable without DB and that's why it worked for so many even without DB.
Literally every series starts like that. Characters have backstory going in, but the difference between those series and DBZ is they are all written to explain it to the audience to give them context. DBZ just takes it as a given. It takes it all as a given from the relationships to the history such as who died and it even takes the Dragon Balls as a given.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by emperior » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:11 am

No, it isn't.
You would know nothing at all about Dragon Balls without watching the first serie. Same for Piccolo, Goku's friendship with Krillin and many other things you would know only by watching Dragon Balls.

If you start with Z, Goku's Saiyan heritage reveal doesn't really hold much weight at all.
Also, a moment which is grossly underrated is when Goku realizes he was the one to kill his grandpa.
And by not watching the first serie, Goku's SSJ transformation wouldn't mean as much to you.

In my eyes, what makes DBZ so good is the fact the first serie exists. Though DBZ is a very good show that can still be enjoyed without watching what came before it, but I stand by the thought that DBZ is better enjoyed after watching what came before it.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by Commodore Krevin » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:53 pm

ABED wrote:The difference being that Lucas wrote that as the beginning. It's structured like a beginning because it is, so it introduces the audience to the characters and story. Of course the original trilogy feels complete. For years that's all there was. It was written to be a trilogy. If you were writing DBZ as a stand alone, would you introduce the Dragon Balls the same way Z did?
Not to bog down in irreverent side discussions but ANH was deliberately written as a stand alone, not part of a trilogy, because Lucas didn't know if he'd get the money for the sequel. It establishes the setting and characters, yes, but the story threads are self-contained. Narratively speaking Lucas could have started with TESB and there wouldn't be real issue.

As for DBZ, I think it did a good job introducing Dragon Ball to the West so I'd wouldn't really make changes to it. Anything crucial we need to understand is explained to us as we go along and everything else becomes simple world building references like Lucas peppered his work with. An indication that there is a world, and a history, outside the scope of the story. One tantalizingly interesting but not immediately relevant.
ABED wrote:But you didn't feel what it meant for them to team up or what it meant for Piccolo to give his life to the son of his greatest enemy. Understanding is not experiencing. DBZ does build off of what came before. The relationship between the characters is building off what came before. Then there are things like several of the characters having died once before. Why would any writer not show that?
Well I can't speak in regards to feelings. And short of me hopping back in time there's no way to prove it one way or the other. All I can say is I never felt like I was missing something when I watched "Z" originally, it didn't feel incomplete.

And so little of the backstory is actually brought up in "Z" it really does feel more like world building than that there is chapter of the story I'd missed.
sintzu wrote:This also applies to new Japanese and western fans who were introduced to the franchise through Kai.
Oh, no doubt.

sintzu wrote:Even that's not a great example considaring the only thing the 2 have in common is the name RRA. There are countless stories that itroduce someone from the heroes past without us seeing those events so this is the same thing for Z only or first viewers.
True, I would have to agree and that's pretty much how I took it when I first saw it.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:06 pm

I consider it the same like how I consider Shippuden is one and the same. Its just an update in branding.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by LuckyCat » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:21 pm

Commodore Krevin wrote:
sintzu wrote:This also applies to new Japanese and western fans who were introduced to the franchise through Kai.
Oh, no doubt.
Kai's a different discussion because Kai actually went out of its way to make a prologue to explain Goku/Saiyan history. Kai also cut a good amount of showtime which referred back to earlier material. Remember Lunch pining for Tenshinhan? No? Well neither does DB Kai.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:52 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
Commodore Krevin wrote:
sintzu wrote:This also applies to new Japanese and western fans who were introduced to the franchise through Kai.
Oh, no doubt.
Kai's a different discussion because Kai actually went out of its way to make a prologue to explain Goku/Saiyan history. Kai also cut a good amount of showtime which referred back to earlier material. Remember Lunch pining for Tenshinhan? No? Well neither does DB Kai.
To be fair though, the original broadcast of DBZ in the US cut out the Launch stuff as well.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by LuckyCat » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:59 pm

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:To be fair though, the original broadcast of DBZ in the US cut out the Launch stuff as well.
This supports the position that DBZ isn't stand-alone, though. FUNimation felt they needed to make heavy edits to the original DBZ material to make it acceptable to new fans.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:31 pm

Not to bog down in irreverent side discussions but ANH was deliberately written as a stand alone, not part of a trilogy, because Lucas didn't know if he'd get the money for the sequel. It establishes the setting and characters, yes, but the story threads are self-contained. Narratively speaking Lucas could have started with TESB and there wouldn't be real issue.
He wrote Star Wars to be a standalone, but it was a much bigger script with elements of the later films. It is not a stand alone movie. The story has a beginning, middle, and end, but not a definitive end. The empire is still alive and well and Vader is still out there, so no, he couldn't have started with Empire. Empire takes too much as a given, including the characters and their relationships. Even your attempt to use Star Wars as an example falls flat. And why are you using the first movie as your example? Wouldn't Empire be the better parallel to DBZ?
Anything crucial we need to understand is explained
Explained, not experienced. Quit treating DB like it's the prequel trilogy. It's not simply some extended back story. Piccolo's arc is far less compelling not having experienced what came before. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu's deaths feel flat when we've spent so little time with them.

What is gained by looking at DBZ as its own thing? Why would you not want to see more of the story?
it really does feel more like world building than that there is chapter of the story I'd missed.
It feels like world building to say Chaozu, Kuririn, and Muten Roshi have all died once before? That is not remotely like peppering in history like The Clone Wars.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by lancerman » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:33 pm

Here's the thing though, everything that's added on in Star Wars prequels and sequels are not important to ANH. Everything you need to know to watch the original Star Wars is in that film and you can watch it without having any questions. It's designed that way.

Here are some of the questions this first arc of DBZ presents.

Why does Piccolo hate Goku?
How did Goku lose his tail and ability to transform (you know, the two things that identify him as a Saiyan)?
Why do these people know about the Dragon Balls and why can they locate them so easily?
Why is this guy whose supposed to be God that can go into the afterlife just training these random dudes with super powers we don't know?
Why is Goku considered a big hero?
Why is he riding a yellow cloud?

That's before just going into the easy stuff like who are these characters that all seem to know each other and have a pretty important backstory that developed these powers.

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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:38 am

ABED wrote:Why are you using the first movie as your example ? Wouldn't Empire be the better parallel to DBZ ?

Why would you not want to see more of the story ?

What is gained by looking at DBZ as its own thing ?
Didn't Lucas say he had the whole story planned out but decided to start with 4 cause it was the most likely to gain people's attention or something ? I'm not a star wars fan so I could be wrong.

It doesn't look as serious as Z, it looks a bit older, Goku's a kid in it, it doesn't have as many exlosions. I'm currently rewatching it (just finished king Piccolo) to prepare for Buu Kai so I don't have those issues with it but there's clearly something keeping people from watching it. It's a shame cause it's a really good show weather its watched before or after Z.

It gives people who can't get into DB for whatever reason an easy access to not only the dragon ball franchise but anime as a whole which it has done time and again.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:27 am

The stories differ about how he wrote Star Wars, but he never intended to start with Episode 1. Episode 4 was always the beginning. In fact "Episode 4" was only added to the opening crawl after the film's initial release.

Because serious equals better? Set aside whether the series looks older than Z, I don't see how that detracts from the experience. I love the old school look of cell animation.

If they can't start from the beginning, why start at Z? Why not start earlier like either the Piccolo Daimao arc or even the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai?
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:40 am

ABED wrote:Because serious equals better ?

Set aside whether the series looks older than Z, I don't see how that detracts from the experience.

If they can't start from the beginning, why start at Z ? Why not start earlier like either the Piccolo Daimao arc or even the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai ?
Of course not.

It doesn't nor should it cause unlike other 80's anime, I think DB was one of the best produced and one of if not the only one that can hold up to today's anime. I'm not saying it can surpass something like attack on titan but some old products are so badly produced that they're unwatchable, even if they do have a good story.

Because both are continuing major plot points from before. The Saiyan arc even though it's continuing Goku and Piccolo's rivalry, has more of a "beginning" vibe to it then the 2 you brought up.
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:13 am

Because both are continuing major plot points from before. The Saiyan arc even though it's continuing Goku and Piccolo's rivalry, has more of a "beginning" vibe to it then the 2 you brought up.
So what if it does have more of a beginning vibe? It's not like people can't catch up very easily with a quick recap. Why would someone want to miss out on more of something they like? The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai isn't continuing any bigger plot point than the beginning of Z. And if you agree that serious doesn't equal better, then why bring that up?
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Re: DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:53 am

ABED wrote:If you agree that serious doesn't equal better, then why bring that up ?
Because it's a possible reason. Me not thinking so doesn't mean everyone doesn't as well.

Another reason could be Kai, seeing them skipping the 1st part could give them the idea that it wasn't important. Fans who are invested in the franchise know why they did it but an outsider probably won't.
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