DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

[ABED]

I would argue that there are also plenty of people that don't care about the age of the cartoon. Young kids still love the original Scooby Doo and Loony Toons.

[sintzu]

I would argue that there are also plenty of people that don't care about the age of the cartoon.

It's clearly not enough to get it to where Z is, assuming that's why a lot of people don't bother with it.

[8000 Saiyan]

Because serious equals better ?

Set aside whether the series looks older than Z, I don't see how that detracts from the experience.

If they can't start from the beginning, why start at Z ? Why not start earlier like either the Piccolo Daimao arc or even the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai ?

Of course not.

It doesn't nor should it cause unlike other 80's anime, I think DB was one of the best produced and one of if not the only one that can hold up to today's anime. I'm not saying it can surpass something like attack on titan but some old products are so badly produced that they're unwatchable, even if they do have a good story.

Because both are continuing major plot points from before. The Saiyan arc even though it's continuing Goku and Piccolo's rivalry, has more of a "beginning" vibe to it then the 2 you brought up.

I'd argue Zeta Gundam, Fist of the North Star and Saint Seiya hold up pretty well.

[ABED]

I would argue that there are also plenty of people that don't care about the age of the cartoon.

It's clearly not enough to get it to where Z is, assuming that's why a lot of people don't bother with it.

You have no basis for that statement. That's pure conjecture. We know Z is the more popular show, but what evidence do you have that the age of the two series is a significant factor? You are making an awfully huge assumption.

[sintzu]

What evidence do you have that the age of the two series is a significant factor ?

Nothing, which is why I said I was guessing on why it isn't as popular as Z. It could be its age, its look, Goku being a kid, companies not doing much with it or something completely different I'm not thinking about.

[ABED]

It is not that much older than Z, especially given that it ends a week before DBZ episode 1 began.

We aren't discussing whether DBZ is more popular, but whether it qualifies as a stand alone series.

[Commodore Krevin]

He wrote Star Wars to be a standalone, but it was a much bigger script with elements of the later films. It is not a stand alone movie. The story has a beginning, middle, and end, but not a definitive end. The empire is still alive and well and Vader is still out there, so no, he couldn't have started with Empire. Empire takes too much as a given, including the characters and their relationships. Even your attempt to use Star Wars as an example falls flat.

I'm honestly am not quite sure what you are attempting to argue. You agree that "Star Wars", aka ANH, was written from a stand alone perspective. That it has a beginning, middle and end. Yet you seem to argue that because the setting still exists, that there is still the potential for new stories, this invalidates or somehow alters the previous statement.

As for TESB "takes too much as a given" I fail to see how it takes more than ANH where we had the existence and collapse of the "Old Republic" into an Empire, the rise of an entire rebellion against this Empire, Leia's apparently starting the movie being a spy for this rebellion with at least one dealing with Vader previously ect. By your logic, all these backstory events would have to be demonstrated first hand, experienced, or they wouldn't work.

In comparison TESB assumes from the start that there's an evil empire at war with a noble rebellion. Luke and friends all know one another and had some adventures together which are not largely relevant to the plot beyond simply existing. And that's really it. Honestly outside of explaining Obi-wan as a force-ghost there is nothing beyond the setting and characters that link TESB to ANH. Even Vader's interest in Luke is more an invention of TESB than anything else.

So I do not feel my example falls flat. I think we simply have different standards on what constitutes necessary information.

And why are you using the first movie as your example? Wouldn't Empire be the better parallel to DBZ?

Because I'd argue the relationship between ANH to the latter part of the trilogy is similar to how DB and DBZ relate to each other. As you yourself admit, ANH is written to "be a standalone".

Explained, not experienced. Quit treating DB like it's the prequel trilogy. It's not simply some extended back story. Piccolo's arc is far less compelling not having experienced what came before. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu's deaths feel flat when we've spent so little time with them.

With all due respect, I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. I am trying to look at this through the context that there is no DB, only "Z", and seeing if "Z" works or not. I would argue it does much like I didn't need to see Vader betray Obi-Wan in ROTS to understand or appreciate their fight in ANH.

As for having the death's of Tien, Yamcha and Chaozu "feel flat" that's subjective. They didn't feel flat to me when I watched "Z". I'd spent time watching them train. I knew they were the good guys and yet they were being completely trashed by the Sayians. Seeing them sacrifice their lives and get killed meant something.

What is gained by looking at DBZ as its own thing? Why would you not want to see more of the story?

Because it isn't more of the same story. It is its own, separate story. One with a distinct, separate feel to it. And I made no argument on whether you should watch DB or not. I just think you should look at it as its own thing without the baggage of expecting it to be like "Z".

It feels like world building to say Chaozu, Kuririn, and Muten Roshi have all died once before? That is not remotely like peppering in history like The Clone Wars.

Among other things I mentioned, yes it gives the impression that there is more to the universe's history and people than the start of the story. Which, from our perspective, is when Raditz showed up on Earth. My point being that everything you cited so far is rather less than crucial to the story and is more along the lines of added color.

Perhaps if you explain the reason why with examples you feel the way you do I might understand your position better. But as it is, you seem to argue that DB is crucial to the understanding of "Z" simply because it is with nothing more than a subjective appeal to emotion to validate this position.

Kai's a different discussion because Kai actually went out of its way to make a prologue to explain Goku/Saiyan history. Kai also cut a good amount of showtime which referred back to earlier material. Remember Lunch pining for Tenshinhan? No? Well neither does DB Kai.

That's a pity. I actually liked Launch and wished "Z" had actually remembered her. But I see your point.

Still the fact DB references can be exercised without, presumably, unduly damaging the "Z" narrative isn't terrible for my position. XD

It doesn't look as serious as Z, it looks a bit older, Goku's a kid in it, it doesn't have as many exlosions. I'm currently rewatching it (just finished king Piccolo) to prepare for Buu Kai so I don't have those issues with it but there's clearly something keeping people from watching it. It's a shame cause it's a really good show weather its watched before or after Z.

DB just feels like a different show to be honest. Honestly other than maybe the Buu arc would you really believe the guy who wrote the Pilaf arc did "Z"? Combine that with an, initially, greater emphasis on comedy than fights, a lack of a clear stand out villain until Demon King PIccolo or maybe Mercenary Tao compared to Vegeta/Freeza/Cell and the complete absence of the ever popular sayians and it isn't too surprising. In my opinion, of course.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin

[sintzu]

DB just feels like a different show to be honest. Honestly other than maybe the Buu arc would you really believe the guy who wrote the Pilaf arc did "Z"?

That's because (according to Toriyama himself) he didn't know what he wanted to do with it until after the RRA at least where he decided the best option was to focus on fighting before deciding that the only way to do that was to have Goku grow up.

Again, this has nothing to do with its quality, I think DB is a great show that every DB fan should watch at least once but the differences between the 2 and why they're there is something worth noting.

[ABED]

DB and DBZ aren't separate stories and much of the stuff people associate with Z started in early DB because it is ALL Dragon Ball. This can't be stressed enough. DB isn't anymore separate from Z than the Pilaf arc is from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. It seems like most of your argument boils down to because you can keep up with the story, it’s a standalone.

DB just feels like a different show to be honest. Honestly other than maybe the Buu arc would you really believe the guy who wrote the Pilaf arc did "Z"?

Yes, I would believe the same guy wrote it. Toriyama’s style is very distinctive. And once again people point to the first 13 episodes as if that is all of DB. Toriyama’s work constantly changes over time so this argument falls flat. Why don’t you compare late DB with DBZ? Even DBZ changes. Yes, if you look at early DB and then the end of DBZ, on first glance, it seems very different, but you are going from A to Z if you think about it from your perspective. You are missing B through Y. It didn't go from Pilaf to Raditz overnight. There's a much smaller jump between Piccolo Jr. and and the Saiyans than you assume.

That's because (according to Toriyama himself) he didn't know what he wanted to do with it until after the RRA at least where he decided the best option was to focus on fighting before deciding that the only way to do that was to have Goku grow up.

Or he just changed the stories he wanted to tell. It has nothing to do with Indecisiveness. FYI, the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai did revolve around fighting.

By your logic, all these backstory events would have to be demonstrated first hand, experienced, or they wouldn't work.

Only if you don't understand my point, which clearly you didn't. Every single story has backstory, but stories are designed to introduce people to that backstory so it will hopefully have maximum impact.

As you yourself admit, ANH is written to "be a standalone".

That isn't at all what was meant by I wrote. You are dropping a ton of context. If you started with Empire, you'd be missing a lot of background on the stories and the characters, and you'd be starting mid hero's journey.

[lancerman]

It's not a stand alone series. I don't know why this is going in circles. Based off nearly every argument here, you could break the story in two at the start of any arc besides maybe two and still call it a standalone series.

In the Saiyan arc alone there is way too much information that you have to accept as pure fact without it being fed to you for it to function as its own series. The Saiyan arc has heavy ties into the previous arc, the first arc of the series, and the King Piccolo arc. That arc ties heavily into the next arc. The arc following that ties heavily into the RRA arc.

The only difference between DB and Z is that we find out Goku is a Saiyan. The mystery of that loses most of its impact if you didn't watch Dragon Ball. It just becomes a cool factoid to start the premise of the first arc. Things in Gohan's training and the fight with Vegetables tie directly back to plot points in Dragonball.

[sintzu]

DB and DBZ aren't separate stories and much of the stuff people associate with Z started in early DB because it is ALL Dragon Ball.

Have you played Rocksteady's Batman arkham trilogy ? If not then new players can start from the 2nd game and get everything they need to know. It doesn't mean the 1st game isn't important or not good, just that the story is written in a way that doesn't force you to start from the beginning (why someone wouldn't is up to them).

DB & Z are like you said, all DB but the Saiyan arc is a workable jumping on point for people who don't (for whatever reason) want to watch DB.

[ABED]

Video games aren't the same. The experience is in the gameplay. You can play Halo 2 without having played the first one. It's not as much about the story.

just that the story is written in a way that doesn't force you to start from the beginning (why someone wouldn't is up to them).

Toriyama didn't write the start of the Saiyan arc as a stand alone or a jumping on point. It was simply the beginning of the next arc. Hell, you could start anywhere and because the story is so simple, you could easily get caught up. No story forces you to start from the beginning.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

This thread is stuck on a loop. Dragonball "Z" was not written as a standalone story, so it is not one. It doesn't matter how you enjoy it or understand it or what you choose to watch.

[Commodore Krevin]

DB and DBZ aren't separate stories and much of the stuff people associate with Z started in early DB because it is ALL Dragon Ball. This can't be stressed enough. DB isn't anymore separate from Z than the Pilaf arc is from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. It seems like most of your argument boils down to because you can keep up with the story, it’s a standalone.

More, I would say, if anything in DB actually matters and impacts the story of "Z" than just "keep up with the story". That, if all you knew was "Z", there was little or anything that would make you feel the story was incomplete. That is standalone because you don't have to have seen DB in order to appreciate or enjoy the story.

Yes, I would believe the same guy wrote it. Toriyama’s style is very distinctive. And once again people point to the first 13 episodes as if that is all of DB. Toriyama’s work constantly changes over time so this argument falls flat. Why don’t you compare late DB with DBZ? Even DBZ changes. Yes, if you look at early DB and then the end of DBZ, on first glance, it seems very different, but you are going from A to Z if you think about it from your perspective. You are missing B through Y. It didn't go from Pilaf to Raditz overnight. There's a much smaller jump between Piccolo Jr. and and the Saiyans than you assume.

I never claimed the Pilaf arc was all there was, ABED. I've spoke at some length in this thread about the latter portions and how they relate to "Z" and why I feel they aren't "Z" anymore than the Pilaf arc is. I feel no need to repeat myself.

I simply don't think the earlier arcs are somehow less important or valid than the later arcs.

As to the larger matter, I am open to be proven wrong ABED. But as it is, this is not a debate or a discussion. You've started with the prior that DB is "not optional" and simply repeated that in this thread.

Like I said that's putting the cart before the horse and will bias your conclusions.

My argument is simple. In a world where Toriyama started with "Z" nothing of importance would be missing from the story. That, no doubt in part a nature of writing a weekly serial, Toriyama was only loosely concerned with continuity at the best of times and tended to be forward looking always introducing new characters and situations rather than focus on events or stories which had already happened. That the story threads of DB intersect with "Z" only in the most tangential of ways and are not crucial to understanding what is going on.

You don't have to agree with any of this by the way. That's the fun of things. But I want a stronger argument about why I'm wrong then because you say so. That an unquantifiable "maximum impact" will be lost if I don't see Goku and Piccolo fight the first time.

It's not a stand alone series. I don't know why this is going in circles. Based off nearly every argument here, you could break the story in two at the start of any arc besides maybe two and still call it a standalone series.

While unfortunate, it's unavoidable I'm afraid. Obviously both sides are a bit entrenched but at least we're only polluting a thread dedicated to this very topic. And its better for us to disagree, and say so why openly, then enforce conformity.

And it has been pointed out the various arcs are only loosely connected to each other. That simply is how it is written. But at least "Z" arcs have enough in common they feel like they're part of the same show. If you saw the Buu arc first, the Saiyan arc will feel less alien than virtually any random arc in DB.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin

[lancerman]

DB and DBZ aren't separate stories and much of the stuff people associate with Z started in early DB because it is ALL Dragon Ball. This can't be stressed enough. DB isn't anymore separate from Z than the Pilaf arc is from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. It seems like most of your argument boils down to because you can keep up with the story, it’s a standalone.

More, I would say, if anything in DB actually matters and impacts the story of "Z" than just "keep up with the story". That, if all you knew was "Z", there was little or anything that would make you feel the story was incomplete. That is standalone because you don't have to have seen DB in order to appreciate or enjoy the story.

Yes, I would believe the same guy wrote it. Toriyama’s style is very distinctive. And once again people point to the first 13 episodes as if that is all of DB. Toriyama’s work constantly changes over time so this argument falls flat. Why don’t you compare late DB with DBZ? Even DBZ changes. Yes, if you look at early DB and then the end of DBZ, on first glance, it seems very different, but you are going from A to Z if you think about it from your perspective. You are missing B through Y. It didn't go from Pilaf to Raditz overnight. There's a much smaller jump between Piccolo Jr. and and the Saiyans than you assume.

I never claimed the Pilaf arc was all there was, ABED. I've spoke at some length in this thread about the latter portions and how they relate to "Z" and why I feel they aren't "Z" anymore than the Pilaf arc is. I feel no need to repeat myself.

I simply don't think the earlier arcs are somehow less important or valid than the later arcs.

As to the larger matter, I am open to be proven wrong ABED. But as it is, this is not a debate or a discussion. You've started with the prior that DB is "not optional" and simply repeated that in this thread.

Like I said that's putting the cart before the horse and will bias your conclusions.

My argument is simple. In a world where Toriyama started with "Z" nothing of importance would be missing from the story. That, no doubt in part a nature of writing a weekly serial, Toriyama was only loosely concerned with continuity at the best of times and tended to be forward looking always introducing new characters and situations rather than focus on events or stories which had already happened. That the story threads of DB intersect with "Z" only in the most tangential of ways and are not crucial to understanding what is going on.

You don't have to agree with any of this by the way. That's the fun of things. But I want a stronger argument about why I'm wrong then because you say so. That an unquantifiable "maximum impact" will be lost if I don't see Goku and Piccolo fight the first time.

It's not a stand alone series. I don't know why this is going in circles. Based off nearly every argument here, you could break the story in two at the start of any arc besides maybe two and still call it a standalone series.

While unfortunate, it's unavoidable I'm afraid. Obviously both sides are a bit entrenched but at least we're only polluting a thread dedicated to this very topic. And its better for us to disagree, and say so why openly, then enforce conformity.

And it has been pointed out the various arcs are only loosely connected to each other. That simply is how it is written. But at least "Z" arcs have enough in common they feel like they're part of the same show. If you saw the Buu arc first, the Saiyan arc will feel less alien than virtually any random arc in DB.

-Respectfully, Commodore Krevin

Things you learn in Dragon Ball that you need to know to appreciate the first DBZ story.

-Goku was a strange super strong boy with a tail that was abnormal even in his crazy world.
- Goku could turn into a giant ape when viewing a full moon and he killed his grandfather.
- Goku and his friends discovered and know how to gather the Dragon Balls.
- Piccolo is the reincarnation of one of Goku's mortal enemies and has the sole purpose of killing Goku.
- Piccolo and Kami are two halves of one person and killing one will kill the other and destroy the Dragon Balls in the process
-Kami trained Goku and that training inspired Goku's friends to follow in his footsteps to get strong enough to fight the Saiyans.
-Kuriren,Chaozu, and Master Roshi died in a previous arc dying a giant the Saiyans meant they can't be resurecected by Earth's Dragon Balls.

All these directly inform the Saiyan arc.

Again this is an underesimation of the ability for a viewer to jump in midway through a story and understand it.

It's in no way designed to be a standalone and it isn't a standalone. There's really nothing that radical from the Saiyan arc that deviates the arc before it.

Here's the question you should ask.... if there wasn't a separation would you consider this a separate story arc or just a continued escalation? My guess is no. There wouldn't be an outcry to separate the Saiyan arc from the rest of the series.,

[ABED]

That, if all you knew was "Z", there was little or anything that would make you feel the story was incomplete.

I would and I did feel it was incomplete. We were constanty shown moments and characters and events were referenced from the previous show. For instance, Kuririn's death.

Can you watch DBZ and get a satisfying experience without watching the earlier series? Yes. Is it a stand alone? Objectively no, it's not.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Can you watch DBZ and get a satisfying experience without watching the earlier series? Yes. Is it a stand alone? Objectively no, it's not.

Pretty much all that needs to be said.

The experience of watching just Z cannot be had in full without viewing/reading the story from the beginning and watching the characters literally grow, both as individuals and as friends/rivals/students. The impact/weight of many scenes that happened in Z aren't put in proper perspective unless OG DB has been taken in. This, coming from someone that watched all of Z first before finally "scratching that itch" and going back and watching the original series when I made the time (I was always too busy). Having been acquainted with just Z for years, I had been missing out on a big portion of the DB story. The character of Son Goku (you know, the most recognizable Shounen protagonist of all time?) and his personality traits/actions/reactions in Z are put under full lighting when we're introduced to a little monkey boy carefree living in the remote wilderness, onwards. (I had originally seen the first 13 episodes of FUNi/Ocean DB dubbed back around 1998)

It's too bad that marketing sees it otherwise, which has probably been the big reason for why some may view DBZ as a stand-alone. From the start of DB until the start of Z, everything gradually and organically built over time to become the Z that we're all familiar with. The Z brand is their proven money-maker, while arguably the overall more enjoyable half of the story gets mostly neglected.

And those that have Vegeta (for example) as their favorite DB character may not care much for the history of the Z-senshi, so they may accept a summary of DB as good enough for them. :p

[sintzu]

Those that have Vegeta as their favorite DB character may not care much for the history of the Z-senshi.

Good thing we don't know anyone like that.