DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

[ABED]

The question in the title is a bit misleading because I'm not looking for an answer. I have my view, but I'm interested in discussing it. Some say that Z is kind of standalone series because how different it is to DB. I say otherwise. Not only is it nothing like a standalone, it's also not that different from DB. The revelation of Goku's heritage is a watershed moment, but the series had already made several big shifts prior. This is one of several over the years. What say you all?

[Doctor.]

It's certainly not meant to be one, but I think the fact that so many people started with Z and still managed become friends is a testament to the idea that it can function as a stand-alone series. Most of the arcs are very self-contained. You don't need to know about the relationship these characters have with each-other beyond the fact that they're all friends, I think their personalities are strong enough that you can get immediately attached to them and root for them even if you start with #1 of Z. The reveal that Goku is an alien isn't as impactful and you'd be slightly confused during the Cell arc asking yourself what the hell the Red Ribbon Army is (but beyond being name-dropped, the villains have actually very little to do with the original RRA, so it's not like you need much background information beyond the fact that they were an army that Goku beat; I think Z filler even gives this much context), but it can work as stand-alone.

[ABED]

Sure, the plot is simple to follow. It's not like Person of Interest where the plot gets more complex over time. However, I would still never call DBZ a standalone series.

[Doctor.]

Sure, the plot is simple to follow. It's not like Person of Interest where the plot gets more complex over time. However, I would still never call DBZ a standalone series.

It's definitely not one, it's a sequel and it's adapted from a comic that was never divided to begin with. But it can work as a stand-alone series, intentionally or not. I also don't think it's much different from DB, it's different if you compare it to the first arc, but it's disingenuous to pretend the two Piccolo arcs are anything like the first arc of the series.

[TheZFighter]

I view DB and DBZ as one long, delightful story, personally, but both work as a stand-alone as well.

[sintzu]

It works as one because the story is set 5 years later and isn't continuing any major plot points form before, the writing is very different as it focuses a lot on the secondary characters and action & all the major characters (Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo & Goku's origin) are introduced in it so you get everything you need to know from the start.

There are countless stories that start with events already established and work just fine so Z starting with established relationships and events isn't anything new to storytelling.

If Z can't work alone because we didn't see how everything came together than neither can DB cause we didn't see Goku get adopted, we didn't see how Bulma found out about the DB's, we didn't see master roshi's previous adventures, we didn't see the 20 past tournaments, we didn't see oolong and ouar learn how to shapeshift, we didn't see how Yamcha ended up in the desert, etc.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Buu Arc is a standalone series.

[dbgtFO]

The Buu Arc is a standalone series.

It really should have been DBZ 2, shouldn't it.
But at least they changed the opening for that arc!

[sintzu]

The Buu Arc is a standalone series.

It really should have been DBZ 2, shouldn't it.

We kind of got that with Kai.

I think they might've added 2 or something to it if Z wasn't as popular as it was.

[ABED]

There are countless stories that start with events already established and work just fine so Z starting with established relationships and events isn't anything new to storytelling.

That's literally EVERY story. Every story starts with already established relationships, but no story would start with "you thought you were human, but you are really an alien!" There's no context for that revelation to land emotionally, nor is Piccolo's relationship to Goku. The difference is that stories write that taking into account context. Toriyama doesn't. He takes it for granted that fans have read the preceeding chapters. So while the stories may have been tied up, the characters aren't.

A shift in storytelling structure doesn't equal a stand alone series. The Pilaf arc isn't a standalone series. It's significantly different from what comes after, but it doesn't stand alone. It's the first arc in a serialized story.

THere are plenty of big time skips, but that doesn't mean they are qualified as stand alone arcs. All of the storylines in the Cell arc were wrapped up, but that doesn't make the Buu arc a stand alone series.

Other TV shows also do timeskips after they've wrapped up story arcs. Subsequent seasons aren't stand alones.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball is different from other battle series because there is no overarvhing goal. One arc ends and the entire series could end, especially in Super. I think that's where some of the sentiment comes from.

[sintzu]

No story would start with "you thought you were human, but you are really an alien!" There's no context for that revelation to land emotionally, nor is Piccolo's relationship to Goku.

The difference is that stories write that taking into account context. Toriyama doesn't. He takes it for granted that fans have read the preceeding chapters. So while the stories may have been tied up, the characters aren't.

There are plenty of big time skips, but that doesn't mean they are qualified as stand alone arcs. All of the storylines in the Cell arc were wrapped up, but that doesn't make the Buu arc a stand alone series.

In the first episode/chapter of Naruto we find out Naruto has a demon in him. His teacher says something like that, you thought you were a normal human ? you're a monster! there was no conext for that yet it worked.

Why do viewers have to see Goku's rivalry with Piccolo (which didn't last long at all) to understand it yet they can see other stories that start with rivalries already established ? In Naruto (I know I use it a lot) we find out early on that Kakashi has a rivalry with another teacher, mighty guy but we didn't see how it started and everything they went through but like with Naruto and the demon, it still worked.

Vegeta's story wasn't and you'd have had to see everything that came before to understand it.

[Kamiccolo9]

The 23rd Budokai is a standalone story.

[MajinMan]

No story would start with "you thought you were human, but you are really an alien!" There's no context for that revelation to land emotionally, nor is Piccolo's relationship to Goku.

The difference is that stories write that taking into account context. Toriyama doesn't. He takes it for granted that fans have read the preceeding chapters. So while the stories may have been tied up, the characters aren't.

There are plenty of big time skips, but that doesn't mean they are qualified as stand alone arcs. All of the storylines in the Cell arc were wrapped up, but that doesn't make the Buu arc a stand alone series.

In the first episode/chapter of Naruto we find out Naruto has a demon in him. His teacher says something like that, you thought you were a normal human ? you're a monster! there was no conext for that yet it worked.

Why do viewers have to see Goku's rivalry with Piccolo (which didn't last long at all) to understand it yet they can see other stories that start with rivalries already established ? In Naruto (I know I use it a lot) we find out early on that Kakashi has a rivalry with another teacher, mighty guy but we didn't see how it started and everything they went through but like with Naruto and the demon, it still worked.

Vegeta's story wasn't and you'd have had to see everything that came before to understand it.

You do realize that Naruto began the way it did because that was what the author wanted, right? You weren't supposed to know any of those things as a first time reader/watcher because that's how the story was written from the start. Those pre-existing relationships and backstories worked because the whole point was that they would be explained at a later time, which they were. This Naruto comparison does not work at all.

Dragon Ball is different. Dragon Ball did not start with "Z." Toriyama never intended on people starting with "Z." There was no seperate "Z" manga. He expected people to understand and know all of these characters' backstories and relationships based off the previous arcs. The only reason the anime got a sequel was for marketing purposes. You can argue that Z can be watched on its own, but arguing that nothing suffers because of this is just plain wrong.

[Boo Machine]

In the first episode/chapter of Naruto we find out Naruto has a demon in him. His teacher says something like that, you thought you were a normal human ? you're a monster! there was no conext for that yet it worked.

Why do viewers have to see Goku's rivalry with Piccolo (which didn't last long at all) to understand it yet they can see other stories that start with rivalries already established ? In Naruto (I know I use it a lot) we find out early on that Kakashi has a rivalry with another teacher, mighty guy but we didn't see how it started and everything they went through but like with Naruto and the demon, it still worked.

Vegeta's story wasn't and you'd have had to see everything that came before to understand it.

That's not the same thing. In Naruto those things are expanded on later and revealed as the series goes on. It's part of the mystery and world to discover. In the case of Goku and Piccolos rivalry, it was already on the tail end when Z starts. They say they're enemies and then just stop being enemies, it's not a history that gets fleshed out later because the history already happened back in the 23rd Budokai and Piccolo Diamo arc. Something you would know nothing about if you started with Z.

Same with goku being an alien. As someone that started with Z it took me years before I figured out why that was such a big deal in the story.

[Cipher]

Just jump in at the Cell arc and read summaries for everything before.

[Kunzait_83]

I also don't think it's much different from DB, it's different if you compare it to the first arc, but it's disingenuous to pretend the two Piccolo arcs are anything like the first arc of the series.

Or just as equally disingenuous to pretend that the two Piccolo arcs (and hell, even the Tenshinhan arc before them) are in any way at all dissimilar from the Saiya-jin arc.

[Doctor.]

I also don't think it's much different from DB, it's different if you compare it to the first arc, but it's disingenuous to pretend the two Piccolo arcs are anything like the first arc of the series.

Or just as equally disingenuous to pretend that the two Piccolo arcs (and hell, even the Tenshinhan arc before them) are in any way at all dissimilar from the Saiya-jin arc.

Not sure if you're adding on to my point or you're arguing against it, but yes, I agree. I think the change(s) the series went through has always been a gradual thing, the series doesn't become something completely unrecognizable from one arc to the next (like it is almost unrecognizable if you compare for instance the Cell arc and the Pilaf arc).

As much as Toriyama wrote by the seat of his pants, he made a good job of making the series' evolution feel organic.

[ABED]

Why do viewers have to see Goku's rivalry with Piccolo (which didn't last long at all) to understand it yet they can see other stories that start with rivalries already established?

The purpose of a story isn't informational, it's emotional. What purpose does it serve to say Piccolo was Goku's arch enemy and not show it?

Vegeta's story wasn't and you'd have had to see everything that came before to understand it.

Yet somehow you don't have to have seen everything that came before with Piccolo? As for the Cell arc, it was wrapped up. When Goku died, Vegeta gave up fighting.

I can't speak to Naruto as I haven't seen it.

[Kunzait_83]

Not sure if you're adding on to my point or you're arguing against it, but yes, I agree. I think the change(s) the series went through has always been a gradual thing, the series doesn't become something completely unrecognizable from one arc to the next (like it is almost unrecognizable if you compare for instance the Cell arc and the Pilaf arc).

As much as Toriyama wrote by the seat of his pants, he made a good job of making the series' evolution feel organic.

I was adding to your point, obviously. And yes, agreed 100% on all counts there.

The only thing that you said earlier that I do disagree with is the idea that DBZ can work as a standalone. I don't mean to say that it can't still HOOK people in and create new fans without the previous series. Obviously this isn't in question remotely. But a common theme in fandom since the series broke big in the U.S. on Cartoon Network all those years ago has been people having a heap ton of erroneous misconceptions about what the series actually is and is about.

A bunch of that is because of the dub, yes, but I'd argue that so many fans not only skipping the whole first half and starting in the middle, but even going so far as to never even bother backtracking to experience the first half for themselves even ALL these many years later to this day.... that has and cannot help but have a net negative effect on things, on how people see the series, and how they interact with other fans (some of whom HAVE actually bothered to see the other half). For that reason, among many others, I posit that DBZ is a really, really poor standalone story without DB to lend it much needed context and dramatic weight.

Why it is that so many U.S. fans (primarily) seem to remain so stubbornly disincentivized and disinterested in so much as giving original DB even an inkling of a chance (despite most of its second half comprising of almost literally everything they love about DBZ) is a phenomenon that's worthy of a whole topic unto itself.