Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

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TheRed259
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Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by TheRed259 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:56 pm

If somebody asked you how many episodes does the DragonBall franchise have what would you answer? Would you count DragonBall Z Kai's episodes or not?
As of now, if we count DBZ KAI we are almost at 800 episodes, if we don't then we have more than 600. So what do you think? Should we count Kai or not?

DB: 153 episodes
DBZ: 291 episodes
DBGT: 64 episodes
DBZ KAI: 167 episodes
DB SUPER: In production

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:08 pm

I suppose strictly speaking Kai episodes can be counted separately as the show was released as a different product. But, Kai is just an adaptation of Dragon Ball Z, and they're both products of the same manga chapters. For practical purposes, the casual viewer would only need to consider Z or Kai, as there's no need to see both.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:04 am

It's amazing. I still wouldn't count anything past the last episode of GT. I'm still stuck in that original trilogy mindset. i guess once I watch Super, maybe I'll add Super in there, but I don't really count Kai. That would be the equivalent of counting the dub and the original Funimation edited episodes, in my opinion. Kai is more or less an HD version of what it would be like if Funimation got through the entire series the first time around when they were doing heavy edits and whatnot (obviously I'm not referring to the dub, but video itself). If we don't count the dub and all that, why would we count Kai? Because it's Japanese? Eh. It always rubs me the wrong way when people count Kai on a different plane than DBZ. "Super is a continuation of Kai." Um okay... and Kai is supposed to be an updated Z... what's that mean that Super follows Kai but not Z? I don't get it. I just can't count Kai as its own thing because I don't see it.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:27 pm

Kai is just Z/2, no need to count it.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by cheddarsword » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:29 pm

I don't think "with or without Kai" is the way to look at it. Rather, "with Kai OR Z".

Also, you could count the GT movie. It's as canon to GT as BOG and Rez F are to Z/Kai. It even comes packaged with the GT Complete set.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:38 pm

cheddarsword wrote:I don't think "with or without Kai" is the way to look at it. Rather, "with Kai OR Z".
I think that question would make far less sense unless you're willing to pretend that Z never existed.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by MR.Mark » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:50 pm

Some of us kinda wish it never did with the pacing it has. :lol:

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:15 pm

TheRed259 wrote:If somebody asked you how many episodes does the DragonBall franchise have what would you answer? Would you count DragonBall Z Kai's episodes or not?
I wouldn't count Z's episodes, why make soemone watch something full of filler when a better paced version was made ?

DB: 153 episodes
DBZ KAI: 167 episodes
DBGT: 64 episodes
DB SUPER: 98 so far.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:30 am

sintzu wrote:
TheRed259 wrote:If somebody asked you how many episodes does the DragonBall franchise have what would you answer? Would you count DragonBall Z Kai's episodes or not?
I wouldn't count Z's episodes, why make soemone watch something full of filler when a better paced version was made ?

DB: 153 episodes
DBZ KAI: 167 episodes
DBGT: 64 episodes
DB SUPER: 98 so far.
Because... that's Dragon Ball Z? I don't understand this argument. All of the filler was part of Dragon Ball Z. If you're trying to push for what should and should not be considered to be a "true" part of the story, that's one thing, but to dismiss Z -- which by the way is the series that ensured that the majority of us would be here today -- is just silly. This isn't a matter of how accurate DBZ was to Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball; this is about Dragon Ball Z being a very crucial piece of Dragon Ball history. The Dark Knight has nothing to do with how Bob Kane envisioned Batman, but you wouldn't say, "Why would someone watch it?" would you? I know that superheroes work differently than Dragon Ball, but the point remains that the series itself is a classic and it doesn't matter how much filler it has because in the realm of Dragon Ball Z the anime, that's all part of the package.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by cheddarsword » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:38 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:I don't think "with or without Kai" is the way to look at it. Rather, "with Kai OR Z".
I think that question would make far less sense unless you're willing to pretend that Z never existed.
Some do. If you're going for accuracy (as in, closest to the original manga) then Z can be ignored and replaced with Kai. Some however, prefer Z for many valid reasons. It's a matter of preference.

But considering they both basically cover the same ground, you would have to either accept one or the other out of preference, or both due to liking the presentation of Z and the accuracy of Kai.

That being said, I should have instead said "with Kai and/or Z".

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:07 am

cheddarsword wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:I don't think "with or without Kai" is the way to look at it. Rather, "with Kai OR Z".
I think that question would make far less sense unless you're willing to pretend that Z never existed.
Some do. If you're going for accuracy (as in, closest to the original manga) then Z can be ignored and replaced with Kai. Some however, prefer Z for many valid reasons. It's a matter of preference.

But considering they both basically cover the same ground, you would have to either accept one or the other out of preference, or both due to liking the presentation of Z and the accuracy of Kai.

That being said, I should have instead said "with Kai and/or Z".
I think you're missing the point. We're going for a complete episode count, and Kai is nothing more than an abridged version of Z. For this purpose, if you're going to exclude one, it has to be Kai.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by precita » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:12 am

Kai, especially Japanese Kai, is just DBZ episodes stuck together with glue and duct tape. It's not a new product.

It's like someone trying to sell you a DVD/VCR combo but it only plays VHS tapes and the disc drive doesn't work.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by MR.Mark » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:12 am

Eh I wouldn't go as far as calling Kai an abridged series, that makes it feel like it's missing important plot elements imo. When, compared to the Z anime, it's clearly not missing anything important to the story.

Despite being a re-edit most of Kai feels like it's own product to me.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:42 am

MR.Mark wrote:Eh I wouldn't go as far as calling Kai an abridged series, that makes it feel like it's missing important plot elements imo. When, compared to the Z anime, it's clearly not missing anything important to the story.

Despite being a re-edit most of Kai feels like it's own product to me.
...Okay? not sure what that has to do with the point. Use whatever synonym makes you happy, but in any case, it's still a shorter telling of a pre-existing product. Feelings and personal connotations don't have much to do with it.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by cheddarsword » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:50 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: I think that question would make far less sense unless you're willing to pretend that Z never existed.
Some do. If you're going for accuracy (as in, closest to the original manga) then Z can be ignored and replaced with Kai. Some however, prefer Z for many valid reasons. It's a matter of preference.

But considering they both basically cover the same ground, you would have to either accept one or the other out of preference, or both due to liking the presentation of Z and the accuracy of Kai.

That being said, I should have instead said "with Kai and/or Z".
I think you're missing the point. We're going for a complete episode count, and Kai is nothing more than an abridged version of Z. For this purpose, if you're going to exclude one, it has to be Kai.
From that perspective, then yes, if you're going to cut one, Kai would be the only logical one. Considering that it doesn't "add" anything, i would cut it.

So... none of the movies/specials are being counted then? Because IIRC, History of Trunks is accepted as canon as is Bardock: The Father of Goku (to an extent) and the GT movie is canon to GT. Not to mention BOG and Rez F.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:51 am

cheddarsword wrote:From that perspective, then yes, if you're going to cut one, Kai would be the only logical one. Considering that it doesn't "add" anything, i would cut it.

So... none of the movies/specials are being counted then? Because IIRC, History of Trunks is accepted as canon as is Bardock: The Father of Goku (to an extent) and the GT movie is canon to GT.
I would count the TV Specials as episodes, and have a separate count for movies. That bumps DB and Z up a few notches (Not sure how many there were besides Trunks, Bardock, and the fireman short, so I won't venture an exact guess). Also bumps GT to a total of 65.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by MR.Mark » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:55 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:Eh I wouldn't go as far as calling Kai an abridged series, that makes it feel like it's missing important plot elements imo. When, compared to the Z anime, it's clearly not missing anything important to the story.

Despite being a re-edit most of Kai feels like it's own product to me.
...Okay? not sure what that has to do with the point. Use whatever synonym makes you happy, but in any case, it's still a shorter telling of a pre-existing product. Feelings and personal connotations don't have much to do with it.
That's fine, point being, I'd include Kai, you wouldn't.

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by cheddarsword » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:56 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:From that perspective, then yes, if you're going to cut one, Kai would be the only logical one. Considering that it doesn't "add" anything, i would cut it.

So... none of the movies/specials are being counted then? Because IIRC, History of Trunks is accepted as canon as is Bardock: The Father of Goku (to an extent) and the GT movie is canon to GT.
I would count the TV Specials as episodes, and have a separate count for movies.
Which brings up the question, how do you label "Goku Returns" and "Episode of Bardock"? And would "Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans" and "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans" be counted as two separate movies?

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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:02 am

cheddarsword wrote:Which brings up the question, how do you label "Goku Returns" and "Episode of Bardock"? And would "Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans" and "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans" be counted as two separate movies?
The specials between GT and BoG usually carried the Z label, didn't they? That's be my answer if they do. I'd count the two PtEtS as separate for the same reason I count both BoG and RoF as separate from their retellings. They're proper remakes with their own complete productions.
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Re: Number of episodes: with or without Kai?

Post by cheddarsword » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:10 am

Well this is interesting for sure. I found a couple of Japan only specials for Dragon Ball! They're nothing impressive though. One's about traffic safety (nearly 15 minutes), the other about fire safety (nearly 11 minutes).

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