Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Bruma rabu
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Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Bruma rabu » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:46 am

I think we all know too well how plagued every home release of Dragon Ball has been since it hit the home market. After reading a few threads on this site of people working on their own cuts, it got me thinking. What if Toei along with Funimation(or what ever localizing team in your country) let you create what you consider to be the perfect home release of Dragon Ball? How would you make it? Spare no expense.

While the first question being 100% hypothetical this one will be a little more realistic.With all the home releases at your disposal how would you create your "perfect" frankenstein home release? As in taking video from one release and combining it with audio from another, cutting filler out or combining episodes to make one long one, but it has to use content from an existing product. Hope it makes sense if not maybe my examples will help.

For my Spare no Expense release it would be:
A proper restoration of Dragon Ball to GT video footage along with all the movies(specials too) to 1080p in their appropriate aspect ratios.
Japanese broadcast audio for DB-GT
A complete and accurate redub of DB-GT, movies and specials(including Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!) from Funimation

For my Frankenstein release it would be:
Use the Dragon Box footage of Dragon Ball, color correct it and mux in the Funimation English dub
For the Z portion I'd also use Dragon box footage color correct it but this time mux in the Funi Kai dub(essentially make a Kai cut out of the Dragon Boxes)
Next for GT would be to use Dragon Box footage and mux in Funi dub
As for movies and specials I'd use the Dragon Box footage and mux in the Funi english dub

The changes you make and the cuts you do could be as extreme or minimal as you'd want them to be. Also please if you can go into detail.
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by simtek34 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:21 am

Dragon Ball: Blu-ray remaster similar to Kai or the Level Sets, with Broadcast Audio and the final Next Episode Preview including all the extras in the Dragon Boxes. (Fans Help For Audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpi7FWD6NeU

Dragon Ball Z: Blu-ray remaster similar to Kai or the Level Sets, with Broadcast Audio including all the extras in the Dragon Boxes. (Fans Help for Audio)

Dragon Ball GT: Blu-ray remaster similar to Kai or the Level Sets, with Broadcast Audio including all the extras in the Dragon Boxes. (Toei Still Has the Good GT audio, but it was unused on the Dragon Boxes.)

Dragon Ball/Z Movies: Blu-ray remaster similar to Kai or the Level Sets, with Broadcast Audio including all the extras in the Dragon Boxes. Include options for 4:3 or 16:9. (Toei Still Has the Movie audio masters.)

Other Specials: The 2 PSAs, Bardock and Trunks, Summer Vacation and Year-End, GT Goku Jr. Special, JSAT 2008, Both version of PTET(S)S, Episode of Bardock, and all Video Game Openings

Dragon Ball Kai: Kai and Kai Final Chapters, 16:9 version. (No Japanese Cut)

Dragon Ball Super: Include options for bad animation and Good Animation versions

Video Games: Release almost ALL of them, Like a Dragon Ball 8-Bit Collection, Dragon Ball 16-bit Collection, Dragon Ball 32-Bit Collection, Budokai Collection, Etc...

Other things: Include ALL Creditless Openings and Endings.

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Bruma rabu
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Bruma rabu » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:51 pm

Nice idea to have the option to switch 16:9 and 4:3, didn't even think about that
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Daimakku » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:11 pm

Honestly I'd just mass release the Dragonboxes. They are pretty good remasters and DB/Z are old shows so there is no reason to release them on BD in HD. I think them being on DVD are good enough.

The only difference I'd make is also add the Bruce Falcouner music for the people that like that version. You'd get english dub, american music and Dbox footage! Sweeet. :D

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Daimakku » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:14 pm

simtek34 wrote:Dragon Ball Super: Include options for bad animation and Good Animation versions
Why on earth would anyone ever want the broadcast version (bad animation) on purpose? :wtf: Sometimes the bad animation got to the point where I was about to drop the show for good. Thankfully they fixed most of the problems for the home releases.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Desassina » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:25 pm

Just release the Dragon Box movies already.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Bruma rabu » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:15 pm

Daimakku wrote:Honestly I'd just mass release the Dragonboxes. They are pretty good remasters and DB/Z are old shows so there is no reason to release them on BD in HD. I think them being on DVD are good enough.

The only difference I'd make is also add the Bruce Falcouner music for the people that like that version. You'd get english dub, american music and Dbox footage! Sweeet. :D
While the Dragon boxes are great they aren't perfect. I would argue that there should be a proper hd release. Dragon ball is a very important anime, and for to remain in the state it's in is very depressing. It's a series that should be preserved and handled with care.
On another note have you never seen old school anime on blu ray?
It's not just the fact that it's on blu ray but many other things come into play. For one you get better and accurate colors and cleaner line work. But it doesn't just help with picture quality it also benefits audio too. Blu ray allows for lossless audio tracts like lpcm, DTS-HD, and Dolby TruHD. It's night and day what a good remaster on blu ray can be vs what's on dvd. And I feel that dragon ball deserves it.
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Daimakku » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:09 pm

Desassina wrote:Just release the Dragon Box movies already.
At this point, I doubt it.

The DBZ movie packs were on sale for Prime Day on Amazon today and I caved in and finally got them. I didn't get them for the longest time in hopes for a Dbox Movies release, but I think that boat has long sailed by now.. having all the Dragonboxes and not having the Dbox Movies or TV Specials along with the main series is messing with my OCD.
Bruma rabu wrote:While the Dragon boxes are great they aren't perfect. I would argue that there should be a proper hd release. Dragon ball is a very important anime, and for to remain in the state it's in is very depressing. It's a series that should be preserved and handled with care.
On another note have you never seen old school anime on blu ray?
It's not just the fact that it's on blu ray but many other things come into play. For one you get better and accurate colors and cleaner line work. But it doesn't just help with picture quality it also benefits audio too. Blu ray allows for lossless audio tracts like lpcm, DTS-HD, and Dolby TruHD. It's night and day what a good remaster on blu ray can be vs what's on dvd. And I feel that dragon ball deserves it.
Good points. I don't own many BDs but the ones I do look pretty good.. I'm not much of an audio guy but if you're only listening through the TV speakers or through a 2.1 soundbar, could you even hear the difference in the lossless audio? I'm not sure if I do.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Bruma rabu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:08 am

Daimakku wrote:Good points. I don't own many BDs but the ones I do look pretty good.. I'm not much of an audio guy but if you're only listening through the TV speakers or through a 2.1 soundbar, could you even hear the difference in the lossless audio? I'm not sure if I do.
Hmm... if it's tv speakers probably not a sound bar though you might be able too. With audio it comes down to 2 things the source and your equipment. Depending on the sound bar whether it's top tier one or cheap one, it will make the difference.
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by ShaneisMC » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:47 am

Dragon Box/Level Set level of video on blu ray 1080p with original broadcast audio for DB, Z, GT, and Movies. Pretty simple and straightforward. I'm more or less fine with Kai as it is for my dub watching. If i had to change anything I guess perhaps see what it would be like with either the entirety with the Yamamoto or Kikuchi score properly placed. Fix TFC back to 4:3. That's about it. Oh and I would love an official Dragon Ball Kai as well. I love the fan cut I have. Dude did an amazing job, but it would be great to have an official version 1. Just because it would be nice to have an official cut of the first part of the series and 2. So Funimation could redo its dub of DB so we could see that get improved as well.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Bruma rabu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:32 am

ShaneisMC wrote:Dragon Box/Level Set level of video on blu ray 1080p with original broadcast audio for DB, Z, GT, and Movies. Pretty simple and straightforward. I'm more or less fine with Kai as it is for my dub watching. If i had to change anything I guess perhaps see what it would be like with either the entirety with the Yamamoto or Kikuchi score properly placed. Fix TFC back to 4:3. That's about it. Oh and I would love an official Dragon Ball Kai as well. I love the fan cut I have. Dude did an amazing job, but it would be great to have an official version 1. Just because it would be nice to have an official cut of the first part of the series and 2. So Funimation could redo its dub of DB so we could see that get improved as well.
I really want a dragon ball kai, just so we can finally have it in HD and better dub from funimation
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by sintzu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:42 am

Daimakku wrote:Why on earth would anyone ever want the broadcast version (bad animation) on purpose? :wtf:
I think it was a joke.

I agree that they should just mass release the dragon boxes cause they've done it in Japan so why not every where else ?
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by TenshinFan » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:40 am

Perfect manga release:

Dragon Ball Complete Shonen Jump Edition

* SJ Magazine sized
* uncensored
* Altered/more accurate names, Japanese attacks
* Original colour pages intact

Maybe some bonus features like a couple pages of Daizenshuu.

I still wish there were a manga adaptation of GT

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by tellyzbad1 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:24 pm

Dragon Ball 1-153 4:3 remastered in HD in a similar style to Kai and not level sets. Kai offers a more vibrant and colorful look than the level sets did for Z. Broadcast audio, but only the well-sourced ones.

Dragon Ball Z 1-291 4:3 remastered in HD similar to Kai but without the blur post-process. My biggest quirk with the level sets is the crushed blacks. I don't want that, so Kai is how I'd want it. Broadcast audio, preferably not the Tokai audio that FUNimation apparently now hold.

Dragon Ball GT 1-64 4:3 remastered in HD similar to how Kai was. The current re-runs on BS Fuji etc actually almost look like HD transfers. Their quality is superior to the GT Dragon Box. But I still think it would look better if it undergoes a similar remastering process as Kai. Audio of course the HQ audio thats already in stock.

All the movies and TV Specials I'd want remastered in 4:3 like the Kai 35mm episodes.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:43 pm

For the whole run, aswell as all the TV specials and movies: A 4:3 transfer of the original negatives in HD showing as much of the usable frame as possible, with colours similar to Kai, but the general visual aesthetic being similar to the Levels. Broadcast audio(Or master audio, in GT's case) for the whole run.

But honestly, as long as it's 4:3, affordable, and not screwed up with grain reduction to the extent of either of the Z "Seasons", I'm happy. Naturally, I'd like only minimal grain reduction, but if the remaster was just Boo Kai but in 4:3, that'd be completely fine, really.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by tellyzbad1 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:13 pm

Robo4900 wrote:For the whole run, aswell as all the TV specials and movies: A 4:3 transfer of the original negatives in HD showing as much of the usable frame as possible, with colours similar to Kai, but the general visual aesthetic being similar to the Levels. Broadcast audio(Or master audio, in GT's case) for the whole run.

But honestly, as long as it's 4:3, affordable, and not screwed up with grain reduction to the extent of either of the Z "Seasons", I'm happy. Naturally, I'd like only minimal grain reduction, but if the remaster was just Boo Kai but in 4:3, that'd be completely fine, really.
Degraining can actually be much better than what it is on Boo Kai. The line-art on Boo Kai still has a smudge look to it, though not as bad as FUNimation's work. Superior degraining methods are available, which I would like to see used in DB.

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Satoshi25 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:25 pm

Honestly, all I want is a re-release of the DBZ Dragon Boxes and the Dragon Boxes for the other series+movies.

It's mostly the aspect ratio I'm looking for. Seems inconsistent to me that DB and DBGT were released in 4:3 format but DBZ is 16:9.... but that's not what the "mass audience" is looking for, supposedly.

Plus, I'd love to hear the series in full stereo quality. Did the original Japanese Dragon Boxes have restored audio or was it mono as well?

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:11 pm

tellyzbad1 wrote:Degraining can actually be much better than what it is on Boo Kai. The line-art on Boo Kai still has a smudge look to it, though not as bad as FUNimation's work. Superior degraining methods are available, which I would like to see used in DB.
But what's the point? A lot of people find grain aesthetically pleasing when it's not too heavy. And on the original film negatives, there'd be a hell of a lot less grain than there is on say, the Levels anyway. (Take a look at the Dragon Boxes. There'd be some more pin-prick grain that you can't see in standard-def, but this is basically the level of grain you'd see)
Degraining removes detail, and sure it's probably a good idea to run a small amount of degraining when there's a lot of it, but this is 16mm film we're dealing with; either you'll have grain, or your image will be blurry. A lot of people like film grain in moderation, but no one likes a blurry picture, so the choice is obvious; pull it back if it's too heavy, but side with keeping grain on-screen over blurring the visuals every time.
Satoshi25 wrote:Honestly, all I want is a re-release of the DBZ Dragon Boxes and the Dragon Boxes for the other series+movies.
I agree, to be honest. If Funimation just put out an affordable release using the DBox video masters, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Satoshi25 wrote:It's mostly the aspect ratio I'm looking for. Seems inconsistent to me that DB and DBGT were released in 4:3 format but DBZ is 16:9.... but that's not what the "mass audience" is looking for, supposedly.
Funimation did a survey just before the new Blu-Rays were released about whether people would prefer a 4:3 fullscreen or a 16:9 cropped image, and the results were apparently in favour of 4:3, so in reality, all the mass market wants is an affordable release. That's the only reason FUNi's releases are selling. The funny thing is, if they'd never switched to using film, and just used the digibeta masters for the "Season" DVDs, it would have been even cheaper to produce, which would have probably meant an even more affordable release, which they actually wouldn't have been able to crop in the first place.
Satoshi25 wrote:Plus, I'd love to hear the series in full stereo quality. Did the original Japanese Dragon Boxes have restored audio or was it mono as well?
Unfortunately, the Japanese Dragon Boxes use the mono optical audio for all three TV series, and both DBZ TV specials. Toei do definitely have the original master audio for GT(In stereo starting from episode 5), as do all Japanese TV stations who broadcast it, as that's the audio that went on the D2 tape masters for GT.
In fact, there's a bootlegged Taiwanese DVD release that uses this high-quality audio for GT, although it only contains the left audio channel for the stereo episodes.
The GT TV special and all the movies however, do indeed have their proper, clear audio used on the Dragon Boxes, although the picture for the movies is cropped to widescreen, and the GT special uses a really poor-quality video master.
DB, Z, and both Z TV specials are mono-only, and unfortunately Toei threw out the good-quality masters, but people like Kei17 have high-quality betamax recordings from the original run of those that sound infinitely superior to anything on an official release, so if Toei can reach out to him or someone else like him(Or if they just use the high-quality Z and Z TV specials audio that Chris Sabat already has been sent by people who were sent Kei's audio), we could get a significant upgrade in audio quality.
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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by tellyzbad1 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:59 pm

Robo4900 wrote:either you'll have grain, or your image will be blurry. A lot of people like film grain in moderation, but no one likes a blurry picture, so the choice is obvious; pull it back if it's too heavy, but side with keeping grain on-screen over blurring the visuals every time.
Well you've only gone ahead and labelled it "blurry" and nothing else...no... It will also look clean. "No one likes a blurry picture", but people do like something that is properly clean. Also, about the the level of blur...people can actually live with Kai's blurriness. But, even that blurriness is not what 16mm looks like under grain. They added that extra softener for god knows why.

You also say "will remove detail..." and I'm sure you want to say, "each grain is a fine detail of the original film that must be preserved; we cannot at all distort the original picture with modifications." Some of the original film detail will be removed, of course...but you also get this from getting rid of all the other film artefacts. But please define what details will be removed. Anything significant that will hurt my viewing experience? Or are we talking about the odd 9 pixels of a dark line on a tree branch that I'd screencap to prove my point in a kanzenshuu debate?

Most film experts take no issue in degraining animation. Just look at Disney movies. Their color restorations have met criticism, but they very nicely take away grain. With live action footage, it's a totally different story. DB fans cling onto grain more than it's needed. But I don't blame you since most instances of degraining that you've been exposed to have been traumatizing, below-amateur-tier work by FUNimation and co...

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Re: Your Perfect Dragon Ball Release

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:54 pm

tellyzbad1 wrote:Well you've only gone ahead and labelled it "blurry" and nothing else...no... It will also look clean. "No one likes a blurry picture", but people do like something that is properly clean. Also, about the the level of blur...people can actually live with Kai's blurriness. But, even that blurriness is not what 16mm looks like under grain. They added that extra softener for god knows why.

You also say "will remove detail..." and I'm sure you want to say, "each grain is a fine detail of the original film that must be preserved; we cannot at all distort the original picture with modifications." Some of the original film detail will be removed, of course...but you also get this from getting rid of all the other film artefacts. But please define what details will be removed. Anything significant that will hurt my viewing experience? Or are we talking about the odd 9 pixels of a dark line on a tree branch that I'd screencap to prove my point in a kanzenshuu debate?

Most film experts take no issue in degraining animation. Just look at Disney movies. Their color restorations have met criticism, but they very nicely take away grain. With live action footage, it's a totally different story. DB fans cling onto grain more than it's needed. But I don't blame you since most instances of degraining that you've been exposed to have been traumatizing, below-amateur-tier work by FUNimation and co...
I did say pulling back the grain is often good. My whole point is that it shouldn't be totally removed, and I really don't think it needs to be pulled back very far at all. You are right in general, but I don't think your logic necessarily works on Dragon Ball, unfortunately.

Here's the thing; there's nothing wrong with keeping the grain in, and because of the nature of Dragon Ball's source footage, you can't do what Disney did anyway; Dragon Ball uses cheaper film stock than Disney used in their cartoons(Remember, these are movies. The film stock would have been a lot better than a weekly Japanese TV show animated on the cheap in the '80s and '90s), the physical size of the film is about half of Disney's films(DB is on 16mm, Disney's films are on 35mm, meaning less resolution, and more grain), and Dragon Ball is a TV show running 508 episodes. Disney only needs to remaster their movies one at a time, which run 2 hours and are fully standalone. They can pour a whole load of budget into fine-tuning it all, and getting all the latest technology.

You are right, though -- DB fans do cling onto grain more than should be needed because of how badly degraining has been handled by Funimation and co. The problem is, a future remaster would be handled by those same people, and given their past record, they can't be trusted to do a good cleanup that significantly reduces the grain.
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