Gohan at the Cell Games

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:41 pm

ABED wrote:
Cell hosting the tournament instead of destroying earth straight away showed he didn't take destroying earth seriously, even if the stakes were greater than Frieza. Destroying earth wasn't a goal for Cell but rather something he's doing for amusement. That's why Gohan felt the fight was pointless, because Cell doesn't have a strong desire to destroy earth like Frieza had a strong desire to become immortal.
Destroying the planet may not have been his goal, but killing everyone on it was. It wasn't his main goal but it was A goal. I don't see how Cell fighting for amusement makes the fight any more pointless than if he had been out to destroy everyone. Either way he's trying to kill people and that's a battle worth fighting. Freeza wanted to destroy Earth out of revenge. Before that, he wanted it to sell. It doesn't change anything either way. Both Cell and Freeza are trying to murder everyone, how and why doesn't matter.
No, his goal was to obtain perfection which he achieved, Cell achieved his goal unlike Frieza who didn't. Cell said he'll destroy the planet if he wins which is the same as killing everyone. Gohan felt Cell putting the planet on the line was pointless since Cell already achieved what he wanted. If Cell was serious about killing he would've killed Hercule instead of sparing him, this made Cell seemed like someone Gohan could persuade to stop.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:36 pm

His goal was achieved, but he wants to test it. He wants a challenge. It's the Saiyan DNA that desires a test and he made his intentions very clear to Trunks. He wants to murder people and see the terrified look on their faces as he does it. Mr. Satan was such small fry that it wasn't worth his time when Goku whom he considered the ultimate challenge was right in front of him. Had he defeated the Z Team, he would've killed Mr. Satan. He is a threat. This isn't debatable. He killed people and would kill more. That you are drawing a conclusion from him not killing Mr. Satan is utterly ridiculous. You go from "He didn't kill Mr. Satan" to "that proves Gohan believes he can reason with him". I find that baffling. He killed thousands if not millions. He has ZERO qualms with killing. Perfection was a means to an end. Yes, he desired perfection, but he wanted to assert his dominance. He wasn't going after perfection just to reach that form and then nothing else.
Gohan felt Cell putting the planet on the line was pointless since Cell already achieved what he wanted.
When did Gohan ever think that?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:42 am

ABED wrote:His goal was achieved, but he wants to test it. He wants a challenge. It's the Saiyan DNA that desires a test and he made his intentions very clear to Trunks. He wants to murder people and see the terrified look on their faces as he does it. Mr. Satan was such small fry that it wasn't worth his time when Goku whom he considered the ultimate challenge was right in front of him. Had he defeated the Z Team, he would've killed Mr. Satan. He is a threat. This isn't debatable. He killed people and would kill more. That you are drawing a conclusion from him not killing Mr. Satan is utterly ridiculous. You go from "He didn't kill Mr. Satan" to "that proves Gohan believes he can reason with him". I find that baffling. He killed thousands if not millions. He has ZERO qualms with killing. Perfection was a means to an end. Yes, he desired perfection, but he wanted to assert his dominance. He wasn't going after perfection just to reach that form and then nothing else.
Gohan felt Cell putting the planet on the line was pointless since Cell already achieved what he wanted.
When did Gohan ever think that?
He didn't care about asserting dominance, he only cared about testing his perfect form. He treated killing like something just to do for fun, not something he took seriously. The Cell Games was pointless from Gohan's point of view because Cell already achieved what he wanted, knowing that he doesn't care much about killing people, hence sparing Hercule. He only killed thousands of people to achieve what he wanted, now that he achieved his goal Gohan felt there was no point in him killing any further.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:20 am

He didn't care about asserting dominance, he only cared about testing his perfect form. He treated killing like something just to do for fun, not something he took seriously. The Cell Games was pointless from Gohan's point of view because Cell already achieved what he wanted, knowing that he doesn't care much about killing people, hence sparing Hercule. He only killed thousands of people to achieve what he wanted, now that he achieved his goal Gohan felt there was no point in him killing any further.
Find me a quote where Gohan thinks or says that the battle is pointless because Cell achieved his perfect form.

You are verifiably wrong. He had zero qualm about killing those royal soldiers or the people in the city when he showed the world his power on live TV.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:46 am

ABED wrote:
He didn't care about asserting dominance, he only cared about testing his perfect form. He treated killing like something just to do for fun, not something he took seriously. The Cell Games was pointless from Gohan's point of view because Cell already achieved what he wanted, knowing that he doesn't care much about killing people, hence sparing Hercule. He only killed thousands of people to achieve what he wanted, now that he achieved his goal Gohan felt there was no point in him killing any further.
Find me a quote where Gohan thinks or says that the battle is pointless because Cell achieved his perfect form.

You are verifiably wrong. He had zero qualm about killing those royal soldiers or the people in the city when he showed the world his power on live TV.
I don't think Gohan needs to directly say it's pointless because Cell achieved perfection, the fact that he said it's pointless alone can only mean that he felt it was pointless because Cell already achieved his goals and didn't take killing seriously. Him not saying it's because he achieved his perfect form is a minor complaint that doesn't hurt the overall great storytelling.

Yes he had zero qualm but he still didn't take it seriously, otherwise he would've just destroyed the planet or commence with killing people instead of waiting 10 days without killing anyone apart from the royal soldiers, who provoked Cell.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:49 am

Cell only kills as a means to an end. That's what makes him different than say, Majin Buu.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:30 pm

I don't think Gohan needs to directly say it's pointless because Cell achieved perfection, the fact that he said it's pointless alone can only mean that he felt it was pointless because Cell already achieved his goals and didn't take killing seriously. Him not saying it's because he achieved his perfect form is a minor complaint that doesn't hurt the overall great storytelling.

Yes he had zero qualm but he still didn't take it seriously, otherwise he would've just destroyed the planet or commence with killing people instead of waiting 10 days without killing anyone apart from the royal soldiers, who provoked Cell.
You are imposing your views on the text. That's not the only logical inference from Gohan's dialog. To quote Sherlock, you "twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts"

Did those people in the city provoke him? No.

This was not great storytelling because as I and others point out - Gohan went into the Room of Spirit and Time wanting to help and he comes out with cold feet saying that figthing Cell is pointless. He needs a pep talk from 16 to bring him back to where he was prior to the Room of Spirit and Time.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:09 pm

ABED wrote:This was not great storytelling because as I and others point out - Gohan went into the Room of Spirit and Time wanting to help and he comes out with cold feet saying that figthing Cell is pointless. He needs a pep talk from 16 to bring him back to where he was prior to the Room of Spirit and Time.
And as I and others have pointed out it's good storytelling because it shows how Cell is a different kind of threat than the ones he's encountered previously. This isn't Vegeta on Earth or Freeza on Namek, this is a sophisticated android with a different personality and different agenda. #16's pep talk wasn't "needed", as Cell's method was beginning to anger Gohan. #16 chose to sacrifice himself before Cell killed a different innocent. None of these facts are complicated for a viewer who paid attention.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:25 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ABED wrote:This was not great storytelling because as I and others point out - Gohan went into the Room of Spirit and Time wanting to help and he comes out with cold feet saying that figthing Cell is pointless. He needs a pep talk from 16 to bring him back to where he was prior to the Room of Spirit and Time.
And as I and others have pointed out it's good storytelling because it shows how Cell is a different kind of threat than the ones he's encountered previously. This isn't Vegeta on Earth or Freeza on Namek, this is a sophisticated android with a different personality and different agenda. #16's pep talk wasn't "needed", as Cell's method was beginning to anger Gohan. #16 chose to sacrifice himself before Cell killed a different innocent. None of these facts are complicated for a viewer who paid attention.
How does Cell being different make Gohan's change in characterization good writing? Cell is different in ways, but the threat is still the same. If Gohan loses, it's "Game over, man!" for everyone.

I have paid attention, but clearly some havent if they are ignoring facts and imposing their inferences on the text. 16's pep talk was neccessary. Why would Toriyama write it if that's not what Gohan was struggling with?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:33 pm

ABED wrote:16's pep talk was neccessary. Why would Toriyama write it if that's not what Gohan was struggling with?
In universe, it wasn't necessary, as like I mentioned, Gohan was getting angrier and angrier from Cell's actions alone. Out of universe, from AT's point of view? Well you have one android who loves nature and respects nature and another who hates it and destroys it. The symbolism of #16 sacrificing himself for nature to defeat a threat to nature is poetic. Although perhaps as this thread shows, it's not for everyone.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:55 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ABED wrote:16's pep talk was neccessary. Why would Toriyama write it if that's not what Gohan was struggling with?
In universe, it wasn't necessary, as like I mentioned, Gohan was getting angrier and angrier from Cell's actions alone. Out of universe, from AT's point of view? Well you have one android who loves nature and respects nature and another who hates it and destroys it. The symbolism of #16 sacrificing himself for nature to defeat a threat to nature is poetic. Although perhaps as this thread shows, it's not for everyone.
He was getting angrier, but needed something to pop the bubble.

Cell wasn't destroying nature.

It's not about it not being for everyone, the only thing that this thread shows is that people disagree about what constitutes good writing.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:31 pm

ABED wrote:The mental gymnastics you are going through to say this all makes sense is mind boggling.
There are no mental gymnastics on my end. This is an arc that gets better with more views, imo (including F.Trunks Special). After watching OG DB last Summer and then going through Kai in Japanese for the first time, I found myself enjoying this particular arc way more than I last remember. It had been several years since I had last gone through the story. However, the original Z presentation of this arc is still much better, imo, because I like its filler (same with the Saiyajin arc), Wakamoto gave a legendary performance, and the transformation scene, of course. Anyway, accumulation of the the entire story is key here in this arc. Cell himself is a walking billboard of all major past conflicts, plus main protagonist.

You answered your own question -- it's Goku! Goku is Goku -- he doesn't follow procedure like anyone else. That's where your problems lie, and it's all in-line with his established character. Goku knew things that we the audience and in-universe characters were not privy to (until later reveal). Several times, Goku said things like: "It's ok,it's ok. No worries." after emerging. He witnessed what nobody else did, and it does not need to be explicitly stated at that time. Characters in-universe even expressed concern about Goku's optimism. He threw everyone else off too. It's not forced/artificial drama.

We can infer that Goku knew that Gohan could take on last minute weight ("Since he was small, he's been fighting alongside us the whole time"). Why does that need to be explicitly stated before the fight? Goku had trained Gohan well enough (yes, it's all there in the RoSaT training!), and it's not like Gohan would show up at the event thinking that he'd just sit around and be the last line of emergency defense. It's strange, the idea of Goku being a good dad and all (in his own way). Goku knew that he had the winner, and that's why he exhibited such behavior following his gauging of Cell. Goku just miscalculated, because Gohan didn't have his heart into fighting Cell after scrapping with him for the first time. That wasn't due to a change -- Gohan had experienced growth over time and it had surfaced because the situation (unlike previous conflicts) provided opportunity to do so (Gohan even walks us back through his past experiences as just a "in case you forgot", followed by "But, after training in the RoSaT...").

I think had it been Piccolo and Gohan training, all of your problems would have been solved.

#16 didn't need to remind Gohan, but it did provide final reassurance as it happened. It popped the bubble, but Gohan was about to boil over by that point anyway. I'm glad that #16 was put to use here (and Mr. Satan's role), because that was so unpredictable, and as was mentioned by LuckyCat... poetic.

The writing was a high-mark for me. Goku being actively involved in training his son throughout for the first time allowed the narrative to play out differently than before. I especially like how it and the conclusion plays off of the alternate future/F.Trunks Special.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:42 pm

it's all in-line with his established character.
How?

I know we don't know what Goku does. The problem isn't that Toriyama is keeping the revelation from us, it's that Goku is keeping it from Gohan for the sole reason that Toriyama doesn't the audience to know. It's as though he fears that he's not a good enough writer to not telegraph the big reveal unless even Gohan doesn't know. No we the audience don't need to know what Goku saw, but a more skilled writer will be able to keep the reveal from the audience without having Goku keeping it a secret from Gohan. We see that all the time in TV shows and movies where a skilled writer has characters know things the audience doesn't but are able to surprise the audience with the reveal. There's nothing to gain by Goku not telling Gohan.
Gohan had experienced growth over time and it had surfaced because the situation (unlike previous conflicts) provided opportunity to do so (Gohan even walks us back through his past experiences as just a "in case you forgot", followed by "But, after training in the RoSaT...").
That wasn't growth and it wasn't over time. Gohan was the same character at the beginning of the Cell arc that he was at the end of the Saiyan arc. The Saiyan arc was the one where he grew. He changed in the Cell Games only to end up right back where he was mentally at the beginning of the arc. The only thing that's changed about him is he's now the strongest in the world.
it did provide final reassurance as it happened.
That he already knew. He always knew that it's okay to fight to protect what you value.

Sorry, but that's not good writing. He sacrificed character for a reveal and created a dilemma at the last possible minute only to solve it a few episodes later which only served to take him back psychologically where he was at the beginning of the story.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:28 pm

ABED wrote:
I don't think Gohan needs to directly say it's pointless because Cell achieved perfection, the fact that he said it's pointless alone can only mean that he felt it was pointless because Cell already achieved his goals and didn't take killing seriously. Him not saying it's because he achieved his perfect form is a minor complaint that doesn't hurt the overall great storytelling.

Yes he had zero qualm but he still didn't take it seriously, otherwise he would've just destroyed the planet or commence with killing people instead of waiting 10 days without killing anyone apart from the royal soldiers, who provoked Cell.
You are imposing your views on the text. That's not the only logical inference from Gohan's dialog. To quote Sherlock, you "twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts"

Did those people in the city provoke him? No.

This was not great storytelling because as I and others point out - Gohan went into the Room of Spirit and Time wanting to help and he comes out with cold feet saying that figthing Cell is pointless. He needs a pep talk from 16 to bring him back to where he was prior to the Room of Spirit and Time.
Storylines can be interpreted differently by different people, there's no right or wrong in cases like this.

It doesn't matter if they didn't provoke him, Cell didn't kill them out of a strong desire to do so. It was pointless killing them from Gohan's point of view.

It was great storytelling. Gohan didn't know Cell was hosting the Cell Games during his time in the RoSaT and plus even though Gohan didn't want to fight in the Cell Games he'd still want to train to fight against future threats with a point.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:48 pm

Yes, there are multiple interpretations, but not all are valid.
It was pointless killing them from Gohan's point of view.
Killing is killing. Why would it matter so much to Gohan whether he killed them because he wanted to have fun or because he wanted to assert his dominance like Vegeta?
It was great storytelling. Gohan didn't know Cell was hosting the Cell Games during his time in the RoSaT and plus even though Gohan didn't want to fight in the Cell Games he'd still want to train to fight against future threats with a point.
But not Cell, who is the present threat?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:15 pm

ABED wrote:Yes, there are multiple interpretations, but not all are valid.
It was pointless killing them from Gohan's point of view.
Killing is killing. Why would it matter so much to Gohan whether he killed them because he wanted to have fun or because he wanted to assert his dominance like Vegeta?
It was great storytelling. Gohan didn't know Cell was hosting the Cell Games during his time in the RoSaT and plus even though Gohan didn't want to fight in the Cell Games he'd still want to train to fight against future threats with a point.
But not Cell, who is the present threat?
Because Cell was killing for no real reason, whereas Vegeta had his reasons (Wanted to sell planet for money and achieve immortality via Dragon Balls).

Yes. He'd still train for self defence against someone like Cell who he doesn't want to fight against.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:37 pm

Vegeta's reasons for killing were no better and regardless, killing is still killing. In terms of sheer numbers, Cell killed more in the Cell arc than Vegeta did in the Saiyan arc. Both needed to be stopped. Cell wanted to achieve the ultimate power and strike fear in people's hearts before he killed them. You even tried to claim that him not killing Mr. Satan proves he isn't a cold blooded killer and twist the narrative to somehow make it like the massacre of the royal army was justified. Neither were a threat to Cell but he killed those soldiers anyway. Cell is as cold blooded and in need of stopping as any previous villain. He attained ultimate power and he wasn't just going to stop there. If you actually think that, you don't understand Cell. That's proven in the series, unlike your assertions about what Gohan is thinking.

You think Gohan wanted to fight Vegeta or Freeza? No, but he had to, just like he has to fight Cell.

We're going around in circles. I find your analyses to be completely off the mark, not just of Gohan but every other character.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:51 pm

ABED wrote:Vegeta's reasons for killing were no better and regardless, killing is still killing. In terms of sheer numbers, Cell killed more in the Cell arc than Vegeta did in the Saiyan arc. Both needed to be stopped. Cell wanted to achieve the ultimate power and strike fear in people's hearts before he killed them. You even tried to claim that him not killing Mr. Satan proves he isn't a cold blooded killer and twist the narrative to somehow make it like the massacre of the royal army was justified. Neither were a threat to Cell but he killed those soldiers anyway. Cell is as cold blooded and in need of stopping as any previous villain. He attained ultimate power and he wasn't just going to stop there. If you actually think that, you don't understand Cell. That's proven in the series, unlike your assertions about what Gohan is thinking.

You think Gohan wanted to fight Vegeta or Freeza? No, but he had to, just like he has to fight Cell.

We're going around in circles. I find your analyses to be completely off the mark, not just of Gohan but every other character.
How are Vegeta's reasons no better? He did it for money and eternal life, those are actual goals unlike Cell who did it for no real reason. Him not striking fear and killing Hercule showed he wasn't serious about his desire to kill and strike fear in people, which added to Gohan feeling the Cell Games was pointless. It doesn't matter if Cell killed more people than Vegeta, although if you think about it Vegeta killed more people overall than Cell has since he wipes out planets.

And alright, to each his own. Although I'm positive my analyses are on point.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by rereboy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:53 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote:
How are Vegeta's reasons no better? He did it for money and eternal life, those are actual goals unlike Cell who did it for no real reason. Him not striking fear and killing Hercule showed he wasn't serious about his desire to kill and strike fear in people, which added to Gohan feeling the Cell Games was pointless. It doesn't matter if Cell killed more people than Vegeta, although if you think about it Vegeta killed more people overall than Cell has since he wipes out planets.

And alright, to each his own. Although I'm positive my analyses are on point.
Cell spared Mr. Satan because, as he specifically stated in his TV anouncement of the tournament, although no one would automatically lose for killing the opponent, he would "try to go easy". In other words, when he knocked Mr. Satan out of the arena, Cell was still trying to follow what he had announced regarding the tournament, which included trying not to kill his opponent. It was only after fighting Goku that Cell decided to disregard the tournament completely and destroyed the arena.

As for Cell's goals and personality, after Cell becomes perfect, his goal is to rub in everyone's faces how helpless and hopeless everyone is when faced with him before killing them all. He gets satisfaction from their despair, from seeing everyone's realization that he can't be stopped, that he is too "superior" to them and that they will all die when he finally decides to deal the final blow.

That's why he decides to hold a very public worldwide tournament for the fate of the planet. He's announcing to everyone: "I'm perfect, the ultimate warrior, I can do whatever I want to you and your planet, including giving you a chance to stop me, and you will still be unable to stop me. At best, you might offer me amusement, and you will still die at the end. Your skirmish and despair is delicious".

Saying that perfect Cell has no goals at all is misunderstanding what perfect Cell is about. He's a narcissistic sadist and the satisfaction he gets from people's pain and despair as he proves how great he is is his goal.



Regarding Gohan, I've already written plenty on the subject and it's clear for me that he acts out of character just for the sake of artificial tension.... Still, here's a summary:

At the very least, Gohan should have fought non-stop, without hesitating, against Cell and the Cell jrs once they started hurting his friends and family, instead of just making a feeble attempt of a punch or a kick against Cell and immediately giving up and just watching afterwards. And that's just the very least.
Here's why:
- Before the Cell games, Gohan understood perfectly the necessity of fighting. That's why he YELLED at Chichi so that he could go to Namek. Nobody told him to go, and yet, at 5 or 6 years old, he understood perfectly that he might be needed to bring his friends back. He understood that it might be necessary to fight and he volunteered to do it for the sake of his friends.
- Before the Cell games, on numerous occasions, despite the enemy being WAAAYYY stronger than Gohan, he always attacked the enemy when his friends or family were in danger. That is how he saved Piccolo from dying at the hands of third form Freeza. If he hadn't completely disregarded how much stronger Freeza was, and pulled a rage boost because of it, Piccolo would just be dead.
- Before the Cell games, Gohan allowed his fear to make him hesitate once, in the saiyan arc. And, as we saw, in the same arc, he overcame it.

What Gohan does in the Cell games is the contrary to everything that was established before in the series regarding his character and his growth (exemplified by what I mentioned). Gohan hesitates, not only due to self-doubt, but also while he sees his family and friends in danger, and Gohan also apparently ceases to understand the necessity of fighting. And this happens only to create a sense of artificial tension in the fight.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:23 pm

Rereboy and I don't often agree, but I'm in 100% agreement with him on this issue.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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