Gohan at the Cell Games

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:29 pm

rereboy wrote:
TheUltimateVegito wrote:
How are Vegeta's reasons no better? He did it for money and eternal life, those are actual goals unlike Cell who did it for no real reason. Him not striking fear and killing Hercule showed he wasn't serious about his desire to kill and strike fear in people, which added to Gohan feeling the Cell Games was pointless. It doesn't matter if Cell killed more people than Vegeta, although if you think about it Vegeta killed more people overall than Cell has since he wipes out planets.

And alright, to each his own. Although I'm positive my analyses are on point.
Cell spared Mr. Satan because, as he specifically stated in his TV anouncement of the tournament, although no one would automatically lose for killing the opponent, he would "try to go easy". In other words, when he knocked Mr. Satan out of the arena, Cell was still trying to follow what he had announced regarding the tournament, which included trying not to kill his opponent. It was only after fighting Goku that Cell decided to disregard the tournament completely and destroyed the arena.

As for Cell's goals and personality, after Cell becomes perfect, his goal is to rub in everyone's faces how helpless and hopeless everyone is when faced with him before killing them all. He gets satisfaction from their despair, from seeing everyone's realization that he can't be stopped, that he is too "superior" to them and that they will all die when he finally decides to deal the final blow.

That's why he decides to hold a very public worldwide tournament for the fate of the planet. He's announcing to everyone: "I'm perfect, the ultimate warrior, I can do whatever I want to you and your planet, including giving you a chance to stop me, and you will still be unable to stop me. At best, you might offer me amusement, and you will still die at the end. Your skirmish and despair is delicious".

Saying that perfect Cell has no goals at all is misunderstanding what perfect Cell is about. He's a narcissistic sadist and the satisfaction he gets from people's pain and despair as he proves how great he is is his goal.



Regarding Gohan, I've already written plenty on the subject and it's clear for me that he acts out of character just for the sake of artificial tension.... Still, here's a summary:

At the very least, Gohan should have fought non-stop, without hesitating, against Cell and the Cell jrs once they started hurting his friends and family, instead of just making a feeble attempt of a punch or a kick against Cell and immediately giving up and just watching afterwards. And that's just the very least.
Here's why:
- Before the Cell games, Gohan understood perfectly the necessity of fighting. That's why he YELLED at Chichi so that he could go to Namek. Nobody told him to go, and yet, at 5 or 6 years old, he understood perfectly that he might be needed to bring his friends back. He understood that it might be necessary to fight and he volunteered to do it for the sake of his friends.
- Before the Cell games, on numerous occasions, despite the enemy being WAAAYYY stronger than Gohan, he always attacked the enemy when his friends or family were in danger. That is how he saved Piccolo from dying at the hands of third form Freeza. If he hadn't completely disregarded how much stronger Freeza was, and pulled a rage boost because of it, Piccolo would just be dead.
- Before the Cell games, Gohan allowed his fear to make him hesitate once, in the saiyan arc. And, as we saw, in the same arc, he overcame it.

What Gohan does in the Cell games is the contrary to everything that was established before in the series regarding his character and his growth (exemplified by what I mentioned). Gohan hesitates, not only due to self-doubt, but also while he sees his family and friends in danger, and Gohan also apparently ceases to understand the necessity of fighting. And this happens only to create a sense of artificial tension in the fight.
If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have try to go easy.

Bringing back his friends was a greater cause that was not present in the Cell Games. Everyone was alive during the Cell Games.

Gohan's attempt wasn't feeble, there was nothing that suggested he didn't went all out in that attempt. Cell stopping him made Gohan realise that the only way he can get past Cell is by getting fully mad. Thrid Form Frieza was different because his attempt actually worked. Gohan not attacking Cell constantly showed how more mature Gohan has gotten by learning from past experience. When he tried constantly attacking Recoome all he did was waste energy and nearly got himself killed, the same would've happened with Cell if he attacked constantly.

Gohan's actions in the Cell Games further expanded his character. Gohan said it himself that he wants to fight Cell and the Cell Jrs while they were attacking the Z-Fighters but knew he had to unleash his hidden powers before he can do that, so it's completely in character for Gohan.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:35 pm

If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have included a no killing rule in the tournament.
There wasn't one. You are confusing it with the Tenkaichi Budokai. He explicitly says that if someone dies, they lose. This statement throws much of your analysis into question. It makes me think you don't remember the story as well as you believe. And why are you putting goal in quotes?
Thrid Form Frieza was different because his attempt actually worked. Gohan not attacking Cell constantly showed how more mature Gohan has gotten by learning from past experience. When he tried constantly attacking Recoome all he did was waste energy and nearly got himself killed, the same would've happened with Cell if he attacked constantly.
All different scenarios. Against Freeza and Reacoom, he was vastly overmatched. At best, he held back Freeza for a few seconds and Reacoom was far more powerful than Gohan was. Against Cell, Gohan was superior to Cell in every way by a huge margin.
Bringing back his friends was a greater cause that was not present in the Cell Games. Everyone was alive during the Cell Games.
But they most certainly would be killed if Gohan lost.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:47 pm

ABED wrote:
If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have included a no killing rule in the tournament.
There wasn't one. You are confusing it with the Tenkaichi Budokai. He explicitly says that if someone dies, they lose. This statement throws much of your analysis into question. It makes me think you don't remember the story as well as you believe. And why are you putting goal in quotes?
Thrid Form Frieza was different because his attempt actually worked. Gohan not attacking Cell constantly showed how more mature Gohan has gotten by learning from past experience. When he tried constantly attacking Recoome all he did was waste energy and nearly got himself killed, the same would've happened with Cell if he attacked constantly.
All different scenarios. Against Freeza and Reacoom, he was vastly overmatched. At best, he held back Freeza for a few seconds and Reacoom was far more powerful than Gohan was. Against Cell, Gohan was superior to Cell in every way by a huge margin.
Bringing back his friends was a greater cause that was not present in the Cell Games. Everyone was alive during the Cell Games.
But they most certainly would be killed if Gohan lost.
My bad, I changed it to "If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have try to go easy."

They're pretty much the same scenarios. Gohan was only superior to Cell in his SSJ2 form. As a SSJ1 it was Cell who was superior by a wide margin.

Gohan believed he could get Cell to stop the Cell Games and not kill the Z-Fighters.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:51 pm

My bad, I changed it to "If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have try to go easy."
He wanted to test the limits of his strength. He's not going easy on the Z Team. He physically hurts people, kills them, threatens them, and toys with them. How does that not further his goal of striking fear in people? Cell allows the TV reporter to film him. He wants people to see what he is doing.
They're pretty much the same scenarios. Gohan was only superior to Cell in his SSJ2 form. As a SSJ1 it was Cell who was superior by a wide margin.
It's arguable how wide that margin is between SS1 Gohan and Cell. The fight doesn't get that intense before he starts attacking Gohan's friends to draw out his power. Even then, Gohan isn't that injured. I'm not sure what your point is.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:04 pm

ABED wrote:
My bad, I changed it to "If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have try to go easy."
He wanted to test the limits of his strength. He's not going easy on the Z Team. He physically hurts people, kills them, threatens them, and toys with them. How does that not further his goal of striking fear in people? Cell allows the TV reporter to film him. He wants people to see what he is doing.
They're pretty much the same scenarios. Gohan was only superior to Cell in his SSJ2 form. As a SSJ1 it was Cell who was superior by a wide margin.
It's arguable how wide that margin is between SS1 Gohan and Cell. The fight doesn't get that intense before he starts attacking Gohan's friends to draw out his power. Even then, Gohan isn't that injured. I'm not sure what your point is.
The same Cell who was holding back against Goku. Could you give an example of how he hurts people, threatens them and toys with them to the point that his desire to strike fear and kill people is furthered when he's the same guy who was going easy on his opponents in the Cell Games? And before you say with the Cell Jrs, he was only doing that because he wanted to unleash Gohan's power.

True Gohan wasn't that injured, but he would've been if he continued to attack Cell. That was the point, to avoid getting that injured.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:54 pm

The same Cell who was holding back against Goku. Could you give an example of how he hurts people, threatens them and toys with them to the point that his desire to strike fear and kill people is furthered when he's the same guy who was going easy on his opponents in the Cell Games? And before you say with the Cell Jrs, he was only doing that because he wanted to unleash Gohan's power.

True Gohan wasn't that injured, but he would've been if he continued to attack Cell. That was the point, to avoid getting that injured.
He killed all of those royal soldiers! He killed thousands of people in that city when he told the world about the Cell Games. How was he going easy on them in the Cell Games? He's physically hurting Gohan and psychologically torturing Gohan. There's no "only doing that". He sent them after the Z Team and instead of killing them, he had the Cell Jr's beat the crap out of them and toy with them just so he could get a better fight out of Gohan. And holding back against Goku is him toying with Goku.

Cell has two primary goals with the Cell Games:
1 - To test his powers
2 - To instill fear in people

I'm baffled. What do you think Cell's endgame is? He achieved ultimate power. Do you think he has no further goal? Do you think he was BS'ing about wanting to see people terrified? If so, why tell that to Trunks? Why do that if he wasn't serious about it?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:08 pm

ABED wrote:
The same Cell who was holding back against Goku. Could you give an example of how he hurts people, threatens them and toys with them to the point that his desire to strike fear and kill people is furthered when he's the same guy who was going easy on his opponents in the Cell Games? And before you say with the Cell Jrs, he was only doing that because he wanted to unleash Gohan's power.

True Gohan wasn't that injured, but he would've been if he continued to attack Cell. That was the point, to avoid getting that injured.
He killed all of those royal soldiers! He killed thousands of people in that city when he told the world about the Cell Games. How was he going easy on them in the Cell Games? He's physically hurting Gohan and psychologically torturing Gohan. There's no "only doing that". He sent them after the Z Team and instead of killing them, he had the Cell Jr's beat the crap out of them and toy with them just so he could get a better fight out of Gohan. And holding back against Goku is him toying with Goku.

I'm baffled. What do you think Cell's endgame is? He achieved ultimate power. Do you think he has no further goal? Do you think he was BS'ing about wanting to see people terrified? If so, why tell that to Trunks? Why do that if he wasn't serious about it?
Sure he killed those people but like I said multiple times he's not seriously devoted to killing people from Gohan's point of view.

When the Cell Jrs were attacking the Z-Fighters, at that point Gohan wanted to fight Cell so it doesn't count.

I'm not saying he doesn't want to see people terrified I'm just saying he doesn't take it seriously like say Vegeta took making money and achieving immortality seriously from Gohan's point of view.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:14 pm

What constitutes taking it seriously? And how does that make him any less dangerous or in need of being killed?

You say you are talking about Gohan's point of view but what you are actually talking about is your POV. That's not his point of view. Limit his POV to the text. And Vegeta was never really after money. He wanted power. He's a powerluster.

Of course it still counts with the Cell Jr's. Cell wasn't doing anything different than he did before. It was just his latest example of trying to hurt and terrify people.

And yet again you ignore the example of Cell destroying the people in that city during his Cell Games announcement.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:48 pm

ABED wrote:What constitutes taking it seriously? And how does that make him any less dangerous or in need of being killed?

You say you are talking about Gohan's point of view but what you are actually talking about is your POV. That's not his point of view. Limit his POV to the text. And Vegeta was never really after money. He wanted power. He's a powerluster.

Of course it still counts with the Cell Jr's. Cell wasn't doing anything different than he did before. It was just his latest example of trying to hurt and terrify people.

And yet again you ignore the example of Cell destroying the people in that city during his Cell Games announcement.
Going straight to killing people instead of treating it like a game constitutes taking it seriously.

It's Gohan's point of view because these are factors that'll make him think it's pointless which he stated he did.

Raditz practically said to Gohan and the rest that Saiyans are in it for the money, that includes Vegeta.

Cell didn't torture anyone like he had the Cell Jrs do to the Z-Fighters beforehand.

I'm not ignoring it, to quote what I said in response to that
Sure he killed those people but like I said multiple times he's not seriously devoted to killing people from Gohan's point of view.
Gohan felt that Cell kills for no real reason and thus felt that him putting the planet at stake was pointless.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by rereboy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:57 am

TheUltimateVegito wrote:
If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have try to go easy.
Proving that he can, with his superior power, crush people's hopes of not dying while taking it easy and only afterwards, eventually, after they have really tasted the despair, kill them, is more satisfying for Cell than just immediately murdering people. That's why he stated he would be taking it easy in the tournament and, consequently, why he didn't kill Mr Satan since he was trying to follow that.
TheUltimateVegito wrote:
Bringing back his friends was a greater cause that was not present in the Cell Games. Everyone was alive during the Cell Games.
Bringing back his friends from death and preventing his friends from dying has exactly the same value. Both are meant to ensure that his friends are alive and well. The distinction you are trying to make doesn't make sense.
Gohan's attempt wasn't feeble, there was nothing that suggested he didn't went all out in that attempt.
When Cell says he is going to hurt his friends, Gohan jumps at Cell and Cell kicks him away with a simple kick. After that, Cell creates his Cell Jrs which then start to seriously hurt all his friends and family and Gohan just watches. He makes no further attempts to move, attack or protect. He witnesses his friends having his limps broken, starting to slip into mortal danger and he still makes no further attempts.

Gohan was basically as strong as Goku even without his SSJ2. Merely jumping at Cell and giving up after a simple kick that stops his jump is the very definition of one of the most feeble things he could have done.
Cell stopping him made Gohan realise that the only way he can get past Cell is by getting fully mad.
Gohan never cared about that before. Even when it didn't work, he just continued to try his hardest.
Thrid Form Frieza was different because his attempt actually worked.
It was different because Gohan didn't care AT ALL how strong Freeza was and, therefore, didn't hesitate AT ALL. All he cared about was Piccolo and THAT'S what made it work.

In the Cell games, all that Gohan does is hesitate and have self doubts so, OBVIOUSLY, his feeble attempt at jumping out at Cell was easily repelled. If he had acted like his previous self, he wouldn't hesitate, his attacks wouldn't be feeble, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, he wouldn't give up just because he got kicked just like he didn't give up against Reccome.
Gohan not attacking Cell constantly showed how more mature Gohan has gotten by learning from past experience. When he tried constantly attacking Recoome all he did was waste energy and nearly got himself killed, the same would've happened with Cell if he attacked constantly.
If Gohan had just stared at Reccome after being kicked once, instead of actually seriously fighting him, Reccome would just kill them all faster and Goku wouldn't have been on time to save them.

Tell me, what is more mature? Never giving up, try one's hardest, even against impossible odds, for the sake of others and for the sake of one's self, especially when trying with all of one's might is absolutely necessary, or just hesitate, have self-doubts and therefore just freeze after a feeble attempt?
Gohan's actions in the Cell Games further expanded his character. Gohan said it himself that he wants to fight Cell and the Cell Jrs while they were attacking the Z-Fighters but knew he had to unleash his hidden powers before he can do that, so it's completely in character for Gohan.
It's not a matter of he wants to do. It's a matter of Gohan being presented as someone who was grown into a fighter that doesn't hesitate and never gives up when people he cares about are in danger, and then, suddenly, in the Cell games, Gohan being presented as someone that all he does is hesitate and have self-doubts even when the people he cares about are in danger.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:05 am

Going straight to killing people instead of treating it like a game constitutes taking it seriously.

It's Gohan's point of view because these are factors that'll make him think it's pointless which he stated he did.

Raditz practically said to Gohan and the rest that Saiyans are in it for the money, that includes Vegeta.
Then Freeza isn't serious because he could've easily killed everyone any number of times but didn't. He toyed with them. Vegeta didn't go straight to killing people. He drew it out using the Saibaimen and Nappa. It's only when anyone posed a genuine threat that he tried to go straight for the kill. He called a 3 hour time out to allow Goku the time to arrive so Nappa and he could get a better fight.

It's not Gohan's point of view. All he said was that he found it pointless. YOU inferred the rest from that one statement.

"Practically" meaning he didn't actually say it and again you inferred. If Vegeta was actually in it for the money he wouldn't have stayed on Earth. He wants physical power. And Vegeta doesn't give a crap about Raditz.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:40 am

rereboy wrote:When Cell says he is going to hurt his friends, Gohan jumps at Cell and Cell kicks him away with a simple kick. After that, Cell creates his Cell Jrs which then start to seriously hurt all his friends and family and Gohan just watches. He makes no further attempts to move, attack or protect. He witnesses his friends having his limps broken, starting to slip into mortal danger and he still makes no further attempts.
The thing is, Gohan's rage boost to help his friends has never been consistent, and even when it triggers it's not always effective. When Gohan fights Recoome, for example, he's watched Krillin and Vegeta get brutalized and he's clearly upset. Gohan even gives a nice, proud speech, but he doesn't get the same kind of rage boost he got against Dodoria saving Dende, or against Freeza saving Krillin. Another example is Gohan rage boosting when Piccolo dies against Nappa, but then he hardly makes Nappas hand numb and basically fails.

I can see why people would say Gohan didn't engage Cell enough as a SSJ, but Gohan's pretty inconsistent across DBZ, so I wouldn't hold that specifically against the Cell saga.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:49 am

It wasn't a rage boost. Gohan's anger was the trigger for a transformation, not a transient increase in strength.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:55 am

ABED wrote:It wasn't a rage boost. Gohan's anger was the trigger for a transformation, not a transient increase in strength.
I don't understand how this statement relates to the discussion. Rage is connected to Gohan's transformation, you can't say it's not a type of boost incurred by rage. It's only a matter of degree.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:51 pm

rereboy wrote:
TheUltimateVegito wrote:
If Cell was serious about his "goal" to strike fear into people before he kills them then he wouldn't have try to go easy.
Proving that he can, with his superior power, crush people's hopes of not dying while taking it easy and only afterwards, eventually, after they have really tasted the despair, kill them, is more satisfying for Cell than just immediately murdering people. That's why he stated he would be taking it easy in the tournament and, consequently, why he didn't kill Mr Satan since he was trying to follow that.
TheUltimateVegito wrote:
Bringing back his friends was a greater cause that was not present in the Cell Games. Everyone was alive during the Cell Games.
Bringing back his friends from death and preventing his friends from dying has exactly the same value. Both are meant to ensure that his friends are alive and well. The distinction you are trying to make doesn't make sense.
Gohan's attempt wasn't feeble, there was nothing that suggested he didn't went all out in that attempt.
When Cell says he is going to hurt his friends, Gohan jumps at Cell and Cell kicks him away with a simple kick. After that, Cell creates his Cell Jrs which then start to seriously hurt all his friends and family and Gohan just watches. He makes no further attempts to move, attack or protect. He witnesses his friends having his limps broken, starting to slip into mortal danger and he still makes no further attempts.

Gohan was basically as strong as Goku even without his SSJ2. Merely jumping at Cell and giving up after a simple kick that stops his jump is the very definition of one of the most feeble things he could have done.
Cell stopping him made Gohan realise that the only way he can get past Cell is by getting fully mad.
Gohan never cared about that before. Even when it didn't work, he just continued to try his hardest.
Thrid Form Frieza was different because his attempt actually worked.
It was different because Gohan didn't care AT ALL how strong Freeza was and, therefore, didn't hesitate AT ALL. All he cared about was Piccolo and THAT'S what made it work.

In the Cell games, all that Gohan does is hesitate and have self doubts so, OBVIOUSLY, his feeble attempt at jumping out at Cell was easily repelled. If he had acted like his previous self, he wouldn't hesitate, his attacks wouldn't be feeble, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, he wouldn't give up just because he got kicked just like he didn't give up against Reccome.
Gohan not attacking Cell constantly showed how more mature Gohan has gotten by learning from past experience. When he tried constantly attacking Recoome all he did was waste energy and nearly got himself killed, the same would've happened with Cell if he attacked constantly.
If Gohan had just stared at Reccome after being kicked once, instead of actually seriously fighting him, Reccome would just kill them all faster and Goku wouldn't have been on time to save them.

Tell me, what is more mature? Never giving up, try one's hardest, even against impossible odds, for the sake of others and for the sake of one's self, especially when trying with all of one's might is absolutely necessary, or just hesitate, have self-doubts and therefore just freeze after a feeble attempt?
Gohan's actions in the Cell Games further expanded his character. Gohan said it himself that he wants to fight Cell and the Cell Jrs while they were attacking the Z-Fighters but knew he had to unleash his hidden powers before he can do that, so it's completely in character for Gohan.
It's not a matter of he wants to do. It's a matter of Gohan being presented as someone who was grown into a fighter that doesn't hesitate and never gives up when people he cares about are in danger, and then, suddenly, in the Cell games, Gohan being presented as someone that all he does is hesitate and have self-doubts even when the people he cares about are in danger.
- But Cell wouldn't see the fear on people's faces via the tournament because the people watching aren't present in the arena.

- He was trying to prevent his friends from dying by stopping the tournament.

- How do you know that kick Cell did wasn't a powerful one? Cell was shown to have the ability to increase his power in short bursts when he quickly went full speed on Gohan. Gohan made no further attempts because he knew it won't work.

- Gohan continuing even when it didn't work was for Recoome, and we all know how that turned out. With Frieza third form he jumped at Frieza just like he did with Cell and that jump made Frieza stop shooting at Piccolo, whereas the jump on Cell didn't have the same results.

- In the Cell Games, no was coming to rescue Gohan, if Gohan got beaten to near death by Cell that would be the end for Gohan and the planet.

- It's more mature to know when not to attack and save energy and secure health, especially when you have a hidden power that you can unleash. You're telling me it's more mature for Gohan to get himself killed without unleashing his powers?

- Gohan has grown into a fighter who knows when his limits will get in the way.
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TheUltimateVegito
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:02 pm

ABED wrote:
Going straight to killing people instead of treating it like a game constitutes taking it seriously.

It's Gohan's point of view because these are factors that'll make him think it's pointless which he stated he did.

Raditz practically said to Gohan and the rest that Saiyans are in it for the money, that includes Vegeta.
Then Freeza isn't serious because he could've easily killed everyone any number of times but didn't. He toyed with them. Vegeta didn't go straight to killing people. He drew it out using the Saibaimen and Nappa. It's only when anyone posed a genuine threat that he tried to go straight for the kill. He called a 3 hour time out to allow Goku the time to arrive so Nappa and he could get a better fight.

It's not Gohan's point of view. All he said was that he found it pointless. YOU inferred the rest from that one statement.

"Practically" meaning he didn't actually say it and again you inferred. If Vegeta was actually in it for the money he wouldn't have stayed on Earth. He wants physical power. And Vegeta doesn't give a crap about Raditz.
Frieza only really toyed with the Z-Fighters, and that's because he was angry at them for ruining his chance for immortality, Cell didn't have such anger so seemed like someone who can stop from Gohan's point of view. Vegeta still had the goal of becoming immortal so it doesn't matter if he used the Saibaimen or gave the Z-Fighters 3 hours. He didn't seem like someone who would stop from Gohan's point of view since he was still serious about achieving immortality.

All evidence points to the idea that it was Gohan's point of view.

They weren't fighting Vegeta anymore by the time he stayed on earth, and Raditz did say to Gohan's hearing that the Saiyans sell planets for money.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:22 pm

There is no evidence, just your supposition. He just says "This is pointless".
Raditz did say to Gohan's hearing that the Saiyans sell planets for money.
I know what Raditz said, but that wasn't what the Saiyans did it primarily for. They are savages that enjoy fighting and killing. Money is low on their list of priorities.
Frieza only really toyed with the Z-Fighters, and that's because he was angry at them for ruining his chance for immortality, Cell didn't have such anger so seemed like someone who can stop from Gohan's point of view. Vegeta still had the goal of becoming immortal so it doesn't matter if he used the Saibaimen or gave the Z-Fighters 3 hours. He didn't seem like someone who would stop from Gohan's point of view since he was still serious about achieving immortality.
Vegeta still had the goal of becoming immortal but he had already figured out that Piccolo was a Namekian and the DB's of Namek were real, so your point is moot. In fact it proves MY point all the more. If he was so serious about achieving immortality, why toy with the Z Team? You will twist any fact to suit your theories. The number of times you've said things that are verifiably wrong and not a matter of opinion show that.
especially when you have a hidden power that you can unleash.
He didn't know that.
I don't understand how this statement relates to the discussion. Rage is connected to Gohan's transformation, you can't say it's not a type of boost incurred by rage. It's only a matter of degree.
Yes and you pointed to times where Gohan's power went up for a very short while. A transformation is forever. The reason those boosts weren't always helpful is because they were shortlived or weren't enough.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:15 pm

ABED wrote:Gohan's power went up for a very short while. A transformation is forever. The reason those boosts weren't always helpful is because they were shortlived or weren't enough.
This is pretty well explained in the material. One interesting thing that isn't explained is whether Gohan actually went SSJ2 inside the RoSaT. Goku said he saw Gohan's "hidden power", but did he just see a temporary and powerful rage boost, or did he see the same transformation we all see at the Cell games? If he did go SSJ2 in the RoSaT, what was the trigger?

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:20 pm

ABED wrote:There is no evidence, just your supposition. He just says "This is pointless".
Raditz did say to Gohan's hearing that the Saiyans sell planets for money.
I know what Raditz said, but that wasn't what the Saiyans did it primarily for. They are savages that enjoy fighting and killing. Money is low on their list of priorities.
Frieza only really toyed with the Z-Fighters, and that's because he was angry at them for ruining his chance for immortality, Cell didn't have such anger so seemed like someone who can stop from Gohan's point of view. Vegeta still had the goal of becoming immortal so it doesn't matter if he used the Saibaimen or gave the Z-Fighters 3 hours. He didn't seem like someone who would stop from Gohan's point of view since he was still serious about achieving immortality.
Vegeta still had the goal of becoming immortal but he had already figured out that Piccolo was a Namekian and the DB's of Namek were real, so your point is moot. In fact it proves MY point all the more. If he was so serious about achieving immortality, why toy with the Z Team? You will twist any fact to suit your theories. The number of times you've said things that are verifiably wrong and not a matter of opinion show that.
especially when you have a hidden power that you can unleash.
He didn't know that.
The factor of Cell treating wiping out the planet like a game shows why Gohan would find it pointless, that in itself is evidence.

Did any of the Saiyans say to Gohan that money is low on their list of priorities? No.

How does that make my point moot? Vegeta wasn't about to leave to Namek while he was on Earth when he can use Earth's Dragon Balls. It doesn't matter if Vegeta and Nappa were toying with them, they still had the end goal of obtaining immortality which is why from Gohan's point of view, they seemed like people who can't be stopped by words who were fighting for a cause. Cell didn't had such end goal and was only doing it for amusement hence why Gohan felt it was pointless.

Gohan knew he had hidden powers, he even told Cell about it.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:52 pm

Vegeta and Freeza also treated it like a game. So what if Freeza was angry? Instead of taking them out immediately, he toys with them. Both Freeza and Vegeta were amusing themselves by drawing out those battles.

No, they didn't explicitly say it, but they didn't say that money was high on their list either. Their actions SHOW that they aren't that interested in money. Vegeta is after power. That is what motivates him. He goes to Earth for the Dragon Balls. He goes to Namek for the Dragon Balls. He goes back to Earth to fight Goku whom he sees as the strongest. And now you care about what they explicitly say?
Cell didn't had such end goal
Cell does have a goal - dominance. The DB's and immortality was a means to that end. Vegeta isn't that serious about the DB's on Earth. He doesn't go after them and question the Z Team about them. He toys with them. He doesn't wait three hours to ask them about the DB's, he waits for Goku. Vegeta could've wiped every single one of them out, leaving only Piccolo, but he doesn't. Vegeta and Nappa were drawing it out as a game because they are sadistic.

And even if Gohan thought Cell wasn't serious, how does that imply that Cell can be reasoned with?

Vegito, you keep doing that. You keep saying "from Gohan's POV" as if you know it. You don't. You don't know from his dialog or his actions, you just project, and that would be fine if you called it what it is - conjecture.
This is pretty well explained in the material. One interesting thing that isn't explained is whether Gohan actually went SSJ2 inside the RoSaT. Goku said he saw Gohan's "hidden power", but did he just see a temporary and powerful rage boost, or did he see the same transformation we all see at the Cell games? If he did go SSJ2 in the RoSaT, what was the trigger?
I assumed Goku SENSED Gohan's potential. How oblivious would Gohan have to be that he goes SSJ2 and doesn't know the depth of his own power?
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