Gohan at the Cell Games

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ABED
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:16 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ABED wrote:It's not like he hasn't lost control and tried to kill people before.
Maybe, but there's a difference between killing someone and torturing someone then killing them.
He didn't torture Cell. He hurt him until 18 popped out. Regardless, that fear appeared out of nowhere and 16's speech isn't tied to that idea at all.

There's no arc, growth, or change. To even stop Cell, Gohan needs his hand held by his father. Or you could actually argue that Gohan's worse off by the end.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:33 pm

ABED wrote:
LuckyCat wrote:Maybe, but there's a difference between killing someone and torturing someone then killing them.
He didn't torture Cell. He hurt him until 18 popped out. Regardless, that fear appeared out of nowhere and 16's speech isn't tied to that idea at all.
Gohan specifically says he wants Cell to suffer, at least in the original material. And there's no way Gohan knew #18 would pop out, at least nothing prior informed Gohan that solution existed.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:48 pm

Doesn't Goku say or imply the same thing when fighting Freeza? He wants him to suffer for what he's done. THat's not torture, that's karma.

I didn't say he knew 18 would pop out. I can see why you got that from my statement, but not what I meant. Gohan hurt Cell, but he's not playing tiddlywinks. He has to hurt Cell to stop him.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:36 pm

ABED wrote:Doesn't Goku say or imply the same thing when fighting Freeza? He wants him to suffer for what he's done. THat's not torture, that's karma.

I didn't say he knew 18 would pop out. I can see why you got that from my statement, but not what I meant. Gohan hurt Cell, but he's not playing tiddlywinks. He has to hurt Cell to stop him.
Aside from the fact that Gohan is supposed to be less into fighting than his dad, the language that specifically states that Gohan wants Cell to "suffer more" before finishing him off is in contrast to what Goku says on Namek. Goku says things more like "I'm not going to forgive you even if you apologize" but he never says he needs Freeza to feel pain.

And that goes to the second point, that at the time Gohan said he wanted Cell to suffer more, Cell was already missing limbs from a kamehama and Gohan was in a position to finish him off. Goku and Piccolo are even confused when Gohan says Cell needs to suffer more. That suggests Gohan was going beyond "karma" or justice by Dragonball's typical standards, and that Gohan was going overboard. This must be what Gohan feared would happen before he snapped, he knew he'd become out of control.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:59 pm

Goku wanting Freeza to suffer had nothing to do with his love of fighting and everything to do with giving Freeza what he had coming to him. While Goku may not be explicit, it's clear that he's not out to simply defeat him. He wants to hurt Freeza physically and psychologically. He wanted that because he was angry. Regardless, Gohan never feared his anger. Cell can regenerate so the missing limbs are nothing. Goku could've finished off Freeza at damn near anytime he wanted, but chose to beat the crap out of him first. That is karma. Mere death is too good for him given what he did. Gohan wasn't going overboard in terms of the pain he was inflicting, he simply got caught up in the emotion that he missed the danger that Cell still posed.
This must be what Gohan feared would happen before he snapped, he knew he'd become out of control.
It WOULD have been interesting if that was so, but it's not ever said and it's not emphasized either thematically or as part of any arc. It's mere conjecture.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by rereboy » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:06 pm

LuckyCat wrote: This must be what Gohan feared would happen before he snapped, he knew he'd become out of control.
There's no suggestion or indication anywhere in the manga before that point of Gohan becoming cruel/sadistic while in a rage boost or being afraid of that happening. Becoming mad and attacking an opponent in order to save friends/family or to avenge them is not the same as coldly staring at the mangled body of the opponent and, instead of finishing him off, calmly state that he needs to suffer more (like he does regarding Cell).

I'm perfectly willing to accept that Gohan could have developed in that fashion, as well as in all the other ways we witness him act in the Cell games, as long as it had been properly build up beforehand. But it wasn't and that's the real issue. With proper buildup, everything regarding Gohan's action in the Cell games, would be fine from the writing point of view.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:14 pm

It's in the warning Gohan gives Cell. He told Cell that since he now has the power of SSJ, if he loses his wits, he cannot control himself and will kill Cell. So it's at least foreshadowed 8 chapters before it happens. I mean, I can see why that might not be soon enough for some people, but don't overstate your case here.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:26 pm

LuckyCat wrote:It's in the warning Gohan gives Cell. He told Cell that since he now has the power of SSJ, if he loses his wits, he cannot control himself and will kill Cell. So it's at least foreshadowed 8 chapters before it happens. I mean, I can see why that might not be soon enough for some people, but don't overstate your case here.
I'm not. That's not a setup. It's giving Gohan a problem at the last minute only to solve it shortly thereafter. I refer you to the Jaws example a few pages back to show you how ridiculous it is. He tells Cell that he's afraid of what might happen but he has never been afraid of his own power, not once. He goes into a magical room and now he's afraid. Why?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:58 pm

Because SSJ makes Saiyans act wildly. Look at Goku. Why would Goku risk his life just to fight Freeza at full power alone? That's not the same Goku who teamed up with everyone to fight Vegeta. Where was the foreshadowing that Goku would become obsessed with Freeza? It doesn't make sense unless you interpret that SSJ made Goku different in his demeanor.

SSJ made Gohan different too. He's no longer just getting angry and gaining strength. He's getting angry as a Super Saiyan and when he gets angry enough he loses control, just like his father.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:53 am

It doesn't make them act wildly. It's a tad overwhelming at first, but the transformation is triggered by anger so it seems to feed on itself for a bit, but Goku gained control of his emotions pretty quickly.
That's not the same Goku who teamed up with everyone to fight Vegeta.
He's exactly the same character. By the time Gohan and Kuririn arrived, Goku's body was broken completely. Very different scenario. When Kuririn was killed by Tambourine, Goku becomes driven to avenge his murder, so much so that he head straight into a battle against an opponent he doesn't know even though he wasn't at his full strength after his grueling fight in the 22nd Budokai. Against Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai, he didn't accept Kami's help, so much that he allowed Piccolo a free punch to make up for the one Kami blocked. Piccolo wanted to murder him and take over the world, but Goku was still driven to win the championship. Point being that Goku didn't radically change after turning Super Saiyan. He was more angry than he might have ever been, so much so that he yelled at Gohan, but he gained control very quickly and isn't nearly as different as you make him out to be. I don't think you understand Goku nearly as well as you believe. Goku loves a good fight. That's always been the case.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by rereboy » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:47 am

LuckyCat wrote:It's in the warning Gohan gives Cell. He told Cell that since he now has the power of SSJ, if he loses his wits, he cannot control himself and will kill Cell. So it's at least foreshadowed 8 chapters before it happens. I mean, I can see why that might not be soon enough for some people, but don't overstate your case here.
What should have been build up properly were his changes throughout the series in a manner that made the end result feel natural. In other words, in previous arcs, there should have been enough indications that Gohan was developing in a way that made his actions in the Cell games feel natural. We have no such indications, nothing even implied, and the "warning" that Gohan made already at the Cell games, merely a few chapters before going SSJ2 and some minutes before going SSJ2 in in-universe time, and not before the Cell games, doesn't work like that at all.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:00 pm

For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Kanassa » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:19 pm

ABED wrote:For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
At the start, he's a kid with plot potential. At the end he is the kid who has fulfilled the plot... Until Toriyama realises he wants Goku back.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:43 pm

Kanassa wrote:
ABED wrote:For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
At the start, he's a kid with plot potential. At the end he is the kid who has fulfilled the plot... Until Toriyama realises he wants Goku back.
I don't know if you are being earnest, but that's not a character arc.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:21 am

ABED wrote:For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
I think its a continuing arc ever since the saiyan arc. He has shown time and time again that he has power to someday rival his dad. He weakened raditz, helped take on Vegeta and Freeza, and when Goku pushed him to becoming a super saiyan, he could sense even more power in him. He never wanted to fight like his dad, he only fought to protect his friends and family, I feel like it came full circle in this arc.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:43 am

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
ABED wrote:For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
I think its a continuing arc ever since the saiyan arc. He has shown time and time again that he has power to someday rival his dad. He weakened raditz, helped take on Vegeta and Freeza, and when Goku pushed him to becoming a super saiyan, he could sense even more power in him. He never wanted to fight like his dad, he only fought to protect his friends and family, I feel like it came full circle in this arc.
So his arc is to end up where he began?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:33 pm

ABED wrote:
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
ABED wrote:For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
I think its a continuing arc ever since the saiyan arc. He has shown time and time again that he has power to someday rival his dad. He weakened raditz, helped take on Vegeta and Freeza, and when Goku pushed him to becoming a super saiyan, he could sense even more power in him. He never wanted to fight like his dad, he only fought to protect his friends and family, I feel like it came full circle in this arc.
So his arc is to end up where he began?
Well if you think about it, when he was first introduced, he didn't want to fight but with his power spike he weakened raditz and his father died. Against Cell, he did get the power spike, weakend Cell and his father died (again). I don't know, maybe I'm over thinking it.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:50 pm

That's not a character arc. Instead of getting bogged down in the minutia, I'm trying to understand in essential terms what those who like part of the story think Gohan's arc is. He starts off as one way, but does he in fact change at the end?
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:02 pm

I guess you can say yes and no. On one hand he is not the same cry baby he was in the beginning of Z but he still doesn't seem to enjoy fighting like his father and even after he beat Cell, he just wanted to study like Chichi wanted him too.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:52 am

Saying words like "incoherent" is another example of way over-simplifying. Where some find incoherency, I'm finding a layered continuation of the story.
The most we can say about that room is that Gohan got much stronger because of it.
I remember Gohan falling unconscious with a fever for a couple of days not long before he and Goku had emerged. It's likely that he went unconscious after being overloaded by his own power(looking it up, it's DBZ #167), which was revealed later on. Gohan was shown to still be anxious in protecting everyone in his semi-conscious rambling, but that was all before he had ever encountered Cell and had the opportunity to observe his character.

Cell started out evil, but so did Vegeta. Gohan was there to experience that first-hand. #16 -- who was designed specifically to kill Goku and be utilized as a weapon of mass destruction -- well, we know how that turned out. Gohan had seen that not everything has to absolutely follow its original script. Though not explicitly stated, we know that he witnessed these things.
the rest of your post are pure strawman arguments. How you can be so completely off the mark is beyond me. It's like you weren't even reading.
Those weren't even my arguments. That was a brief overview paraphrasing what you and others have penalized the arc for.

I have been reading -- you've said more than once that you needed impetus for change -- where's the change? Gohan's attempt at resolve is not a change within his character. This is Gohan given the opportunity, in natural character to his core, responding to a threat after he was expected to go solo on the spot and told that he was the only one in the world that had the power. He had tangled briefly with Cell at first, and his heart wasn't into what he felt was a pointless fight which then turned into him (Gohan) fearing that he would all-out lose control. It wasn't about getting cold feet.

Anyway, I blame Goku for all of this. But, Goku is Goku (this was commented about in-universe by others). Goku took responsibility for his miscalculation by attempting to remove kamikaze Cell after Gohan kept playing around, and probably also for giving Cell a senzu bean earlier.

DBZ #170 even went in a bit about Gohan's approach to resolving a conflict. Obviously to much smaller degree, but could it have been a slight precursor that this was where the narrative may have been headed? Gohan showing peaceful resolution... ?

Gohan did not come out looking worse by the end of it all, imo. Gohan had all of the raw power, but he was still a child who needed guidance -- that was kinda the point as he had always been spoiled by his home-life and relied almost entirely on others. Goku had much more experience in 1 Vs 1 big bad battles, plus was super-excited about fighting. Gohan had gotten overly reckless, and it cost him immensely in crunch time. He would be understandably completely down on himself once he had snapped out from having sadistic behavior. If not for Vegeta getting in the way and launching an attack, Gohan had committed to putting Cell down. I don't hold it against Gohan for needing a pep-talk from the afterlife at the end. The SSJ2 transformation had an unfortunate trade-off.
ABED wrote:For those that are fine with Gohan at the Cell Games, lets get to the fundamentals - what is Gohan's arc in the Cell arc? Who is he at the start and who is he at the end?
I've kinda answered this already in this thread. This arc was continuation of a greater on-going character arc that started from his introduction (the anime adaptation reminded us several times through flashbacks). By the end, the oft mentioned hidden super-power had been brought to the surface which enabled Gohan to go way beyond and protect his world(and potentially the universe) from the biggest bad, at the time.

Gohan was fundamentally consistently the same character from beginning of Z to conclusion of the Cell Games, retaining his gentle nature throughout all of his experiences, thanks to his loving family and peaceful living environment. I find it somewhat odd though that after experiencing Cell and the 'death' of Goku, that Gohan still settled for being committed full-time to being a scholar in the Boo arc. At the same time, it feels like a natural progression from the Cell arc. He had all of the power within him, but let it slip away out of lack of interest in fighting, plus a very high respect for his Mother's wishes.


Anyway, LuckyCat said it best -- this arc isn't for everyone. It's a bit more on the heavy side, and certainly not a fun watch.

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