Gohan at the Cell Games

[rereboy]

When Cell says he is going to hurt his friends, Gohan jumps at Cell and Cell kicks him away with a simple kick. After that, Cell creates his Cell Jrs which then start to seriously hurt all his friends and family and Gohan just watches. He makes no further attempts to move, attack or protect. He witnesses his friends having his limps broken, starting to slip into mortal danger and he still makes no further attempts.

The thing is, Gohan's rage boost to help his friends has never been consistent, and even when it triggers it's not always effective. When Gohan fights Recoome, for example, he's watched Krillin and Vegeta get brutalized and he's clearly upset. Gohan even gives a nice, proud speech, but he doesn't get the same kind of rage boost he got against Dodoria saving Dende, or against Freeza saving Krillin. Another example is Gohan rage boosting when Piccolo dies against Nappa, but then he hardly makes Nappas hand numb and basically fails.

I can see why people would say Gohan didn't engage Cell enough as a SSJ, but Gohan's pretty inconsistent across DBZ, so I wouldn't hold that specifically against the Cell saga.

I'm not holding the effectiveness of the rage boost against Gohan, I'm holding his attitude against him (which is inconsistent with his previous self). Even if his rage boosts weren't effective, before the Cell games Gohan would not have cared and he would try his absolute hardest, regardless of the odds, (like against Reccome for example), because the only thing on his mind would be his friends and family.

Also, I wouldn't have a problem with Gohan acting this way if it had been properly build up and developed regarding his character. But the little we see of him in the android arc before the Cell games is him ready to fight and having no problem going to ROSAT to train to fight. That means that Cell games Gohan acts that way, inconsistently with his previous self, without the necessary build up and development to make it feel natural instead of awkward when we analyze it.

- But Cell wouldn't see the fear on people's faces via the tournament because the people watching aren't present in the arena.

Cell knows he is causing it. He knows that he is causing a greater despair, pain and hopelessness in people (faced with his perfection) than he would if he just quickly killed everyone. And he would probably see it first hand when he finally decides to go on and start killing everyone.

- He was trying to prevent his friends from dying by stopping the tournament.

Who? Cell? Cell disregarded the tournament because he didn't want stuff like ring outs getting in the way, like he specially said, since he was starting to get amused.

If you are talking about Gohan, when he was called to fight, Cell had already disregarded the tournament entirely, and it couldn't be clearer that it was a fight for the sake of the planet and the lives of Gohan's friends and family. Gohan acts like he has forgotten the necessity of fighting, something that he had understood completely years before when he yelled at Chichi to go to Namek.

Furthermore, even if Gohan really wanted to just try and see if Cell could be reasoned with, he could very well try it and try to talk to him, but once Cell shot him down (like he did), Gohan, like he had done in the past, should have acted without hesitation giving his all, AT THE VERY LEAST when his friends and family are in danger.

- How do you know that kick Cell did wasn't a powerful one? Cell was shown to have the ability to increase his power in short bursts when he quickly went full speed on Gohan. Gohan made no further attempts because he knew it won't work.

Because all visual cues point towards it being a pretty normal one. Therefore it makes no sense to assume the kick was anything extraordinary relative to their power.

- Gohan continuing even when it didn't work was for Recoome, and we all know how that turned out. With Frieza third form he jumped at Frieza just like he did with Cell and that jump made Frieza stop shooting at Piccolo, whereas the jump on Cell didn't have the same results.

If his attack on third form Freeza hadn't worked as effectively as it did, Namek Gohan would have kept trying his hardest, not caring for how strong Freeza was, only caring about Piccolo who was in mortal danger, while Cell games Gohan would have just frozen up, consumed with hesitation and self-doubt and watched as Freeza did his worst to Piccolo.

- In the Cell Games, no was coming to rescue Gohan, if Gohan got beaten to near death by Cell that would be the end for Gohan and the planet.

As far as Gohan knew, there was no one coming in time to save Gohan when he saved Dende from Dodoria and Freeza. Did Gohan care? No. As far as Gohan knew, there was no coming in time to save Gohan when he attacked Freeza to save Piccolo. Did Gohan care? No. Gohan DIDN'T CARE if there was someone to save him or not, ALL HE CARED ABOUT was saving that particular person, and in the case of Dende, it wasn't even a friend or a family member, just a kid he didn't even know.

- It's more mature to know when not to attack and save energy and secure health, especially when you have a hidden power that you can unleash. You're telling me it's more mature for Gohan to get himself killed without unleashing his powers?

The reason why Cell games Gohan acted that way was not because he was following a strategy, or because he was stalling for time until the right moment, or because he was trying to fool Cell, or because he was trying to preserve anything... He was acting that way because he literally was letting his self-doubt and lack of confidence get in the way, making him hesitate and freeze up, ultimately not doing anything, which is something that he hadn't let get in a way for a very long time, at least when his friends and family were in danger.

That means that he is not exhibiting cunning or maturity, he is exhibiting insecurity and self-doubt at a time where action was not only required but essential, and those are much greater signs of immaturity than the selflessness, courage and quick action that Gohan before the Cell games showed. I would expect a novice kid fighter to act like Cell Games Gohan did, while I would expect an brave adult warrior to act like Gohan before the Cell games did.

- Gohan has grown into a fighter who knows when his limits will get in the way.

He has gone from a fighter that gives his all when his friends and family are in danger, only caring about them, to a fighter that thinks something like "how can I do this? I can't, I'm weaker, I don't know what to do, what should I do? Perhaps he can be reasoned with, since, after all, fighting is stupid... Oh, crap, he is beating me... I'm going to die... Oh crap my friends are gonna die... I jumped at him and he kicked me, there's nothing I can do? What can I do? I'm too weak to do anything! How can I get stronger? I don't know what to do!" until he freezes up and ultimately doesn't do anything besides watching.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Vegeta and Freeza also treated it like a game. So what if Freeza was angry? Instead of taking them out immediately, he toys with them. Both Freeza and Vegeta were amusing themselves by drawing out those battles.

No, they didn't explicitly say it, but they didn't say that money was high on their list either. Their actions SHOW that they aren't that interested in money. Vegeta is after power. That is what motivates him. He goes to Earth for the Dragon Balls. He goes to Namek for the Dragon Balls. He goes back to Earth to fight Goku whom he sees as the strongest. And now you care about what they explicitly say?

Cell didn't had such end goal

Cell does have a goal - dominance. The DB's and immortality was a means to that end. Vegeta isn't that serious about the DB's on Earth. He doesn't go after them and question the Z Team about them. He toys with them. He doesn't wait three hours to ask them about the DB's, he waits for Goku. Vegeta could've wiped every single one of them out, leaving only Piccolo, but he doesn't. Vegeta and Nappa were drawing it out as a game because they are sadistic.

And even if Gohan thought Cell wasn't serious, how does that imply that Cell can be reasoned with?

Vegito, you keep doing that. You keep saying "from Gohan's POV" as if you know it. You don't. You don't know from his dialog or his actions, you just project, and that would be fine if you called it what it is - conjecture.

Frieza wanted to make them suffer for ruining his chance at immortality, that shows he took immortality seriously. Vegeta and Nappa may have been amusing themselves but they weren't amusing themselves for amusement sake like Cell, their actions were still towards obtaining immortality which in itself is a legit goal.

How did their actions show they aren't interested in money? As soon as they showed up on Earth they started killing people for the sake of clearing the planet for sale. Yes money was a secondary goal as opposed to immortality but that just proves my point further, they had multiple goals unlike Cell who was just doing it for amusement only which in itself isn't a legit goal and thus made Gohan feel the Cell Games was pointless and made him feel that Cell is someone who can stop.

It implies that Cell can be reasoned with because he has already got what he wanted. Him not being serious means he wouldn't mind stopping if talked out of it from Gohan's point of view. Plus what would Cell gain out of destroying/wiping earth? Nothing apart from temporary amusement, hence why Gohan would feel Cell's desire to destroy earth is pointless. Also, when did Cell state that his goal was dominance?

So you're saying in storytelling everything should be spelled out for the viewer? Gohan said he felt the Cell Games is pointless, which is enough.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Welcome to the party, rereboy. :p

I'm holding his attitude against him (which is inconsistent with his previous self).
That means that Cell games Gohan acts that way, inconsistently with his previous self, without the necessary build up and development to make it feel natural instead of awkward when we analyze it.

He was acting that way because he literally was letting his self-doubt and lack of confidence get in the way, making him hesitate and freeze up, ultimately not doing anything, which is something that he hadn't let get in a way for a very long time, at least when his friends and family were in danger.

That means that he is not exhibiting cunning or maturity, he is exhibiting insecurity and self-doubt at a time where action was not only required but essential, and those are much greater signs of immaturity than the selflessness, courage and quick action that Gohan before the Cell games showed.

He has gone from a fighter that gives his all when his friends and family are in danger, only caring about them, to a fighter that thinks something like "how can I do this? I can't, I'm weaker, I don't know what to do, what should I do? Perhaps he can be reasoned with, since, after all, fighting is stupid... Oh, crap, he is beating me... I'm going to die... Oh crap my friends are gonna die... I jumped at him and he kicked me, there's nothing I can do? What can I do? I'm too weak to do anything! How can I get stronger? I don't know what to do!" until he freezes up and ultimately doesn't do anything besides watching.

Gohan had not been doubting himself or scared of Cell. His heart wasn't into fighting Cell, and he didn't feel it necessary to kill him if there could be a way to reason. Plus, he was terrified of losing control over himself like had been done in the past, but this time, he had experienced a super power-up. Previously, Piccolo and Vegeta had attempted similar feats of murder/takeover, but time and other experiences had noticeable effect on them (in their own way). It had nothing to do with lacking confidence. He didn't find any point in killing while the situation was still under control. Yes, his way was a naive one, but that was his feeling/resolve after having undergone his training and thoroughly reading (Goku VS Cell) that Cell's threats could be contained (by Gohan). He had an internal conflict for various reasons, and the previous displays of unconsciously jumping into action can't be applied here in the same way. It didn't help that his super-power surging up slowly in the meantime was clearly having an affect on him, which had previously -- though unaware to him -- put him down and out on the floor in the RoSaT (as we were shown).


"Inconsistencies". "Bad writing". "Out of character". "No A to Z", are terms that have been thrown around several times in this thread. These terms are waaayyy over-simplifying this particular situation. With Gohan's mature resolve, the audiences reaction should be: "Woah, Gohan's grown up a lot since his last major conflict and after experiencing special training with Goku". That was my natural thought when I first watched the original presentation of the arc for the first time. Gohan previously had lost himself in his massive power bursts through emotional reflex due to his potential not being worked into his natural fighting ability, and having little actual fighting experience in his very young age. Yes, he had fought Vegeta, Recoome, and Freeza prior -- but those were short bursts of all-out, unsustainable raw power, not a disciplined and mastered fighting style that had been given time, space, and experience.

Is this portion of the story perhaps UN-Dragon Ball? It appears that it could be in some ways. It's familiar, yet different in its approach to take down the big bad.

Is Gohan displaying inconsistent character traits? Not to me -- it's natural growth while having been removed from the battlefield. How can there be inconsistencies with his character's approach when all signs are pointing to a variety of other outside changes that had occurred during his few years away from the battlefield, plus training in such an unaccommodating place with his Dad for a year?

During this time, DB was still taking itself mostly seriously. Training meant something. A higher level of strength/ability/transformation as an end result meant something in profound ways. The story does not need to explicitly state that Gohan had heightened himself and his abilities all around, and yet it still provided subtle clues through bits of dialogue just to inform the viewer that Gohan felt different (Vegeta's words). What does that mean? What is different about Gohan's "air" as a SSJ? And that's not even mentioning the visual clues that were there for us to see many times (calm expression while facing a major threat).

The anime adaptation made a pretty big deal out of the RoSaT training -- why would the audience expect to see Gohan instantly fly off the handle like he had in the past? That would defeat the purpose of displaying the growth that Gohan had undergone. It's not as simple as saying "bad writing", imo. There's a lot more happening on an emotional level that apparently isn't so simple to fully recognize. Toriyama was sending a message, and the one character from the cast that he could pull from to deliver that message, was the prodigal child... Gohan. Interpret that message how you will...

I'm baffled that there's any controversy about this scene. It all flowed seamlessly for me every time that I've gone back to the story. :/

[TheUltimateVegito]

- But Cell wouldn't see the fear on people's faces via the tournament because the people watching aren't present in the arena.

Cell knows he is causing it. He knows that he is causing a greater despair, pain and hopelessness in people (faced with his perfection) than he would if he just quickly killed everyone. And he would probably see it first hand when he finally decides to go on and start killing everyone.

- He was trying to prevent his friends from dying by stopping the tournament.

Who? Cell? Cell disregarded the tournament because he didn't want stuff like ring outs getting in the way, like he specially said, since he was starting to get amused.

If you are talking about Gohan, when he was called to fight, Cell had already disregarded the tournament entirely, and it couldn't be clearer that it was a fight for the sake of the planet and the lives of Gohan's friends and family. Gohan acts like he has forgotten the necessity of fighting, something that he had understood completely years before when he yelled at Chichi to go to Namek.

Furthermore, even if Gohan really wanted to just try and see if Cell could be reasoned with, he could very well try it and try to talk to him, but once Cell shot him down (like he did), Gohan, like he had done in the past, should have acted without hesitation giving his all, AT THE VERY LEAST when his friends and family are in danger.

- How do you know that kick Cell did wasn't a powerful one? Cell was shown to have the ability to increase his power in short bursts when he quickly went full speed on Gohan. Gohan made no further attempts because he knew it won't work.

Because all visual cues point towards it being a pretty normal one. Therefore it makes no sense to assume the kick was anything extraordinary relative to their power.

- Gohan continuing even when it didn't work was for Recoome, and we all know how that turned out. With Frieza third form he jumped at Frieza just like he did with Cell and that jump made Frieza stop shooting at Piccolo, whereas the jump on Cell didn't have the same results.

If his attack on third form Freeza hadn't worked as effectively as it did, Namek Gohan would have kept trying his hardest, not caring for how strong Freeza was, only caring about Piccolo who was in mortal danger, while Cell games Gohan would have just frozen up, consumed with hesitation and self-doubt and watched as Freeza did his worst to Piccolo.

- In the Cell Games, no was coming to rescue Gohan, if Gohan got beaten to near death by Cell that would be the end for Gohan and the planet.

As far as Gohan knew, there was no one coming in time to save Gohan when he saved Dende from Dodoria and Freeza. Did Gohan care? No. As far as Gohan knew, there was no coming in time to save Gohan when he attacked Freeza to save Piccolo. Did Gohan care? No. Gohan DIDN'T CARE if there was someone to save him or not, ALL HE CARED ABOUT was saving that particular person, and in the case of Dende, it wasn't even a friend or a family member, just a kid he didn't even know.

- It's more mature to know when not to attack and save energy and secure health, especially when you have a hidden power that you can unleash. You're telling me it's more mature for Gohan to get himself killed without unleashing his powers?

The reason why Cell games Gohan acted that way was not because he was following a strategy, or because he was stalling for time until the right moment, or because he was trying to fool Cell, or because he was trying to preserve anything... He was acting that way because he literally was letting his self-doubt and lack of confidence get in the way, making him hesitate and freeze up, ultimately not doing anything, which is something that he hadn't let get in a way for a very long time, at least when his friends and family were in danger.

That means that he is not exhibiting cunning or maturity, he is exhibiting insecurity and self-doubt at a time where action was not only required but essential, and those are much greater signs of immaturity than the selflessness, courage and quick action that Gohan before the Cell games showed. I would expect a novice kid fighter to act like Cell Games Gohan did, while I would expect an brave adult warrior to act like Gohan before the Cell games did.

- Gohan has grown into a fighter who knows when his limits will get in the way.

He has gone from a fighter that gives his all when his friends and family are in danger, only caring about them, to a fighter that thinks something like "how can I do this? I can't, I'm weaker, I don't know what to do, what should I do? Perhaps he can be reasoned with, since, after all, fighting is stupid... Oh, crap, he is beating me... I'm going to die... Oh crap my friends are gonna die... I jumped at him and he kicked me, there's nothing I can do? What can I do? I'm too weak to do anything! How can I get stronger? I don't know what to do!" until he freezes up and ultimately doesn't do anything besides watching.

But he still wouldn't see them. From Gohan's point of view, if he was serious about seeing the fear on people's faces before he killed them, then he would've done just that. Go around slowly killing people after he defeated Trunks.

Cell only changed the rules of the tournament mid fight, it's still a tournament and doesn't impact the stakes in any way whatsoever. Gohan didn't forget the necessity of fighting, only that the Cell Games was a different situation than the fights before it.

Gohan did fight back when Cell turned him down, it's unclear whether or not he went all out so I'm going to assume he did. The reason why Cell was dominating him moreso than he did Goku was because he went full speed on him, something in which he didn't do to Goku.

No visual cues are needed, we never needed visual cues to see if someone is using a powerful move. Plus, Gohan's reaction to the kick proves that it was a powerful one.

The difference between Dodoria/Frieza and Cell is, like I said, the attempts against Dodoria and Frieza actually worked whereas Cell's didn't. It's mature for him to know his limits and not act recklessly.

Not exactly. He was trying to unleash his power because he knew that was the only way to get past Cell, he was confident that if he unleashes his power he'd get past Cell and save his friends. Gohan would've acted the same way with Frieza if his charge didn't work.

[ABED]

Is Gohan displaying inconsistent character traits? Not to me -- it's natural growth while having been removed from the battlefield. How can there be inconsistencies with his character's approach when all signs are pointing to a variety of other outside changes that had occurred during his few years away from the battlefield, plus training in such an unaccommodating place with his Dad for a year?

That's not natural growth because it's not growth. His fight in the Cell Games doesn't show discipline. It actually shows the opposite.

Frieza wanted to make them suffer for ruining his chance at immortality, that shows he took immortality seriously. Vegeta and Nappa may have been amusing themselves but they weren't amusing themselves for amusement sake like Cell, their actions were still towards obtaining immortality which in itself is a legit goal.

How did their actions show they aren't interested in money? As soon as they showed up on Earth they started killing people for the sake of clearing the planet for sale. Yes money was a secondary goal as opposed to immortality but that just proves my point further, they had multiple goals unlike Cell who was just doing it for amusement only which in itself isn't a legit goal and thus made Gohan feel the Cell Games was pointless and made him feel that Cell is someone who can stop.

It implies that Cell can be reasoned with because he has already got what he wanted. Him not being serious means he wouldn't mind stopping if talked out of it from Gohan's point of view. Plus what would Cell gain out of destroying/wiping earth? Nothing apart from temporary amusement, hence why Gohan would feel Cell's desire to destroy earth is pointless. Also, when did Cell state that his goal was dominance?

So you're saying in storytelling everything should be spelled out for the viewer? Gohan said he felt the Cell Games is pointless, which is enough.

Legit goal for who? Vegeta was going to use that power to dominate people for eternity. All three characters wanted power.

No, they showed up on Earth and killed people to get immortality and then to amuse themselves. Their actions show they don't really care about the money because Vegeta doesn't go after money. It's NEVER shown as high on his list of priorities. Amassing physical power is. Why are money and immortality legit goals, but Cell's desire to attain power and test it not? Again, stop projecting your views on the series! You don't know if that's Gohan's train of thought. He never says anything other than "it's pointless". Everything else is your POV. Even assuming that Gohan thought Cell amusing himself with the tournament was pointless, how does that imply Cell can be stopped without fighting? Cell's actions prove that he's trying to dominate people. He wants to obtain ultimate power and uses the Cell Games to prove that he's stronger. Just because Cell got ultimate power doesn't mean he doesn't have further goals.

No, I didn't say that everything needs to be spelled out. I look at their actions and look for the underlying factors because actions speak louder than words.

[rereboy]

Gohan had not been doubting himself.

That is simply not true.

For example, directly from the manga, Gohan states in his thoughts: "They're all going to die!! If I really have hidden powers, I've got to use them!! I want to beat Cell. But I don't know how to do it... I don't know how to use my rage!!"

It's clear just from this that Gohan is not absolutely sure he has hidden powers left and, even if he does, instead of just having the confidence to just attack Cell with all his heart and rage because what's important is his friends and not thinking about odds or how exactly he can do it, he is just stuck there muttering to himself that he doesn't know how to, consciously, do it.

His heart wasn't into fighting Cell, and he didn't feel it necessary to kill him if there could be a way to reason.

And that is all fine. By all means, he didn't lose anything in trying to make Cell listen to reason. However, he tried that and Cell refused to back down. After that, Gohan stopped trying to reason with him because he knew it was pointless... but he still didn't fight as he should because he was plagued with lack of confidence and self-doubt.

But he still wouldn't see them. From Gohan's point of view, if he was serious about seeing the fear on people's faces before he killed them, then he would've done just that. Go around slowly killing people after he defeated Trunks.

Your assumption that he requires to see them is baseless. Cell didn't see everyone's faces when he chose broadcast in TV his intentions, but he was nonetheless delighted by the terror he knew he was causing.

Cell only changed the rules of the tournament mid fight, it's still a tournament and doesn't impact the stakes in any way whatsoever. Gohan didn't forget the necessity of fighting, only that the Cell Games was a different situation than the fights before it.

You are contradicting yourself. You stated that the stakes are exactly the same (aka the survival of the planet and his family and friends), but somehow the Cell games are a different situation than the fights before it...?

Gohan did fight back when Cell turned him down, it's unclear whether or not he went all out so I'm going to assume he did. The reason why Cell was dominating him moreso than he did Goku was because he went full speed on him, something in which he didn't do to Goku.

After seeing the Goku VS Cell fight, in which Goku even blew Cell's head off, and knowing that Gohan is around Goku's power even without SSJ2 (since even Cell stated that maybe it wasn't just a bluff what Goku had said), you assume that what Gohan did was his best? Gohan, literally, in the manga, in the entire fight, from its start to going SSJ2, kicked once and jumped at Cell once. That's all. Everything else he did was just dodging or stand still. You assume that that's his best, even without SSJ2...?

No visual cues are needed, we never needed visual cues to see if someone is using a powerful move. Plus, Gohan's reaction to the kick proves that it was a powerful one.

What...? There are only two ways to determine how strong an attack was: by statements in the manga or by was is drawn in the manga (aka visual cues).

There were no statements regarding the power of the kick, so we can't assume anything from that... As for what we see, there's nothing suggesting any more power than the one strictly necessary to make Gohan fall down since Gohan isn't injured, he isn't projected far, the surroundings aren't destroyed, and, overall, the scene isn't drawn any more impressively than it required to be, like it should be if it was trying to convey the idea that the kick was very powerful and more than just the necessary to make Gohan fall down. You are just assuming it does because you want to do that, not because of anything we actually see in the manga.

The difference between Dodoria/Frieza and Cell is, like I said, the attempts against Dodoria and Frieza actually worked whereas Cell's didn't. It's mature for him to know his limits and not act recklessly.

Like I've already said, Gohan wasn't buying his time for anything. He didn't have a plan, or any idea at all. You are talking like somehow it was a good idea to wait, to not act, but wait for what? There was nothing to wait for, no cunning, no strategy that Gohan was employing. There was only acting and not acting, that's all there was to do, and Gohan was not acting because he simply didn't think he could do it without knowing how.

Furthermore, he didn't even try seriously (one kick and jumping at Cell once...), and even if it didn't work after trying seriously, the previous Gohan would have just kept trying.

Not exactly. He was trying to unleash his power because he knew that was the only way to get past Cell, he was confident that if he unleashes his power he'd get past Cell and save his friends. Gohan would've acted the same way with Frieza if his charge didn't work.

What...? His fight with Reccome in the same arc proves the exact opposite, Gohan would have just kept trying, only thinking about saving his friends and family. Furthermore, you are putting all the importance on whether it worked or not when what's in discussion in the consistently of Gohan's attitude and personality. Like it was demonstrated, the previous Gohan wouldn't care about the odds, about how strong the opponent was, and if it didn't work, he would just keep trying, caring only for who he was trying to save.

Honestly, you seem to base your arguments more on how you want things to be and as a way to try to refute what has been said to you, instead of basing it on a logical conclusion from what actually is there on the manga. To be honest, I would actually prefer if I could look at Gohan at the Cell games and think "yes, this is consistent with his character and there's no lack of development to justify what happens and make it feel natural" because I would then like the arc, the character, and even DB more, but I wouldn't be honest with myself. That's not the logical conclusion I arrive at when I analyze it as impartially as I can and I've already more than explained why in detail here. Therefore, there is no point in continuing the discussion and it's also not pleasant to continue a discussion in these conditions. I'll end here, for my part.

[TheUltimateVegito]

But he still wouldn't see them. From Gohan's point of view, if he was serious about seeing the fear on people's faces before he killed them, then he would've done just that. Go around slowly killing people after he defeated Trunks.

Your assumption that he requires to see them is baseless. Cell didn't see everyone's faces when he chose broadcast in TV his intentions, but he was nonetheless delighted by the terror he knew he was causing.

Cell only changed the rules of the tournament mid fight, it's still a tournament and doesn't impact the stakes in any way whatsoever. Gohan didn't forget the necessity of fighting, only that the Cell Games was a different situation than the fights before it.

You are contradicting yourself. You stated that the stakes are exactly the same (aka the survival of the planet and his family and friends), but somehow the Cell games are a different situation than the fights before it...?

Gohan did fight back when Cell turned him down, it's unclear whether or not he went all out so I'm going to assume he did. The reason why Cell was dominating him moreso than he did Goku was because he went full speed on him, something in which he didn't do to Goku.

After seeing the Goku VS Cell fight, in which Goku even blew Cell's head off, and knowing that Gohan is around Goku's power even without SSJ2 (since even Cell stated that maybe it wasn't just a bluff what Goku had said), you assume that what Gohan did was his best? Gohan, literally, in the manga, in the entire fight, from its start to going SSJ2, kicked once and jumped at Cell once. That's all. Everything else he did was just dodging or stand still. You assume that that's his best, even without SSJ2...?

No visual cues are needed, we never needed visual cues to see if someone is using a powerful move. Plus, Gohan's reaction to the kick proves that it was a powerful one.

What...? There are only two ways to determine how strong an attack was: by statements in the manga or by was is drawn in the manga (aka visual cues).

There were no statements regarding the power of the kick, so we can't assume anything from that... As for what we see, there's nothing suggesting any more power than the one strictly necessary to make Gohan fall down since Gohan isn't injured, he isn't projected far, the surroundings aren't destroyed, and, overall, the scene isn't drawn any more impressively than it required to be, like it should be if it was trying to convey the idea that the kick was very powerful and more than just the necessary to make Gohan fall down. You are just assuming it does because you want to do that, not because of anything we actually see in the manga.

The difference between Dodoria/Frieza and Cell is, like I said, the attempts against Dodoria and Frieza actually worked whereas Cell's didn't. It's mature for him to know his limits and not act recklessly.

Like I've already said, Gohan wasn't buying his time for anything. He didn't have a plan, or any idea at all. You are talking like somehow it was a good idea to wait, to not act, but wait for what? There was nothing to wait for, no cunning, no strategy that Gohan was employing. There was only acting and not acting, that's all there was to do, and Gohan was not acting because he simply didn't think he could do it without knowing how.

Furthermore, he didn't even try seriously (one kick and jumping at Cell once...), and even if it didn't work after trying seriously, the previous Gohan would have just kept trying.

Not exactly. He was trying to unleash his power because he knew that was the only way to get past Cell, he was confident that if he unleashes his power he'd get past Cell and save his friends. Gohan would've acted the same way with Frieza if his charge didn't work.

What...? His fight with Reccome in the same arc proves the exact opposite, Gohan would have just kept trying, only thinking about saving his friends and family. Furthermore, you are putting all the importance on whether it worked or not when what's in discussion in the consistently of Gohan's attitude and personality. Like it was demonstrated, the previous Gohan wouldn't care about the odds, about how strong the opponent was, and if it didn't work, he would just keep trying, caring only for who he was trying to save.

Honestly, you seem to base your arguments more on how you want things to be and as a way to try to refute what has been said to you, instead of basing it on a logical conclusion from what actually is there on the manga. To be honest, I would actually prefer if I could look at Gohan at the Cell games and think "yes, this is consistent with his character and there's no lack of development to justify what happens and make it feel natural" because I would then like the arc, the character, and even DB more, but I wouldn't be honest with myself. That's not the logical conclusion I arrive at when I analyze it as impartially as I can and I've already more than explained why in detail here. Therefore, there is no point in continuing the discussion and it's also not pleasant to continue a discussion in these conditions. I'll end here, for my part.

All he did when broadcast his intentions on TV was announced the Cell Games, he didn't said or did anything that shows how delighted he was from the terror he was causing.

It's different because Cell had no real reason to destroyed the planet and didn't seem serious about wiping out the planet and seeing the fear in people's faces. Like I said, if he went straight to slowly killing people then he would've seemed serious about it instead of holding the Cell Games in which all it does is delay Cell from torturing people like he wanted. It makes the Cell Games pointless from Gohan point of view because Cell has no real reason to kill people and see the fear in their faces.

Goku only blew Cell's head of via I.T Kamehameha, a technique which Gohan doesn't have. Are you forgetting when Gohan kicked Cell back? And yes I'm positive it was his best due to how he reacted to the kick.

Now you're just making up rules. When was it stated that statements and drawings are the only way to convey power? Reactions to an attack can also convey power and Gohan's reaction to Cell's attack shows how powerful it was.

He did try seriously, Cell even said "If you're going to get mad you better go all the way" showing that Gohan used more of his anger/power against Cell than he did prior to that attempt. Gohan was trying to unleash his hidden powers, he wasn't doing nothing.

Gohan nearly got himself killed by continuing to attack Recooome, he never continued to attack the same way after and even before that. Gohan must've learned not to act recklessly after his near experience with Recoome. There's nothing that shows he wouldn't have acted the same way he did with Cell against Frieza because Frieza was after Recoome.

I'm sure I'm going by what's in the manga.

[Kanassa]

You know what could have helped for this moment? Gohan's death and defeat. Somewhere before the Cell fights, GOhan is killed and then revived. And he gets understandably traumatised by this (Like Krillin does) and constantly thinks about his death in every dangerous situation. We fast forward to Imperfect Cell kicking Piccolo's ass, instead of Goku stopping Gohan, Gohan rushes off to defend Piccolo; and Cell utterly decimates him, almost killing him if not for Goku teleporting in and whisking them all away. Gohan's healed up, and taken into the chamber to train.

Cut to the Cell games, and Gohan is left to face Cell, who already makes note of their prior encounter as well as referencing Gohan's first death. And all at once that all comes flooding back, that fear eating at him. That fear that didn't occur to him in the Freeza sag or the Saiyan saga because he survived those encounters. And at the height of Gohan's paralysing fear, he hears the calls of his family and friends as they are beaten. Then he encounters 16's severed head, soeone who to his knowledge has lost everything to Cell's quest for perfection, his few friends, his body and soon his life. Kind of like a broken vision of what Gohan would be after this encounter. And this android, Gohan knows the dragon balls can't bring him back (For some reason), but 16 doesn't care; he's simply a kindred spirit who won't stand idly by, who goes on a speech about how death isn't the end or something. Maybe informs him of all the deeds Goku had committed in his youth, all the terrifying foes he showed no fear again (Gero probably kept a lot of data about Goku's feats); maybe there's a brief pep talk from Trunks to remind Gohan of another who's lost everything and still kept going.

[LuckyCat]

You know what could have helped for this moment? Gohan's death and defeat. Somewhere before the Cell fights, GOhan is killed and then revived. And he gets understandably traumatised by this (Like Krillin does) and constantly thinks about his death in every dangerous situation.

Oh man, that's pretty dark for Dragon Ball, especially since Gohan's a kid. I don't think a character has to die once to be afraid of succumbing to the bloodlust associated with SSJ2. Especially a half human who isn't fully designed to love fighting like a Saiyan in the first place.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Frieza wanted to make them suffer for ruining his chance at immortality, that shows he took immortality seriously. Vegeta and Nappa may have been amusing themselves but they weren't amusing themselves for amusement sake like Cell, their actions were still towards obtaining immortality which in itself is a legit goal.

How did their actions show they aren't interested in money? As soon as they showed up on Earth they started killing people for the sake of clearing the planet for sale. Yes money was a secondary goal as opposed to immortality but that just proves my point further, they had multiple goals unlike Cell who was just doing it for amusement only which in itself isn't a legit goal and thus made Gohan feel the Cell Games was pointless and made him feel that Cell is someone who can stop.

It implies that Cell can be reasoned with because he has already got what he wanted. Him not being serious means he wouldn't mind stopping if talked out of it from Gohan's point of view. Plus what would Cell gain out of destroying/wiping earth? Nothing apart from temporary amusement, hence why Gohan would feel Cell's desire to destroy earth is pointless. Also, when did Cell state that his goal was dominance?

So you're saying in storytelling everything should be spelled out for the viewer? Gohan said he felt the Cell Games is pointless, which is enough.

Legit goal for who? Vegeta was going to use that power to dominate people for eternity. All three characters wanted power.

No, they showed up on Earth and killed people to get immortality and then to amuse themselves. Their actions show they don't really care about the money because Vegeta doesn't go after money. It's NEVER shown as high on his list of priorities. Amassing physical power is. Why are money and immortality legit goals, but Cell's desire to attain power and test it not? Again, stop projecting your views on the series! You don't know if that's Gohan's train of thought. He never says anything other than "it's pointless". Everything else is your POV. Even assuming that Gohan thought Cell amusing himself with the tournament was pointless, how does that imply Cell can be stopped without fighting? Cell's actions prove that he's trying to dominate people. He wants to obtain ultimate power and uses the Cell Games to prove that he's stronger. Just because Cell got ultimate power doesn't mean he doesn't have further goals.

No, I didn't say that everything needs to be spelled out. I look at their actions and look for the underlying factors because actions speak louder than words.

And dominating for eternity is a legit goal for the Saiyans/Frieza, whereas Cell said he doesn't care for dominating.

Raditz said they were going to conquer earth, but they never said or did anything that shown they were after physical power over conquering earth. Yes, gaining power and testing it was a legit goal for Cell but, like I said, Cell already obtained power and his desire to wipe out earth wasn't a legit goal because he was just doing it out of amusement.

No, everything else relates to why Gohan would find it pointless so it's what I believe to be Gohan's point of view. By saying Gohan needs to spell everything out is saying storytelling in general needs to spell everything out for the viewer. It implies Cell would stop because Cell already achieved what he wanted (Tested his powers against Goku and obtained perfection) so Cell has no real reason to continue fighting from Gohan's point of view.

He wanted to host the Cell Games to test his perfect form, not prove that he's stronger. Cell said it himself that he doesn't care for dominance.

[Kanassa]

You know what could have helped for this moment? Gohan's death and defeat. Somewhere before the Cell fights, GOhan is killed and then revived. And he gets understandably traumatised by this (Like Krillin does) and constantly thinks about his death in every dangerous situation.

Oh man, that's pretty dark for Dragon Ball, especially since Gohan's a kid. I don't think a character has to die once to be afraid of succumbing to the bloodlust associated with SSJ2. Especially a half human who isn't fully designed to love fighting like a Saiyan in the first place.

It would do better at rationalising Gohan's doubts without contradicting earlier feats.

[LuckyCat]

Future Gohan's already died to androids and present Gohan knows it. That should be initimidating enough.

[ABED]

And dominating for eternity is a legit goal for the Saiyans/Frieza, whereas Cell said he doesn't care for dominating.

Raditz said they were going to conquer earth, but they never said or did anything that shown they were after physical power over conquering earth. Yes, gaining power and testing it was a legit goal for Cell but, like I said, Cell already obtained power and his desire to wipe out earth wasn't a legit goal because he was just doing it out of amusement.

No, everything else relates to why Gohan would find it pointless so it's what I believe to be Gohan's point of view. By saying Gohan needs to spell everything out is saying storytelling in general needs to spell everything out for the viewer. It implies Cell would stop because Cell already achieved what he wanted (Tested his powers against Goku and obtained perfection) so Cell has no real reason to continue fighting from Gohan's point of view.

He wanted to host the Cell Games to test his perfect form, not prove that he's stronger. Cell said it himself that he doesn't care for dominance.

Vegeta doesn't seem like he wants to be a dictator. He seems more like someone who enjoys killing and lording it over people that he's stronger. He and Cell are very similar in that respect.

Neither Nappa nor Vegeta especially cared for Raditz, so what does that tell you? What was Vegeta after first and foremost in that arc? When I say they are power lusters, in the case of DB, I mean Vegeta wants to get as powerful as possible and he wants people to know he's stronger than him. Just look back at the entire series. What is Vegeta's raison d'etre?

Your entire third paragraph is off the mark. I never said everything needs to be spelled out, but you take wild leaps. For instance, Goku wasn't the only one Cell wanted to test his powers against. He wanted to test them against Goku the most because he assumed Goku was the strongest. You keep doing that where you talk about Gohan's POV when all you have is conjecture.

Your last paragraph is one huge contradiction. He wants to test his perfect form and prove that he's stronger. Of course he wants to dominate people. He likes being far stronger than people and boasts about it regularly.

[TheUltimateVegito]

And dominating for eternity is a legit goal for the Saiyans/Frieza, whereas Cell said he doesn't care for dominating.

Raditz said they were going to conquer earth, but they never said or did anything that shown they were after physical power over conquering earth. Yes, gaining power and testing it was a legit goal for Cell but, like I said, Cell already obtained power and his desire to wipe out earth wasn't a legit goal because he was just doing it out of amusement.

No, everything else relates to why Gohan would find it pointless so it's what I believe to be Gohan's point of view. By saying Gohan needs to spell everything out is saying storytelling in general needs to spell everything out for the viewer. It implies Cell would stop because Cell already achieved what he wanted (Tested his powers against Goku and obtained perfection) so Cell has no real reason to continue fighting from Gohan's point of view.

He wanted to host the Cell Games to test his perfect form, not prove that he's stronger. Cell said it himself that he doesn't care for dominance.

Vegeta doesn't seem like he wants to be a dictator. He seems more like someone who enjoys killing and lording it over people that he's stronger. He and Cell are very similar in that respect.

Neither Nappa nor Vegeta especially cared for Raditz, so what does that tell you? What was Vegeta after first and foremost in that arc? When I say they are power lusters, in the case of DB, I mean Vegeta wants to get as powerful as possible and he wants people to know he's stronger than him. Just look back at the entire series. What is Vegeta's raison d'etre?

Your entire third paragraph is off the mark. I never said everything needs to be spelled out, but you take wild leaps. For instance, Goku wasn't the only one Cell wanted to test his powers against. He wanted to test them against Goku the most because he assumed Goku was the strongest. You keep doing that where you talk about Gohan's POV when all you have is conjecture.

Your last paragraph is one huge contradiction. He wants to test his perfect form and prove that he's stronger. Of course he wants to dominate people. He likes being far stronger than people and boasts about it regularly.

It's not about him wanting to be a dictator, it's about him wanting to sell the planet for money.

Even if they didn't care for Raditz, doesn't change what Raditz said about the Saiyans wanting to sell planets for money. Vegeta mainly wanted to obtain immortality, not just power.

By saying Gohan needs to say more even though him finding the Cell Games pointless is enough to interpret it a certain way means you want everything to be spelled out.

Exactly, he thought Goku was the strongest so he already got what he wanted by tested his powers as much as can against him. There was no need for him to fight anymore because he already tested his perfect form.

He didn't boost about it regularly. And how is it a contradiction? He didn't care for proving he was stronger because his ego was already satisfied, he just wanted to test his perfect form. And he said he doesn't care for conquering the world meaning he doesn't care for dominating people.

[ABED]

He didn't boost about it regularly. And how is it a contradiction? He didn't care for proving he was stronger because his ego was already satisfied, he just wanted to test his perfect form. And he said he doesn't care for conquering the world meaning he doesn't care for dominating people.

Cell does boast about it regularly. He does little else but that. He's constantly going on and on about his perfect power. He holds a damn tournament in order to show off how much stronger than everyone else he is. Cell's ego was NOT satisfied. Anytime anyone proves they are stronger, he loses his cool. He yelled like a child having a fit when Vegeta showed him up in his 2nd form, and when SS2 Gohan beats the hell out of him, he loses his cool again. When Gohan is proven vastly superior, he tries to blow up the world. And when I say "dominate people" I don't mean rule them like a dictator. I mean he likes proving his superiority and beating the hell out of people. He likes to dominate a battle.

Exactly, he thought Goku was the strongest so he already got what he wanted by tested his powers as much as can against him. There was no need for him to fight anymore because he already tested his perfect form.

What!? That's verifiably wrong. He didn't get what he wanted. Goku wasn't the strongest. He hadn't tested his perfect form against the strongest and ultimately, he's not out to test it in the same way Goku likes to test his limits. Even an armchair psychologist can tell you that Cell isn't really trying to test his limits. That's a pretext for showing off how much stronger and better he is than everyone else. It's what makes him a villain and differentiates him from someone like Goku. Given how he got his power and what he does with it afterwards, he's clearly evil and won't stop just because he achieved his intended goal. He won't just go on his merry way because he's become "perfect".

It's comments like these that make me think you don't understand the show at all which is odd considering that it's very surface level.

[TheUltimateVegito]

He didn't boost about it regularly. And how is it a contradiction? He didn't care for proving he was stronger because his ego was already satisfied, he just wanted to test his perfect form. And he said he doesn't care for conquering the world meaning he doesn't care for dominating people.

Cell does boast about it regularly. He does little else but that. He's constantly going on and on about his perfect power. He holds a damn tournament in order to show off how much stronger than everyone else he is. Cell's ego was NOT satisfied. Anytime anyone proves they are stronger, he loses his cool. He yelled like a child having a fit when Vegeta showed him up in his 2nd form, and when SS2 Gohan beats the hell out of him, he loses his cool again. When Gohan is proven vastly superior, he tries to blow up the world. And when I say "dominate people" I don't mean rule them like a dictator. I mean he likes proving his superiority and beating the hell out of people. He likes to dominate a battle.

Exactly, he thought Goku was the strongest so he already got what he wanted by tested his powers as much as can against him. There was no need for him to fight anymore because he already tested his perfect form.

What!? That's verifiably wrong. He didn't get what he wanted. Goku wasn't the strongest. He hadn't tested his perfect form against the strongest and ultimately, he's not out to test it in the same way Goku likes to test his limits. Even an armchair psychologist can tell you that Cell isn't really trying to test his limits. That's a pretext for showing off how much stronger and better he is than everyone else. It's what makes him a villain and differentiates him from someone like Goku. Given how he got his power and what he does with it afterwards, he's clearly evil and won't stop just because he achieved his intended goal. He won't just go on his merry way because he's become "perfect".

It's comments like these that make me think you don't understand the show at all which is odd considering that it's very surface level.

I'm sure he didn't boast about it much, could you give examples of him boasting about it? Just because he loses his cool doesn't mean his ego wasn't satisfied beforehand, his ego was satisfied because he believed himself to be the strongest before SSJ2 Gohan beat him. Cell would rather have a tight battle than one where he dominates, he even said so to Goku "Battles are only fun were the contestants are evenly match" he said something like that to Goku.

Now you're making baseless assumptions, Cell said it himself that he wants to test his perfect form, he gave the Z-Fighters 10 days to get stronger after knowing how much stronger Trunks has gotten. It makes him more like Goku than anything.

[ssjprodigy]

n/ahhhntngnhgnb

[ABED]

Just because he loses his cool doesn't mean his ego wasn't satisfied beforehand, his ego was satisfied because he believed himself to be the strongest before SSJ2 Gohan beat him.

That's exactly what that means. People that are so insecure that they act like a whiny child when they don't get what they want are never fully satisfied. That's very basic psychology. People who are better than them are an affront to their superficial sense of self-worth.

Now you're making baseless assumptions, Cell said it himself that he wants to test his perfect form, he gave the Z-Fighters 10 days to get stronger after knowing how much stronger Trunks has gotten. It makes him more like Goku than anything.

No it doesn't. Cell wants to prove it to everyone that he's superior. Goku doesn't care if he has an audience. Goku wouldn't murder millions of people to obtain that power and he wouldn't go on worldwide TV to boast about his power and tournament. Goku only cared about winning the Tenkaichi Budokai, not if the audience was there to see him win.

I'm sure he didn't boast about it much, could you give examples of him boasting about it?

Constantly talking about being "perfect" and how he's the strongest isn't good enough for you?

[TheUltimateVegito]

Just because he loses his cool doesn't mean his ego wasn't satisfied beforehand, his ego was satisfied because he believed himself to be the strongest before SSJ2 Gohan beat him.

That's exactly what that means. People that are so insecure that they act like a whiny child when they don't get what they want are never fully satisfied. That's very basic psychology. People who are better than them are an affront to their superficial sense of self-worth.

Now you're making baseless assumptions, Cell said it himself that he wants to test his perfect form, he gave the Z-Fighters 10 days to get stronger after knowing how much stronger Trunks has gotten. It makes him more like Goku than anything.

No it doesn't. Cell wants to prove it to everyone that he's superior. Goku doesn't care if he has an audience. Goku wouldn't murder millions of people to obtain that power and he wouldn't go on worldwide TV to boast about his power and tournament. Goku only cared about winning the Tenkaichi Budokai, not if the audience was there to see him win.

I'm sure he didn't boast about it much, could you give examples of him boasting about it?

Constantly talking about being "perfect" and how he's the strongest isn't good enough for you?

Cell didn't act like a whiny child, he just got angry and lost his cool. So you're telling me Cell didn't believe he was the strongest before he hosted the Cell Games?

That what makes Cell such a great character, he has the personality of other characters (Mainly Frieza and a bit of King Piccolo) not only Goku, but his Goku side wants to test his limits at a tournament. Goku cared about testing his limits not only winning, much like Cell. Cell never stated he wanted to prove he's superior because he already believed he's superior, all he wanted to do was test his limits.

I don't recall him constantly talking about how he's perfect and the strongest in the manga.

[ABED]

Of course he did. When Vegeta showed him up, Cell screamed like a kid who couldn't get his way.

So you're telling me Cell didn't believe he was the strongest before he hosted the Cell Games?

Is that what you think being insecure means?

That what makes Cell such a great character, he has the personality of other characters (Mainly Frieza and a bit of King Piccolo) not only Goku, but his Goku side wants to test his limits at a tournament. Goku cared about testing his limits not only winning, much like Cell. Cell never stated he wanted to prove he's superior because he already believed he's superior, all he wanted to do was test his limits.

I think Cell is much more like Vegeta than he is Freeza. Freeza has a very different motivation. Cell did want to win, and not only that, he wants to hurt people. We see that in his actions. He takes perverse pleasure in hurting people. Cell does believe he's superior to everyone, but unlike Goku and like Vegeta, he wants everyone to know it. When someone comes along that hurts his self perception, he loses it. Goku doesn't lose his temper when there's someone stronger than him. He gets excited.