Gohan at the Cell Games

[TheUltimateVegito]

'what was the key to unleashing his powers' it's better storytelling for it to remain a mystery until the Cell Games than revealing it beforehand which would've dampened the big revelation of his belief that killing is a sin in the Cell Games.

How is that better storytelling? I get that an author wouldn't want to telegraph the story and his reveals, but introducing that conflict late into the story doesn't flow from the rest of the story. To go back to Jaws for a minute. Brody's hatred of water is introduced pretty early in the movie. Even if you haven't seen it before, there's a good chance that he will resolve that conflict by the end. That doesn't make it any less satisfying when it does happen. It's all about execution.

The fact that Gohan didn't like to fight (which relates to his belief that killing is a sin) was introduced early too.

[ABED]

His lack of desire to fight has nothing to do with this. He doesn't enjoy it like his father does, but he'll do it if he has to. That is introduced early and it's consistent. The other stuff isn't. His lack of love of fighting has much more to do with his upbringing. He was a pampered child and he wants to go back to studying, but he knows he can't if the world is going to end. He has no qualm with killing if it's justified. Hell, he had no qualm with his dad letting Dr. Gero finish the cyborgs.

[LuckyCat]

That's up to interpretation.

How is that up to interpretation. When were we ever shown that?

When were we ever shown him killing anyone? That was my question.

[ABED]

That's up to interpretation.

How is that up to interpretation. When were we ever shown that?

When were we ever shown him killing anyone? That was my question.

Aside from the lackies on Namek? No one. Even if he hadn't killed them, he's tried to kill people before, like Freeza and Vegeta. That's morally the same as succeeding. Okay, can we vere back to Gohan and the Cell Games? This feels like we're just arguing UltimateVegito's thread again.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Now you are just making stuff up in order to justify not conceding. You are retconning Gohan's beliefs. Why would Gohan believe fighting Cell was pointless but killing two pissant lackies was justified?

Because those two lackeys were part of a greater cause. Remember that Gohan himself didn't know that his belief was holding him back and thought he was doing what's best by fighting to kill.

[ABED]

Now you are just making stuff up in order to justify not conceding. You are retconning Gohan's beliefs. Why would Gohan believe fighting Cell was pointless but killing two pissant lackies was justified?

Because those two lackeys were part of a greater cause. Remember that Gohan himself didn't know that his belief was holding him back and thought he was doing what's best by fighting to kill.

Cell is part of a greater cause! How is he not? In fact he's of far greater concern because the stakes are even greater.

[LuckyCat]

Aside from the lackies on Namek? No one. Even if he hadn't killed them, he's tried to kill people before, like Freeza and Vegeta. That's morally the same as succeeding. Okay, can we vere back to Gohan and the Cell Games? This feels like we're just arguing UltimateVegito's thread again.

We don't know if those lackies are dead (unless we go by the guidebooks which you said you reject). I'm not saying that it's absolutely certain Gohan wouldn't kill, but his gentle nature and otherwise lack of evidence of killing does support it. So the interpretation that Gohan is going for a KO victory on any of those occasions is there. This is related to the Cell Games because it's the first time Gohan speaks his mind about killing, rather than just showing his peaceful nature before. I think it's the lack of explicit statements before Cell Games about Gohan's peaceful nature that's causing the disagreement here.

[TheUltimateVegito]

His lack of desire to fight has nothing to do with this. He doesn't enjoy it like his father does, but he'll do it if he has to. That is introduced early and it's consistent. The other stuff isn't. His lack of love of fighting has much more to do with his upbringing. He was a pampered child and he wants to go back to studying, but he knows he can't if the world is going to end. He has no qualm with killing if it's justified. Hell, he had no qualm with his dad letting Dr. Gero finish the cyborgs.

Gohan actually likes fighting but his belief that killing was a sin preventing him from liking it, hence why he was excited to fight Dabura to the death because that was after he realised that killing for the right cause is not a sin. He just doesn't prefer fighting over his studies and desire to become a scholar.

[ABED]

Aside from the lackies on Namek? No one. Even if he hadn't killed them, he's tried to kill people before, like Freeza and Vegeta. That's morally the same as succeeding. Okay, can we vere back to Gohan and the Cell Games? This feels like we're just arguing UltimateVegito's thread again.

We don't know if those lackies are dead (unless we go by the guidebooks which you said you reject). I'm not saying that it's absolutely certain Gohan wouldn't kill, but his gentle nature and otherwise lack of evidence of killing does support it. So the interpretation that Gohan is going for a KO victory on any of those occasions is there. This is related to the Cell Games because it's the first time Gohan speaks his mind about killing, rather than just showing his peaceful nature before. I think it's the lack of explicit statements before Cell Games about Gohan's peaceful nature that's causing the disagreement here.

No, we know for certain that Gohan would kill. What do you think he's trying to do when he bounces the Genki Dama at Vegeta? He's trying to kill Vegeta. Are you saying Gohan has something against killing or him killing?

It's still bad storytelling because if you are right, Gohan's aversion to killing is introduced at the 11th hour.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Now you are just making stuff up in order to justify not conceding. You are retconning Gohan's beliefs. Why would Gohan believe fighting Cell was pointless but killing two pissant lackies was justified?

Because those two lackeys were part of a greater cause. Remember that Gohan himself didn't know that his belief was holding him back and thought he was doing what's best by fighting to kill.

Cell is part of a greater cause! How is he not? In fact he's of far greater concern because the stakes are even greater.

Frieza and his empire was a threat to the Nameks and the universe, including Earth. Whereas Cell was only a threat to Earth. The stakes were not greater. Cell also didn't had a strong desire to destroy earth like Frieza had a strong desire to become immortal, otherwise Cell would've destroyed the planet without hosting the tournament. He treated the destruction of Earth like a game (Hence the Cell Games) and Gohan felt that was pointless.

[ABED]

That's just so wrong. Cell is a greater threat than Freeza because he has greater power. If he succeeded, he wouldn't have stopped with Earth. Cell didn't want to destroy Earth, but the stakes were just as high because his aim was to kill everyone. Same goal different tactic. Cell hosted the tournament as amusement, but the end results are the same if he wins. It doesn't matter if he treats it as a game or if he's expanding his empire because death is death. Cell wasn't about to stop at just the Earth, either.

I think UltimateVegito took Gohan's internal dilemma that wasn't introduced until The Cell Games and reverse engineered the prior story to fit that narrative. This was not some carefully planned and plotted out reveal on Toriyama's part.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

The last part of my previous post was a "just saying".

[...]that's not good writing. Why not introduce it at the start of the arc?

That question is coming from the viewpoint that a change had occurred with Gohan. It's unfounded. I believe that it was deliberate for Gohan to be lost in the shuffle for most of the arc. I haven't done any digging into background info, but I believe that Toriyama had intended for Gohan to be "the savior" from the beginnings of his concept and creation of the arc. The details of how the big bad would come into play and other plot details were probably done on the fly, but Gohan was his endgame for that arc from the start, imo. The reveal that he was Goku's winning bet to save the world was supposed to be the surprise. Not any change occurring with the roots of his characters' resolve.

Perfect Cell is North Korea (or powerful communist nation), let's say. No sane, or enlightened, person wants to kill North Koreans, or their government/military leaders. They present themselves as a threat to millions of people time and again over grudges that they've held onto for decades (or more), and have done inhumane things to their own people while provoking others, but other nations (that are in position to do so) still attempt to make compromise and reason with them ("There can be another way"). North Korea allegedly has the capabilities to bring millions and millions down with them if it were to come to it, and the government continues to boast about being a potential danger to anyone on Earth. It's a vicarious position though for me to say. It's okay though, because Dennis Rodman will take care of it and get a city named after him. :p

"There are opponents with which you cannot talk things out", is the message through disciplined Gohan -- the next generation finally becoming fully awakened into realizing what they absolutely have to do to protect all life in their world for all generations to come (No more fun and (Cell) games for your own amusement at the expense of suffering). Toriyama wanted to send a serious message through his silly writing, as he had done in the past, I presume.

[Kanassa]

We've been down this road before and Gohan never believed killing is a sin.

The big issue is Gohan's inner conflict is introduced at the tail end of the 2nd act only to be resolved before the climax of the third act. The revelation he has in order resolve his external problem is created towards the end of the story. Why? Using Jaws as an example, it would be like creating Brody's hatred of water at the end of the story only to resolve the new conflict rather quickly.

It would be like if Brody was suddenly so scared of sharks that the fear of Jaws coming back killed hi-... Wait a minute...

[ABED]

Genki, I think you CAN write a story where the protagonist feels lost in the shuffle at the beginning, but it doesn't work as executed in the Cell arc.

Toriyama wanted to send a serious message through his silly writing, as he had done in the past, I presume.

If that's the case, he didn't do it well.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Genki, I think you CAN write a story where the protagonist feels lost in the shuffle at the beginning, but it doesn't work as executed in the Cell arc.

Gohan was slowly and subtly worked into his Cell Games role. It would completely ruin the surprise moment if the narrator said: "So then, Goku conceded that Gohan was Earth's final hope after witnessing his power..." during the time that they were in the RoSaT. I'm actually shocked that you find this arc so lacking in execution, because I agree mostly with your other non-related posts. It has some flaws, but Gohan at the Cell Games isn't one of them, imo.

Now you have to get on Super. There are a few controversial scenes that happen in that series, and I'm curious about your thoughts. Your mind will be blown up by lack of execution if some scenes during the Cell arc didn't hit your mark.

[TheUltimateVegito]

That's just so wrong. Cell is a greater threat than Freeza because he has greater power. If he succeeded, he wouldn't have stopped with Earth. Cell didn't want to destroy Earth, but the stakes were just as high because his aim was to kill everyone. Same goal different tactic. Cell hosted the tournament as amusement, but the end results are the same if he wins. It doesn't matter if he treats it as a game or if he's expanding his empire because death is death. Cell wasn't about to stop at just the Earth, either.

I think UltimateVegito took Gohan's internal dilemma that wasn't introduced until The Cell Games and reverse engineered the prior story to fit that narrative. This was not some carefully planned and plotted out reveal on Toriyama's part.

Cell hosting the tournament instead of destroying earth straight away showed he didn't take destroying earth seriously, even if the stakes were greater than Frieza. Destroying earth wasn't a goal for Cell but rather something he's doing for amusement. That's why Gohan felt the fight was pointless, because Cell doesn't have a strong desire to destroy earth like Frieza had a strong desire to become immortal.

[ABED]

Cell hosting the tournament instead of destroying earth straight away showed he didn't take destroying earth seriously, even if the stakes were greater than Frieza. Destroying earth wasn't a goal for Cell but rather something he's doing for amusement. That's why Gohan felt the fight was pointless, because Cell doesn't have a strong desire to destroy earth like Frieza had a strong desire to become immortal.

Destroying the planet may not have been his goal, but killing everyone on it was. It wasn't his main goal but it was A goal. I don't see how Cell fighting for amusement makes the fight any more pointless than if he had been out to destroy everyone. Either way he's trying to kill people and that's a battle worth fighting. Freeza wanted to destroy Earth out of revenge. Before that, he wanted it to sell. It doesn't change anything either way. Both Cell and Freeza are trying to murder everyone, how and why doesn't matter.

It has some flaws, but Gohan at the Cell Games isn't one of them, imo.

But keeping that reveal from Gohan? What sense does that make? I understand trying to surprise the reader, but keeping that reveal from Gohan doesn't make sense. A surprise is nice for the audience, but not if you have to sacrifice simple logic to do so. I'd rather writers not sacrifice logic and character for the sake of a twist.

[LuckyCat]

But keeping that reveal from Gohan? What sense does that make? I understand trying to surprise the reader, but keeping that reveal from Gohan doesn't make sense. A surprise is nice for the audience, but not if you have to sacrifice simple logic to do so.

Gohan's basically working as an extension of Goku (using Gohan to defeat Cell is all Goku's plan, after all). It doesn't matter if Gohan knows what his role is until the last moment, as long as Goku knew all along (something that is painfully foreshadowed). Dragon Ball is first and foremost Goku's story. ABED, you often argue yourself how important Goku's role as the main protagonist is, so I feel you're betraying your instincts by relying only on Gohan's inner feelings in your interpretation here. Goku is very clearly present at all stages of the Cell Games fight, making the big calls, including the final kamehameha.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Goku had been preparing Gohan during their time throughout the RoSaT -- his goal was for Gohan to emerge stronger than himself, and by the end, he knew that he was in terms of raw ability. Goku then allowed for Gohan to relax (physically/mentally) and to enjoy with no pressures during downtime after that harsh training had completed. Goku VS Cell served to allow Gohan to become accustomed to Cell's character and fighting abilities as a lead in (from Goku's POV). Before the Cell Games, Goku had confronted Cell in an attempt to gauge his power in comparison to Gohan. I'd have to go back and check to be sure, but perhaps it was there that Goku had determined confidently - within himself - that Gohan's power would see them through. It wasn't necessary to burden Gohan leading up to the event (Gohan would still be in rhythm for taking action, but without unnecessary weight on his mind). Some of the best Goku ever happened during post-heart virus awakening, imo.

I agree LuckyCat.

[ABED]

Yes, he's physically preparing Gohan but there's NO logical reason to keep that from Gohan. The mental gymnastics you are going through to say this all makes sense is mind boggling. Really? You honestly think the most logical thing to not tell them they are going to be the one to defeat the big bad? I'm aware of Goku's strategy to fight Cell and allow Gohan to see how Cell fights, but a better strategy would be to tell Gohan so he's mentally prepared. How is any of that uneccessary weight? Do you think that weight is worse than push all that weight on Gohan's shoulders at the last second? I have a hard time buying that from even Goku.

I feel you're betraying your instincts by relying only on Gohan's inner feelings in your interpretation here.

I don't understand what you mean.