Gohan at the Cell Games

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Continued from another thread. There appears to be an issue with Gohan's behavior at the Cell Games from some -- specifically, in DBZ #182, if I'm understanding correctly. The issue appears to be that from the time that Gohan went into the RoSaT until the episode in question, there is nothing there to bridge it all together, leaving Gohan to appear to some as out-of-character.

I'm on the side that Gohan was totally in-line in his behavior and it's satisfying to see him mature and develop his own mentality. He's never liked fighting for the thrills. He wasn't in-the-thick-of-the-plot nearly to the same degree as others throughout the arc, and did not have much emotional investment or direct connection with Cell himself. This scenario was also unlike past scenarios, with Gohan primarily being relied upon to protecting their world, while his dad and everyone look on. Events that happened from the time Gohan entered the RoSaT until his reveal as Goku's replacement weigh heavily in Gohan's favor, imo. That run of episodes (just under 30 in Z) can't be disregarded.

What's the consensus on this topic? Let Kanzenshuu speak, but keep in mind to be respectful to your fellows. My views come exclusively from the anime adaptation.

Did the writing really need to walk someone through every beat? The narrative was betting on the audience to know Gohan by that point, and where he was coming from. Show, not tell. He didn't need to be actively present throughout the first half of that story -- we know that he exists in the DB world and what his potential is.That narrative was going all over the place with push/pull well before the Cell Games.

The year in isolation in a completely empty environment away from other influences, as well as maturing, can objectively be taken into consideration in Gohan's favor. That is a fact. A different perspective comes with new experiences. A deduction can be made.

This isn't an issue of a subtelty being missed, it's that there's not impetus or rationale for the arc. It's artificial drama. You aren't deducing anything. You are putting a square peg in a round hole. The audience doesn't need its hand held and told what's happening, but we need to be shown a logical reason for such a change. How come no one else had some major change of character in that room?

Children are more malleable, and Gohan didn't have the same emotional connection with the Artificial Human plot as others. Goku is Goku, and Vegeta is Vegeta. F.Trunks had lived a hellish future, and his entire training was set on ensuring that that would not happen in the past (his past). Gohan had a clean slate to function under, as well as the capabilities.


Some context from the source:

Dragon Ball Z #155 "Suddenly Full-Throttle!! The Super Power of a Radiant Vegeta"

[...]

Goku: But then, Gohan, if you can so much as become Super Saiyajin, you'll be much more help to me as a drill partner!... You are my son. Have faith in yourself!... Okay?

Gohan: R-Right!

Goku: Okay... Naturally, I intend to obtain power beyond Super Saiyajin! I want to be stronger than anyone else, after all!... But Gohan, I intend to have you even surpass me!

Gohan: M-Me surpass you, Father?

Goku: That's right. That's my ideal... I'm positive it will happen!

Gohan: I-I wonder...

[...]

Dragon Ball Z #182 "Become Enraged Gohan -- Call Forth Your Dormant Power"

[...]

Gohan: When I fly off the handle, I seem to go beyond my own will, and start fighting hysterically with amazing power... And now that I've trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, I've powered up... Father took that into account... But if it comes to that, I'm sure I will kill you.

[...]

Just for bonus. The reveal of Gohan going way beyond himself in the RoSaT, which could have had additional behavioral impact on his character:

Dragon Ball Z #187 "Something Amiss with Cell!! His Perfect Form Crumbles"

Goku: Sure enough, he's surpassed me... Ever since that moment, he's been beyond the Super Saiyajin barrier. (cue flashback)
You've surpassed me, and put Cell away. Well done!

A lyric from the insert song, "Unmei No Hi ~ Tamashii Tai Tamashii", which encapsulates the main theme of the entire arc.

" I am going to go beyond myself! I'll gather my strength, at last... And blow this darkness away!"

Vital importance to understanding Gohan's behavior also lies in the ten days of enjoying with family leading up to the tournament, and watching as he takes in the battle between Goku VS Perfect Cell. Gohan was calm and relaxed, which can enable one to see more level-headed given a threatening situation. I don't know how that's artificial drama.


Don't agree with this view? Please, provide Kanzenshuu with all of the evidence, or even a small sample, which supports why you feel that Gohan was way out-of-character at the Cell Games. Not: "B-But, Gohan during the Saiyajin arc...", or "b-but, Gohan during the Namek arc...", or "b-but, the Artificial Human arc sucks...". Completely different scenarios, not to mention time gaps.

Seeing from Gohan's POV throughout the story provided me with a good portion of my view, and that's what I feel the narrative was betting on the audience to understand when the moment came. Not only did Gohan provide the audience insight through dialogue, but the visuals of a sampling of past moments to back it up.

Did the narrative provide enough evidence for us to piece Gohan's behavior together, or am I making it up in my own mind? Many others can articulate themselves much better than I.

...

[TheMikado]

I don't understand the problem or what anyone is trying to say. This seems well within Gohans character. He has a killer fighting spirit likely inherited from his dad and being a saiyan. His dominant personality trait is a calm naive kid. However when pushed as he has been multiple times he turns into a cold killing machine, completely involuntarily and against his own will as he himself states internally. Basically Gohan has a Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde complex or hulk/banner, however you want to say it. It's just that Gohans is triggered by necessary.

[LuckyCat]

The main complaint I hear is that Gohan should've had some sort of explanation for why he's suddenly become more passive after he actively fought on Namek. I personally think it's pretty easy to chalk it up to Gohan's maturity from the 5(?) years Gohan fought on Namek to when he faced Cell. I also think Gohan's study and education, which were emphasized in Saiyan and Android saga, led him to approach Cell in a way more enlightened than say, Goku.

[Doctor.]

I also think it's within Gohan's character but it definitely feels very sudden. Toriyama could have integrated this into his characterization earlier, it just comes off as a way to have some drama right at the end of the arc between two characters who have no relationship whatsoever with each-other.

[ABED]

It's not within Gohan's character at that point. His only issue is the inability to bring out his power on command. He doesn't fear fighting bad guys and he damn sure has no issue with taking a life if it's justified. His personality didn't change in the 3 years after Namek. It changed abruptly in the Room of Spirit and Time.

He's never liked fighting for the thrills.

This wasn't about the thrill. Gohan is willing to fight when the situation calls for it and the Cell Games definitely calls for it.

Events that happened from the time Gohan entered the RoSaT until his reveal as Goku's replacement weigh heavily in Gohan's favor, imo. That run of episodes (just under 30 in Z) can't be disregarded.

Yes and they don't show any changes or impetus for change. It's artificial drama because he never had an issue with fighting to protect his friends, but all of the sudden he has cold feet and thinks fighting Cell is pointless? When has he ever had an issue with killing a bad guy who was threatening his friends and family?

Don't agree with this view? Please, provide Kanzenshuu with all of the evidence, or even a small sample, which supports why you feel that Gohan was way out-of-character at the Cell Games. Not: "B-But, Gohan during the Saiyajin arc...", or "b-but, Gohan during the Namek arc...", or "b-but, the Artificial Human arc sucks...". Completely different scenarios, not to mention time gaps.

Those time gaps prove nothing. People do change but he didn't change. His arc was in the Saiyan saga. After that, he was always willing to help. Not one quote you pulled proves anything remotely close to your point. It just shows that Goku wanted Gohan to surpass him.

which could have had additional behavioral impact on his character

That quote has nothing to do with his psychology. You were the one that drew from that comment about his psychological state. You didn't see from Gohan's POV, you read into it what you wanted.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Not one quote you pulled proves anything remotely close to your point. It just shows that Goku wanted Gohan to surpass him.

Those weren't directed specifically at you, and I could've noted a divide. They were to serve as a small reminder as to what was going on with Gohan during that time for all members. It may help recall thoughts without someone having to put on the videos.

which could have had additional behavioral impact on his character

That quote has nothing to do with his psychology. You were the one that drew from that comment about his psychological state. You didn't see from Gohan's POV, you read into it what you wanted.

As I noted, it was just a bonus. And a reveal that Gohan had already tapped into that power before they had emerged from the room. Gohan didn't recall that moment himself, but it was trapped in his subconscious. The quote was just the framework, but it was all about the visual flashback.

[ABED]

As I noted, it was just a bonus. And a reveal that Gohan had already tapped into that power before they had emerged from the room. Gohan didn't recall that moment himself, but it was trapped in his subconscious. The quote was just the framework, but it was all about the visual flashback.

Which simply showed that he tapped into his hidden power, not that his personality changed.

[Lord Beerus]

Gohan's characterization has always been a major issue for me. ABED pointed it out perfectly. He had no issue with killing and fighting the bad guys before but all of sudden when he's a pacifist. It's even more jarring considering the fact that he had no issue with trying to leave Kami's Lookout and fight Cell when he could sense that Piccolo was in trouble and Goku having to force him not to. Why did he suddenly have a distinct change in personality after training with Goku in the ROSAT?

He was focused and determined to getting stronger so that he could defeat Cell, so where did this pacifist nature develop from the end of the training with Goku to the beginning of the Cell Games? We sure as hell don't see any kind of development in that regard from when he stops training with Goku in the ROSAT to when he has to fight Cell.

And may I remind you, this pacifist characteristic that Gohan suddenly gained when fighting Cell in the Cell Games is never brought up again in any capacity after the Cell arc. So Gohan just suddenly had a change of conviction, in a fight that determines the fate of the world, with barely any build-up to it. It's all just terrible writing.

[LuckyCat]

And may I remind you, this pacifist characteristic that Gohan suddenly gained when fighting Cell in the Cell Games is never brought up again in any capacity after the Cell arc.

Not entirely true. It came up earlier than that when Gohan was training with Piccolo and when he was fighting the Saiyans. Gohan being a peaceful guy most of the time is his characterization. Also, not that I like using the Buu Saga as a good example, but Piccolo said something like "all traces of Gohan's softness have been removed" when he's sensing Gohan before he fights Super Buu. I definitely think Toriyama wanted to keep reminding us that Gohan doesn't like fighting, but can be made to fight.

[ABED]

And may I remind you, this pacifist characteristic that Gohan suddenly gained when fighting Cell in the Cell Games is never brought up again in any capacity after the Cell arc.

Not entirely true. It came up earlier than that when Gohan was training with Piccolo and when he was fighting the Saiyans. Gohan being a peaceful guy most of the time is his characterization. Also, not that I like using the Buu Saga as a good example, but Piccolo said something like "all traces of Gohan's softness have been removed" when he's sensing Gohan before he fights Super Buu. I definitely think Toriyama wanted to keep reminding us that Gohan doesn't like fighting, but can be made to fight.

That wasn't pacifism as much as Gohan being a scared child. That was his arc. This was never an issue of Gohan's love of fighting. Gohan is always willing to fight if he has to and at the Cell Games, he had to. The question is why he had to be told it's okay to fight to protect what you care about as if it's some sort of revelation.

[Quintex]

I totally disagree on Gohan's pacifism being sudden. From the very beginning, fighting was never something Gohan enjoyed, but something he did out of necessity. In the Saiyan arc, he became willing to fight in order to protect, and he went into the Freeza arc with that in mind. Saying that Gohan had no problem killing "bad guys" in the past is a bit of a half truth. Gohan had, objectively, never killed ANYONE by the time of the Cell Games. Sure, he knocked out some Freeza soldiers, but the only time he'd ever actually try to kill someone is in a blind rage. And that's what his father expected him to do. This time, he was the headliner. The final line of defense, everyone was counting on him to take Cell down. And he knew that his dad was counting on him to fly off the handle and use the power he's only been able to use in a blind rage, to KILL Cell. Gohan tried to talk Cell down not because he was afraid to fight, but because he was afraid of what he would do. He didn't want it to go down like that. He didn't want to fight to kill, and he didn't want to kill Cell despite the monster he was. He tried to talk Cell down, tried to restrain himself and when Cell sent out his Cell Jrs he froze up. They were going to kill his family and friends to bring out his power, and he doesn't even have enough control over it to bring it out himself to stop them. All these pint up emotions and anxieties finally exploded when he saw Cell actually kill an innocent person who loved life, his repressed rage and hatred unleashed.

I don't see how that's out of character at all. The only thing that seems kind of odd was how Gohan's enraged persona actually stayed for the entirety of his SSJ2 transformation. It only happened in brief flashes earlier and you don't really see it happen again, at least not in the way you see it there. As a SSJ2, the usually docile Gohan couldn't control himself. He wanted to make Cell suffer for what he did instead of just killing him and he paid dearly for it. As a result, you never see him lose control like he does here. I always thought Mystic Gohan making the same mistake due to being cocky rather than losing control of himself was a really weak point in the story. All the build up Gohan had from the beginning really paid off during the Cell saga, but has been a check Toei and Toriyama have failed to cash ever since. Thematically, the Buu saga went back on a lot every arc before it set up, and even what it had been setting up earlier in the arc (Goku saying Gohan is the strongest in the world when he lets loose, Goku saying the new generation is amazing in regards to Goten and Trunks). Not to say it doesn't have it's strong points.

[Son_Gohan]

Gohan never experienced before the kind of growth he had gotten from training in the RoSaT period, not even the 3 years spent training with Goku and Piccolo in the wilderness had been that significant for him. Gohan's actions at the Cell Games was simply a product of his mental, emotional, spiritual development while in the RoSaT; emphasizing how he did not just grow in a physical way.

Many Chinese stories of legend have written about Buddhist/Daoist/Qigong practitioners isolating themselves from earthly experiences for prolonged periods of time for the purposes of spiritual cultivation. When their training is complete, they become more attuned to nature and exhibit the passive/yin qualities just as Gohan had. In Gohan's case, he had become extremely yin as a result, and was consciously suppressing his yang side/Saiyan nature. Considering that Dragonball itself is based on the Chinese story Journey to the West and employs the concepts of chi/qi/ki, I think it's likely Toriyama would be aware of these spiritual concepts and may have been the idea he was going for with Cell Games Gohan.

We see the spiritual aspect emphasized through Goku's character as well, where after his training with Mr. Popo and developing his spirit, he didn't want to kill his enemies from that point on (this was especially prevalent on Namek). The Daizenshuu attributes his telepathic abilities to the training of his spirit. Kaioshin also remarks on Goku having a fine soul/spirit when they first meet.

Seven years after the Cell Games, Gohan is shown to embrace his Saiyan side a bit more, as a fighter of justice, clarifying his pacifism to be merely a transitional phase. But his human/Saiyan nature is not truly in balance until he undergoes the Elder Kaioshin's ritual; completing his spiritual, physical and mental development.

[ABED]

Son_Gohan, your argument goes to the point that you are filling it in on your own. This isn't coming from the story.

after his training with Mr. Popo and developing his spirit, he didn't want to kill his enemies from that point on

That's not a fact, it's something fans inferred. Goku has often spared his enemies, especially if they are strong.

Seven years after the Cell Games, Gohan is shown to embrace his Saiyan side a bit more, as a fighter of justice, clarifying his pacifism to be merely a transitional phase.

Son in other words, his personality shifts based on the needs of the story.

Sure, he knocked out some Freeza soldiers

Pretty sure they were dead.

fighting was never something Gohan enjoyed, but something he did out of necessity.

And fighting Cell wasn't a necessity?

[ekrolo2]

I'll echo my earlier sentiments on this matter: the story gets him from A to Z with nothing in-between to bridge the gap. It entirely leaves it up to you to go make up or find something that's not developed by the story in any way whatsoever to compensate for the non-existent writing.

The Son-Gohan had about it possibly being linked to some Buddhist, spiritual development is a fine idea, the story doesn't do anything with it to make this more than a hypothesis. The ROSAT, even in the anime, is barely looked at as anything more than a way to get strong really, really fast. Neither version of Z gives us any hint or clue as to anything that's happening in Gohan's had at aaalllll during his entire stay there. YOU are the one who has to sit down and grasp at straws to make the development happen.

Nevermind the fact Gohan being reluctant to fight is totally moronic since all he'd done up until that point is fight people stronger than him and after Nappa, that almost never scared him. He isn't afraid to fight Oozaru Vegeta who's in the hundreds of thousands strength level wise, he's not afraid to fight the Ginyu's even after they kick the shit out of Vegeta, he's not afraid to try and murder Freeza twice,....

[90sDBZ]

I've always found Gohan's initial reluctance at the Cell Games believable enough. It actually somewhat echoes Goku's own change in character between King Piccolo and the 23rd Tournament. Before Goku trained with Kami he didn't seem particularly bothered whether he killed bad guys or not, bumping off Red Ribbon Soldiers and even killing Tambourine in cold blood and saying he deserved it. Sparing enemies for selfish reasons aside, Goku let the Ginyu Force live and later scolded Vegeta twice for killing them. He even saved Frieza's life after he'd committed the same crime as Tambourine. That's a pretty big change that isn't given any stated explanation either, but it's naturally attributed to maturity just like with Gohan at the Cell Games.

And it's also worth mentioning that kids can often take after one parent at a young age, but then start to take after the other more as they get older.

[ABED]

Once again with the "Goku changed when he trained with Kami" thing. That's not a change. Goku's simply inconsistent about whom he kills and whom he spares. Killing Tambourine was completely justified. Even if I agreed that he did, going from a teenager to an adult is a far bigger change than 10 months that Gohan spent. You make it seem like a huge amount of time went by in the Room of Spirit and Time. When people change, they change for a reason. Gohan changed for no reason. Chalking it up maturity is you reading into the story.

[Krillin1994]

Once again with the "Goku changed when he trained with Kami" thing. That's not a change. Goku's simply inconsistent about whom he kills and whom he spares. Killing Tambourine was completely justified. Even if I agreed that he did, going from a teenager to an adult is a far bigger change than 10 months that Gohan spent. You make it seem like a huge amount of time went by in the Room of Spirit and Time. When people change, they change for a reason. Gohan changed for no reason. Chalking it up maturity is you reading into the story.

Is Goku going from 15 to 18 much more different than the 10 month change for Gohan? Puberty can affect people pretty strongly and change their personalities drastically.

[ekrolo2]

Once again with the "Goku changed when he trained with Kami" thing. That's not a change. Goku's simply inconsistent about whom he kills and whom he spares. Killing Tambourine was completely justified. Even if I agreed that he did, going from a teenager to an adult is a far bigger change than 10 months that Gohan spent. You make it seem like a huge amount of time went by in the Room of Spirit and Time. When people change, they change for a reason. Gohan changed for no reason. Chalking it up maturity is you reading into the story.

Is Goku going from 15 to 18 much more different than the 10 month change for Gohan? Puberty can affect people pretty strongly and change their personalities drastically.

The problem isn't that Gohan changed, the problem is that the story never spends any time with him being introspective or anything at all to connect things from A to Z. Nobody ever said there aren't good ways for people to infer how the dots connect, the problem is you CAN only infer things because the story treats Gohan like such a massive load of nothing after Namek up until he fights Cell that context necessary to make it work aren't ever part of the story itself, it only exists in things you have to look up and infer on. YOU have to make it up for yourself and though this varies from person to person, I can only give a resounding fuck off to when character stuff hinges on me making things up to connect dots.

[Krillin1994]

Once again with the "Goku changed when he trained with Kami" thing. That's not a change. Goku's simply inconsistent about whom he kills and whom he spares. Killing Tambourine was completely justified. Even if I agreed that he did, going from a teenager to an adult is a far bigger change than 10 months that Gohan spent. You make it seem like a huge amount of time went by in the Room of Spirit and Time. When people change, they change for a reason. Gohan changed for no reason. Chalking it up maturity is you reading into the story.

Is Goku going from 15 to 18 much more different than the 10 month change for Gohan? Puberty can affect people pretty strongly and change their personalities drastically.

The problem isn't that Gohan changed, the problem is that the story never spends any time with him being introspective or anything at all to connect things from A to Z. Nobody ever said there aren't good ways for people to infer how the dots connect, the problem is you CAN only infer things because the story treats Gohan like such a massive load of nothing after Namek up until he fights Cell that context necessary to make it work aren't ever part of the story itself, it only exists in things you have to look up and infer on. YOU have to make it up for yourself and though this varies from person to person, I can only give a resounding fuck off to when character stuff hinges on me making things up to connect dots.

Yeah he does have a massive backseat for the majority of the arc, what would you have done to make it feel more natural?

[ekrolo2]

Yeah he does have a massive backseat for the majority of the arc, what would you have done to make it feel more natural?

Probably give him and Future Trunks an actual, meaningful conversation would be a good enough thing. Despite their history, FT and Gohan don't do anything but acknowledge it at best. Having just a chapter or two with the two of them hanging out and talking to one another to give us more insight into post-Namek Gohan would be more than an effective way to kill two birds with one stone.