LGBT in DragonBall

[Gaffer Tape]

There isn't some magic condition with trans people that makes them naturally more depressed than other people.

Their psychological state isn't a simply matter of discrimination. That's more than a tad reductive. They believe their gender is different than the sex they were born as. That is an inherent psychological issue.

If it sounds like I'm abivalent on this issue, I'm not. I simply think both sides are missing something.

Again, like I've said and like you've said: those who are fit to serve can serve. Those who aren't shouldn't. That might sound reductive too, but it really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

[ABED]

There isn't some magic condition with trans people that makes them naturally more depressed than other people.

Their psychological state isn't a simply matter of discrimination. That's more than a tad reductive. They believe their gender is different than the sex they were born as. That is an inherent psychological issue.

If it sounds like I'm abivalent on this issue, I'm not. I simply think both sides are missing something.

Again, like I've said and like you've said: those who are fit to serve can serve. Those who aren't shouldn't. That might sound reductive too, but it really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

I agree. It's not reductive, it's simple, but many truths are simple.

[JulieYBM]

At work, so I'll keep this terse. I am dissapointed that a bunch of grown ups on a forum to discuss children's cartoons and comics (itself a non traditional life style) are actively burning bridges with their fellow minorities by brushing off their trials. What arrogance and ignorance leads you to think you won't be next? That the Jennifer in a man's body doesn't understand the demeaning you feel when someone shames you for your feelings? Holy cow, folks.

[AgitoZ]

I had already talked briefly about this thread in the chat so I guess I'll reiterate what I basically said there.

Dragon Ball's representations of LGBT people isn't particularly great but it doesn't portray people well in general. If you're looking for good morals or role models to emuluate then you're looking at the wrong franchise.

As for the the two openly gay characters in the series,

Otokosuki isn't shown enough to leave a particularly big impact. And Blue is a pretty fun villain. It's unfortunate what happened with Toei's adaptation. I do have a problem with people saying that it was somehow done because people thought all gay people are pedophiles. Like I don't think that ever crossed anyone at Toei's minds. Someone had mentioned Puri-puri Prisoner as a similar example and said both were somehow propaganda which are just gigantic leaps in logic. At most they were callous portrayals.

I ultimately don't see how fitting in LGBT characters won't feel forced when it's done for the sake of inclusion or representation. In particular some individuals arguments that it will somehow help kids or other such things. I appreciate people sharing their experiences but they they are just anecdotal at best. If a character made a confession that they were gay/transgender/etc in front of a conservative household it's not gonna spark any great discussion. Parents are more likely to just stop having the kids watch the franchise. Any real kind of change will come with changes to education and the kind of environment a family provides to an LGBT person. But that's a much harder and complicated solution which is why I don't see many putting for such proposals.

I'd also be fairly interested in the demographics to those who have provided their thoughts on this thread. Because too me it seems like most non-Americans aren't particularly interested in forcing LGBT characters into the franchise. It's a very first world problem to be demanding for such ineffective social progress. But maybe it's just me.

---

I wanted that to keep on going with this side discussion until a moderator would say to put a stop on that but I guess they must all be asleep or something. But many people do not seem to be engaging people in good faith so I'm just gonna excuse myself from that.

But before I do:

I really don't care if you're annoyed. I don't care if the best argument you can pull out is that I'm somehow being disingenuous. I'm not doing this to get a rise out of you. I feel it's a completely valid comparison to make. If you disagree, maybe you should try debating the merits of my actual argument rather than making up claims that I'm somehow "twisting people's words."

I said that was annoying, I'm not personally annoyed. You are making a lot presumptions here.

What you said was such a false equivalence that I don't particular care to respond seriously to it.

The call for segregation and Jim Crow laws did not emerge from statistics but instead from actual racism and bigotry. Ignoring actual statistics and other facts is what led to getting rid of laws in the US like stop and frisk which actually did bring crime rates down. But because it disproportionately affected black people they had to get rid of it cause it might seem racist. The babying of such populations almost devolves into the soft bigotry of low expectations.Instead of helping communities with high proportions of single motherhood, school drop out rates, gang involvement, it's much easier to signal how not racist lawmakers are than actually solving these problems.

Calling you "disingenuous" was not a argument it was just a simple observation of a general trend in your responses.

[Doctor.]

Have you ever actually met a transgendered person? Or a homosexual, for that matter? There isn't some magic condition with trans people that makes them naturally more depressed than other people. It's because they face the same kinds of discrimination, hatred, and sometimes mortal peril that homosexuals have traditionally faced. I am not so arrogant to presume to know what your own personal struggles are, but if you have never had to worry every minute of every day about losing your job, losing your kids, losing your friends, losing your home, or losing your LIFE over who you are, then count yourself luckier than most transgendered people. Depression and risk of suicide in transgendered people comes from the constant barrage of messages like the one the POTUS just sent out declaring that they are not good enough. They are told every day that they are not good enough. That they are not worthy. That they do not fit into the confines of society. Try living with that and see if depression doesn't come visiting you.

Many, in fact. You strip away any kind of bullying or mocking they receive and give them acceptance, and they're still unsatisfied with their condition, because they simply do not feel comfortable in their own skin, this is a psychological issue at its core, behind the social issues they face. Again, LGB issues and T issues don't mix. I'm bisexual myself, I've never had a problem accepting the fact that I'm bisexual, I've had a problem telling people, those are different things. And I suffer from chronic depression (though not from being bi), you're preaching to the choir. But you're victimizing people who haven't been victims in a long time. "Losing your job, losing your kids, losing your friends, losing your home, losing your life," this doesn't happen. You're creating fiction, they get support more often than not. Depression and risk of suicide in transgendered people comes from the fact that they will never feel good enough regardless of what anyone says, because a complete sex change, their ultimate goal, isn't possible.

Transgendered people want to be treated as fully functioning people. I'm sorry, no, as much as they want to believe they are and as much as their supporters want to tell them that they are, they simply are not. They should be treated as people with mental illnesses and receive the support necessary to appease the symptoms and have them live happy and fulfilling lives but they should absolutely not be allowed to do stuff that will put other people's lives in danger such as being allowed to serve in the military. This is not a matter of freedom. This is a matter of security.

And just in case you think this is where I'm going with this, I'm not saying those who fit into that category of depression and suicide should get a free pass into the military just because I feel society has wronged them. I'm saying that depression is not an inherent part of the transgendered experience, and those who don't have those issues and those who have overcome those issues, have no reason to not be able to serve.

More often than not, they are paired together.

[funrush]

Considering just how many characters are in Dragon Ball, and how even more are introduced every arc, it would be weird if one of them wasn't LGBT.

That said, considering how oddly Dragon Ball treats its characters that are wives, not sure if having a gay character would be done tastefully.

[ABED]

Any real kind of change will come with changes to education and the kind of environment a family provides to an LGBT person. But that's a much harder and complicated solution which is why I don't see many putting for such proposals.

But art does matter. Art can affect people positively and negatively.

[Gaffer Tape]

Transgendered people want to be treated as fully functioning people. I'm sorry, no, as much as they want to believe they are and as much as their supporters want to tell them that they are, they simply are not. They should be treated as people with mental illnesses and receive the support necessary to appease the symptoms and have them live happy and fulfilling lives but they should absolutely not be allowed to do stuff that will put other people's lives in danger such as being allowed to serve in the military. This is not a matter of freedom. This is a matter of security.

Okay, after having read this paragraph, I feel no choice but to get down to the nitty-gritty here. I have to ask:

Do you think that the entire transgender experience is the moment in time where they are transitioning or newly-transitioned? That none of them have ever come to terms with who they are and have managed to become fully-functioning people? Are you using the term "transgender" to refer only to people who are in the midst of transitioning?

OR

Are you saying that the very notion of someone living outside of the standardized boundaries of gender are inherently mentally ill because they feel that way? And that "appeasing the symptoms" means "curing" them of their "delusions"?

Because, I'll be honest, and I apologize if I am misinterpreting, that paragraph really made it sound like the latter. And if that is the case, I'm afraid we have nothing more to discuss.

[Gerky]

Have you ever actually met a transgendered person? Or a homosexual, for that matter? There isn't some magic condition with trans people that makes them naturally more depressed than other people. It's because they face the same kinds of discrimination, hatred, and sometimes mortal peril that homosexuals have traditionally faced. I am not so arrogant to presume to know what your own personal struggles are, but if you have never had to worry every minute of every day about losing your job, losing your kids, losing your friends, losing your home, or losing your LIFE over who you are, then count yourself luckier than most transgendered people. Depression and risk of suicide in transgendered people comes from the constant barrage of messages like the one the POTUS just sent out declaring that they are not good enough. They are told every day that they are not good enough. That they are not worthy. That they do not fit into the confines of society. Try living with that and see if depression doesn't come visiting you.

Many, in fact. You strip away any kind of bullying or mocking they receive and give them acceptance, and they're still unsatisfied with their condition, because they simply do not feel comfortable in their own skin, this is a psychological issue at its core, behind the social issues they face. Again, LGB issues and T issues don't mix. I'm bisexual myself, I've never had a problem accepting the fact that I'm bisexual, I've had a problem telling people, those are different things. And I suffer from chronic depression (though not from being bi), you're preaching to the choir. But you're victimizing people who haven't been victims in a long time. "Losing your job, losing your kids, losing your friends, losing your home, losing your life," this doesn't happen. You're creating fiction, they get support more often than not. Depression and risk of suicide in transgendered people comes from the fact that they will never feel good enough regardless of what anyone says, because a complete sex change, their ultimate goal, isn't possible.

Transgendered people want to be treated as fully functioning people. I'm sorry, no, as much as they want to believe they are and as much as their supporters want to tell them that they are, they simply are not. They should be treated as people with mental illnesses and receive the support necessary to appease the symptoms and have them live happy and fulfilling lives but they should absolutely not be allowed to do stuff that will put other people's lives in danger such as being allowed to serve in the military. This is not a matter of freedom. This is a matter of security. .

Are you kidding me with this hateful bullshit?

[Gaffer Tape]

Many, in fact. You strip away any kind of bullying or mocking they receive and give them acceptance, and they're still unsatisfied with their condition, because they simply do not feel comfortable in their own skin, this is a psychological issue at its core, behind the social issues they face. Again, LGB issues and T issues don't mix. I'm bisexual myself, I've never had a problem accepting the fact that I'm bisexual, I've had a problem telling people, those are different things. And I suffer from chronic depression (though not from being bi), you're preaching to the choir. But you're victimizing people who haven't been victims in a long time. "Losing your job, losing your kids, losing your friends, losing your home, losing your life," this doesn't happen. You're creating fiction, they get support more often than not. Depression and risk of suicide in transgendered people comes from the fact that they will never feel good enough regardless of what anyone says, because a complete sex change, their ultimate goal, isn't possible.

Also, I'm sorry you have had to struggle with depression as well. It's not something anyone should have to go through. I genuinely hope it is something you have been able and will continue to be able to deal with.

[Doctor.]

Transgendered people want to be treated as fully functioning people. I'm sorry, no, as much as they want to believe they are and as much as their supporters want to tell them that they are, they simply are not. They should be treated as people with mental illnesses and receive the support necessary to appease the symptoms and have them live happy and fulfilling lives but they should absolutely not be allowed to do stuff that will put other people's lives in danger such as being allowed to serve in the military. This is not a matter of freedom. This is a matter of security.

Okay, after having read this paragraph, I feel no choice but to get down to the nitty-gritty here. I have to ask:

Do you think that the entire transgender experience is the moment in time where they are transitioning or newly-transitioned? That none of them have ever come to terms with who they are and have managed to become fully-functioning people? Are you using the term "transgender" to refer only to people who are in the midst of transitioning?

OR

Are you saying that the very notion of someone living outside of the standardized boundaries of gender are inherently mentally ill because they feel that way? And that "appeasing the symptoms" means "curing" them of their "delusions"?

Because, I'll be honest, and I apologize if I am misinterpreting, that paragraph really made it sound like the latter. And if that is the case, I'm afraid we have nothing more to discuss.

Define "standardized boundaries of gender," I don't quite get what you mean.

But from your options, I'd say the latter, if you feel like you were born a woman in a man's body or vice-versa, regardless of whether or not you've started to transition, you're inherently mentally ill (I'm not even sure how this is debatable?). But appeasing the symptoms obviously refers to the transition process, not "curing them of their delusions." They have the freedom to do what they want with their bodies, and if the transition process is beneficial to their mental health (as it has been proven), then they should be given the resources to go through with it just like any other mental patient has access to the medicine that makes them feel better. I don't see how this is an unreasonable position to have.

Also, I'm sorry you have had to struggle with depression as well. It's not something anyone should have to go through. I genuinely hope it is something you have been able and will continue to be able to deal with.

I do appreciate it, it has gotten better the past year fortunately enough.

Are you kidding me with this hateful bullshit?

I'm sorry if you perchance identify as trans and felt personally offended, but I'm not the kind to sugarcoat my opinions.

[pacz360]

So how about them gay Dragonball characters?

What's the general consensus on Kale? Lesbian? Straight/asexual with a big sis worship angle?

Pretty much the latter her relationship with caulifla is akin to piccolo,goku relationship with gohan in a sense caulifla believes in kale and kale looks up to caulifla as a big sister she doesn't want to let down

[AgitoZ]

But art does matter. Art can affect people positively and negatively.

Sure, but I think you're overestimating how much it affects people. Having LGBT characters is not gonna cause sweeping changes that will positively affect the lives of LGBT people. At best they'll feel good for a little bit and at worst they'll feel patronized by just having their experience diluted into a token on a show.

So how about them gay Dragonball characters?

What's the general consensus on Kale? Lesbian? Straight/asexual with a big sis worship angle?

I don't particularly find Kale or Kaulifa all that interesting in the first place. And their relationship turning out to be romantic will not do too much to change that to be honest. I also fear for what kind of flak Toei will get if they have the first openly gay women turn into a violent psychopath cause of the girl she likes ignores her for a second.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I'm aware of who the character and what their context to the story is. My comment specifically noted the lead-up to that, which was about the portrayal of gay men. Stereotypes of gay men all being pedophiles and rapists is bullshit propaganda created to further marginalize and spread hatred, which continues to lead to outright murder to this very day. It was harmful bullshit with Blue in the Dragon Ball anime, and it's harmful bullshit in One Punch Man. I like both series, like both characters, and have massive fucking issues beyond all reasonable comprehension with those portrayals.

Well Puri Puri Prisoner isn't a pedophile, at least AFAIK.

[ABED]

Sure, but I think you're overestimating how much it affects people. Having LGBT characters is not gonna cause sweeping changes that will positively affect the lives of LGBT people. At best they'll feel good for a little bit and at worst they'll feel patronized by just having their experience diluted into a token on a show.

I think you underestimate its power. No, a good show with LGBT characters won't cause sweeping changes, but that's not the point. Incrimental changes in a positive direction are still good and it's not a simple transient feeling. Art can affect change and how people view the world.

If there were no shows with LGBT characters, the effect would be similar to having token LGBT characters.

[AgitoZ]

Incrimental changes in a positive direction are still good and it's not a simple transient feeling. Art can affect change and how people view the world.

Art and art movements are always responses to the world and world events. Not the other way around.

[ABED]

Incrimental changes in a positive direction are still good and it's not a simple transient feeling. Art can affect change and how people view the world.

Art and art movements are always responses to the world and world events. Not the other way around.

Art is also a response to something missing. Do you know how many scientists were inspired by science fiction like Star Trek? The show was created because Roddenberry wanted to project his view of the world as it should be.

[AgitoZ]

Art is also a response to something missing. Do you know how many scientists were inspired by science fiction like Star Trek?

I've mentioned Star Trek already in this thread and it's just such an outlier. The show was written around portraying comradery and inclusivity around creeds and races. It was more worried about morality plays than it was about science. Inspiring scientists was incidental. It wasn't until something like Star Trek the Next Generation where they actually started thinking out the scientific basis for plot lines. And again Trek was also done in response to recent progress from the civil rights movement to the space race.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Acknowledging LGBT prejudice in the Middle East would mean acknowledging that there are other societies out there more fucked up than ours and perhaps the issues we face over here are essentially nonproblems.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

[ABED]

Art is also a response to something missing. Do you know how many scientists were inspired by science fiction like Star Trek?

I've mentioned Star Trek already in this thread and it's just such an outlier. The show was written around portraying comradery and inclusivity around creeds and races. It was more worried about morality plays than it was about science. Inspiring scientists was incidental. It wasn't until something like Star Trek the Next Generation where they actually started thinking out the scientific basis for plot lines. And again Trek was also done in response to recent progress from the civil rights movement to the space race.

Splitting hairs. The point is that it can affect change. It doesn't have to be huge shifts, but if it's small change, that's valuable. It's valuable for a young black kid to see a black man star in a great movie or star in a medical drama. It gives a sense of "what one man can do, another can do." Shows like that and show like Buffy and Will & Grace can positively affect things. In my case, watching Will & Grace helped me get over my homophobia when I was a teen. Yes, that's anecdotal, but I'm not alone and even small changes have value.