Do you consider the Boo arc better than Super?

[Trickster]

[spoiler]

If anything, Vegeta has best most consistently well characterized in the show. The only character that Super is keen on restating its development on is Krillin. Everyone else has been fine.

Vegeta's arc was pretty much concluded at the end of DB. He admited Goku was "the number one" and put aside their rivalty. In DBS he acts like a tsundere, sometimes he is concerned about his family and doesn't want to fight (like when Bra was born) and sometimes he is: "Grrr damn Kakarott, I will surpass you!". It's not just inconsistent but incoherent too.

We don't actually know what Vegeta was doing from the end of Majin Boo arc to the final chapter in the manga. He may have still be training with the secret desire of wanting to keep with Goku. There isn't enough context in the original story to suggest that after he admitted that Goku was "number 1", he just resided to that fact and stopped training because he's fine with status quo of being forever second banana to Goku. Vegeta knows that Goku for the moment is his superior but that doesn't equate to Vegeta residing to never wanting to improve himself. That is further emphasized with the Kanzenban ending of the final chapter in the manga where Vegeta states that he still wants to defeat Goku, and by that virtue, he wants to become as strong, if not, stronger than Goku. That desire of wanting to improve himself is still there.

Vegeta brings up wanting to surpass Goku, more than any other character because reaching Goku's strength was understandably the most realistic goal for him given that Goku had become the strongest character in the central cast, considering Beerus had not aligned himself with the Z-Warriors yet and Whis was super vague about how powerful he was.

Also, Vegeta knows that Goku always finds way to improve himself in fashions that Vegeta didn't think was possible. He did it with full power SSJ, he did it with SSJ3 and he does it again with stacking Kaioken, with a multiplier of tenfold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue. He focuses more on Goku because he knows better than anyone else that he's the person, more than anyone other character in the central cast that will find a way to break though all the glass ceilings power he encounters in the most improbable way. And with how much Vegeta got stronger since training with Whis for 6 months he fairly assumed that under the tutelage of Whis that Goku would become monstrously more powerful in a shorter span of time.

When Goku pulled of the Kaioken/Super Saiyan Blue combo Vegeta is understandably annoyed about it given how dangerous the Kaioken technique, especially is when you multiply it, especially on top of another form, and Goku being able to pull it off perfectly, despite the major risks. Plus, given the fact that Whis outright stated that Vegeta was still a step behind Goku, knowing Goku could do such a thing would naturally be a kick in the teeth for him, as for all intents and purposes Vegeta finally reached level pecking with Goku after training as hard as he did and the both of them achieving Super Saiyan Blue. It's not like in the Android/Cell arc where half the time all Vegeta did was angst over Goku being stronger then him and would often do things in spite as a reaction to Goku surpassing him. He was just frustrated more than anything that Goku will essentially always have that ace up his sleeve to keep some kind distance between himself and Vegeta. We even have everyone else in the attendance of the tournament react in either amazement or confusion at what Goku was doing. So it's not as if what Goku was doing with the SSJB/KK deal was any basic trick someone could do which somehow offended Vegeta. It was unique ability that really only Goku could possibly pull off, and Vegeta was understandably shocked and perturbed by what he witnessed Goku. Especially since Vegeta first hand knowledge of the mechanics of the Kaioken technique. Hell, after that whole event Vegeta acts like nothing has happened and just about his business. He's not stewing about the whole SSJB/KK or mentions anything that happened in the Champa arc or talks about wanting to surpass Goku again.

We're talking about a character who is willing to literally throw his life away for a chance to avenge his pride against Goku in the Majin Boo arc. The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. Vegeta doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability and his progression of strength. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth.

[/spoiler]

"The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. Vegeta doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability and his progression of strength. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth."
I do agree with you on this part, but the thing is I don't have the impression that Vegeta is being a FRIENDLY rival to Goku. It looks like he's more like a child, as I said. He becomes angry and focus on surpassing him as if it was his ONLY purpose in life. And, how I said too, this is inconsistent with the scenes with Bra in the beginning of the Power Tournament Saga.
In my point of view, the character's representation in DBGT was much more coherent with the original manga. I consider the kanzeban's retcon you mentioned a HUGE mistake.

[Lord Beerus]

"The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. Vegeta doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability and his progression of strength. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth."
I do agree with you on this part, but the thing is I don't have the impression that Vegeta is being a FRIENDLY rival to Goku. It looks like he's more like a child, as I said. He becomes angry and focus on surpassing him as if it was his ONLY purpose in life. And, how I said too, this is inconsistent with the scenes with Bra in the beginning of the Power Tournament Saga.
In my point of view, the character's representation in DBGT was much more coherent with the original manga. I consider the kanzeban's retcon you mentioned a HUGE mistake.

Vegeta does mention he doesn't want to play second banana to Goku in Episode 2, but it never really becomes anything serious once the BOG arc kicks off. Vegeta only really becomes focused on wanting to surpass Goku after he witnessed Goku literally become a God, and because of that, his perspective of how powerful Goku could get drastically changed. When he was training with Whis he understandably set his goals on surpassing Goku because that was the most realistic goal for him given that Goku had become the strongest character in the central cast, considering Beerus had not aligned himself with the Z-Warriors yet and Whis was super vague about how powerful he was.

[Trickster]

"The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. Vegeta doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability and his progression of strength. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth."
I do agree with you on this part, but the thing is I don't have the impression that Vegeta is being a FRIENDLY rival to Goku. It looks like he's more like a child, as I said. He becomes angry and focus on surpassing him as if it was his ONLY purpose in life. And, how I said too, this is inconsistent with the scenes with Bra in the beginning of the Power Tournament Saga.
In my point of view, the character's representation in DBGT was much more coherent with the original manga. I consider the kanzeban's retcon you mentioned a HUGE mistake.

Vegeta does mention he doesn't want to play second banana to Goku in Episode 2, but it never really becomes anything serious once the BOG arc kicks off. Vegeta only really becomes focused on wanting to surpass Goku after he witnessed Goku literally become a God, and because of that, his perspective of how powerful Goku could get drastically changed. When he was training with Whis he understandably set his goals on surpassing Goku because that was the most realistic goal for him given that Goku had become the strongest character in the central cast, considering Beerus had not aligned himself with the Z-Warriors yet and Whis was super vague about how powerful he was.

I read that. But your argue is not convicing, for me. I don't think a post-Boo Vegeta would act like this.

[ABED]

I read that. But your argue is not convicing, for me. I don't think a post-Boo Vegeta would act like this.

Why not? How would he act?

[Trickster]

I read that. But your argue is not convicing, for me. I don't think a post-Boo Vegeta would act like this.

Why not? How would he act?

He would act as he acts in movies 12 e 13 and in EoZ. They are friends now, he understood his acts in favor of his pride were selfish and inconsequent. He respect Goku as an equal, as a"hook" that inspire him to improve himself always, not as someone who is competing with him.

[ABED]

I read that. But your argue is not convicing, for me. I don't think a post-Boo Vegeta would act like this.

Why not? How would he act?

He would act as he acts in movies 12 e 13 and in EoZ. They are friends now, he understood his acts in favor of his pride were selfish and inconsequent. He respect Goku as an equal, as a"hook" that inspire him to improve himself always, not as someone who is competing with him.

They aren't antithetical. He can be friends with Goku and be competitive. The difference is that he doesn't see Goku being better than him as an afront to his self esteem. Competition is good.

[Trickster]

Why not? How would he act?

He would act as he acts in movies 12 e 13 and in EoZ. They are friends now, he understood his acts in favor of his pride were selfish and inconsequent. He respect Goku as an equal, as a"hook" that inspire him to improve himself always, not as someone who is competing with him.

They aren't antithetical. He can be friends with Goku and be competitive. The difference is that he doesn't see Goku being better than him as an afront to his self esteem. Competition is good.

"The difference is that he doesn't see Goku being better than him as an afront to his self esteem."
In DBS, he does. That's what I'm trying to say here.

[ABED]

I only have RoF to go off of.

[Trickster]

I only have RoF to go off of.

In Super he's worst, but I still think the RoF's representation is not the ideal.

[ABED]

In Super he's worst, but I still think the RoF's representation is not the ideal.

Not the ideal in terms of showing progress or not the ideal in terms of showing his character development?

[Trickster]

In Super he's worst, but I still think the RoF's representation is not the ideal.

Not the ideal in terms of showing progress or not the ideal in terms of showing his character development?

What's the difference?

[ABED]

Sorry for the confusion. By progress I mean how good Vegeta is as a person. By showing character development, I'm referring more to the degree to which he's developed because if he becomes a goody two shoes then it's a step too far, but if having Vegeta have a healthier sense of competition while still remaining a bit annoyed at Goku being better is organic then that's better than having him suddenly become a white meat babyface.

[Trickster]

Sorry for the confusion. By progress I mean how good Vegeta is as a person. By showing character development, I'm referring more to the degree to which he's developed because if he becomes a goody two shoes then it's a step too far, but if having Vegeta have a healthier sense of competition while still remaining a bit annoyed at Goku being better is organic then that's better than having him suddenly become a white meat babyface.

I don't know... I think the scene where Vegeta and Goku were training with Whis (and not being able to use a good strategy together) and the one where Vegeta punches Goku to fight Freeza are both bad representations of his development. Goku's selfishness on this situation is also something that bothers me.

[ABED]

I don't know... I think the scene where Vegeta and Goku were training with Whis (and not being able to use a good strategy together) and the one where Vegeta punches Goku to fight Freeza are both bad representations of his development. Goku's selfishness on this situation is also something that bothers me.

Is he killing mountains of innocent people anymore?

[Lord Frieza]

I enjoy them both equally for their own merits.

To anyone who says stuff like us Kanzenshuu lot are all Super loves......go an read the topics in super properly, spoiler alert: people have different taste here just as anywhere else and quite a few do not like super and will bash literally every episode on a weekly bases.

And to the idea that GT wins one every other forum outside Kanzenshuu, same as above, people have different tastes. Just because you typed "I hate Super" into google with the intent of specifically looking up topics on other sites that are specifically geared towards that ideology to justify your own viewpoint to yourself dose not make everyone outside of Kanzenshuu a Super hater.

[Spencer_23]

Of course I do. It has some classic moments and an interesting villain + a real sense of danger

[Sonofman]

Yes. It's better. Better animation. Better story. Better character development. Better art design. Better power scaling. Better everything. The only good thing Super has to offer is the continuation of the franchise... that's it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Depends of the Arc. Black Arc is up there with Arc like Cell and Piccolo, but FnF was pretty lame. IMO it's as good as Champa Arc, being better than BoGs and FnF but worse than Black Arc.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Yes, I consider the Boo arc to be better than Super. DBS took everything I loved about where the series seemed to be headed and tossed it into the dumpster.

But, I am biased.

[Desassina]

I thought that the Boo arc saga one of the best, second to only the Saiyan saga, and that feeling has remained with Super. I look at it as the Bourne Ultimatum movie after Supremacy provided one ending to Indentity, and the Cell saga was the one to close things off up until that point, which left no choice but to reintroduce the characters and pit them against the villains that seemed out of nowhere. And why is that? It was due to Akira Toriyama feeling like it should have ended with a universe bigger than itself, as of the Freeza saga and then GT, so that space exploration wasn't the only means to travel into danger. There were realms, magical creatures, and the means to bring about other entities - fusion. Super has only continued upon the state of its franchise, to the point of it being a huge saga within the others, where it makes more sense to sub divide it into smaller ones. The Boo saga was the one to leave the franchise in a state of when it could be continued by anything. It was the most self aware and referential, working even as its own product, hence why there is Final Chapters and a new opening for DBZ.