Worst post-revival retcon?

[ABED]

28 Species in all of universe 7

That's not really a retcon, it's just a fact not revealed before. We never saw hundreds of alien races that still exist before. Most of Freeza's men largely came from planets either already destroyed or annihalated.

It's an illogical one. It goes against the idea that Freeza could've created an empire built on the destruction and trading of planets for profit if there's only a few planets in the entire universe that have life.

[precita]

Not if most of the planets were either destroyed or raided of all their natural resources. It seemed like Freeza's army just went from planet to planet constantly conquering it.

Just think of what would have happened to Planet Namek had the main cast never went there. Freeza pretty much exterminated every single Namek on the planet, and that was even before he decided to blow up the planet. So it's logical to assume similar events happened everywhere.

[SaiyanGod117]

Blue hair Trunks.

[FoolsGil]

Not if most of the planets were either destroyed or raided of all their natural resources. It seemed like Freeza's army just went from planet to planet constantly conquering it.

But that's not what it said in story. Raditz clearly states the mission statement of the Freeza Forces: Wipe out planets, sell them to someone else. At least before Minus that's why Goku was on Earth, because someone out there really wanted a blue planet of their own.

[funrush]

Potara fusion being timed instead of permanent. It cheapens Vegito and it brings into question why the protagonists don't just use the potara earrings at literally every opportunity from that point on. Even if not Goku or Vegeta, characters like Piccolo or Gohan. It also makes the fusion dance pointless unless it's a situation where the earrings are unavailable.

Future Trunks having blue hair is almost distracting. I'm not sure why they even did it, the only reason I could see them coming to that is if they planned on having Future Trunks and an adult Present Trunks sharing screentime.

28 Species in all of universe 7

When was this? If there's only 28 species it seems kind of unnecessary to have a God of Destruction IMO.

[ABED]

Not if most of the planets were either destroyed or raided of all their natural resources. It seemed like Freeza's army just went from planet to planet constantly conquering it.

Just think of what would have happened to Planet Namek had the main cast never went there. Freeza pretty much exterminated every single Namek on the planet, and that was even before he decided to blow up the planet. So it's logical to assume similar events happened everywhere.

I have no idea what you're point is in relation to mine. What is there to conquer if there's no life on most of those planets?

[Lord Frieza]

28 Species in all of universe 7

That's not really a retcon, it's just a fact not revealed before. We never saw hundreds of alien races that still exist before. Most of Freeza's men largely came from planets either already destroyed or annihalated.

It's an illogical one. It goes against the idea that Freeza could've created an empire built on the destruction and trading of planets for profit if there's only a few planets in the entire universe that have life.

I'd also like to point out that Goku and Beeur's battle caused shockwaves that nearly destroyed the universe and were shown to destroy planets. Since the event is happening on a universal scale theres a good chance many inhabited planets were destroyed as a result of that battle to. So you can't pin all the blame on Frieza. Also I cannot remember if Kid Buu destroyed planets in the manga or not when looking for Goku and Vegeta.

[ABED]

When was this? Their shockwaves nearly destroyed the universe but Earth is intact?

[Lord Frieza]

When was this? Their shockwaves nearly destroyed the universe but Earth is intact?

Apparently the shock-waves grow in power as they spread outward, earth is at the epicenter so while suffering sum effects is spared the brunt of the damage.

[ABED]

Alright. Obviously DB world is nothing like the real world, but the shockwaves get stronger as they get further from the point of origin?

[ekrolo2]

I love the fact people resort to making Goku into a mass murderer on a universal scale to explain the stupid 28 species thing.

[Lord Frieza]

Alright. Obviously DB world is nothing like the real world, but the shockwaves get stronger as they get further from the point of origin?

That's what Old Kai states. And there is some later president for it. The God of Destrucstion are forbidden to fight because it will cause the destruction of both universe. When Beerus and Champa clash their hakai energy spills out, on a small scale it erased part of the room and during the much more serues battle during the baseball game it began to have a visible effect on the astounding area and the planet. My guess would be that a similar reaction is caused when Beerus's destructive energy clashs with Goku's poorly controlled ssg li causes the phenomena. To do that the to energies would have to feed into each other and increasing the power in an infinite loop. While that cannot occur with natural energy, we are talking about a supernatural energy that belongs to deities, I.e being who are by their very nature supernatural. So there's level of unknown thrown into all this. Also poor writing but poor writing that has its loop holes as I've pointed out.

I love the fact people resort to making Goku into a mass murderer on a universal scale to explain the stupid 28 species thing.

And I love how people miss represent people's ideas and make assumptions rather then asking for clarification. Did I blame Goku? No. Did I ever hint that I felt that was the case? No. So don't put words in my mouth please.

The one to blame was Beerus as he was the one who put Goku in that situation and let it get out of hand. Goku was just trying to adapt to the power while fighting to save his world.

[ekrolo2]

And I love how people miss represent people's ideas and make assumptions rather then asking for clarification. Did I blame Goku? No. Did I ever hint that I felt that was the case? No. So don't put words in my mouth please.

The one to blame was Beerus as he was the one who put Goku in that situation and let it get out of hand. Goku was just trying to adapt to the power while fighting to save his world.

Couple problems with this: the entire thing is used for spectacle and nothing else. Firstly, Goku's intentionally making it worse by choosing to match his blows with Beerus instead of, I don't know, fucking blocking or dodging out of the way. Hell, he even admits that he purposefully CHOSE to match blows so he could practice cancelling out Beerus' power attacks.

Then, nobody cares enough about the destroyed planets later on to fix them. There's no episode or scene with Kibitoshin arriving on Earth and using the DBs to fix everything Goku & Beerus broke so potentially millions of people and entire species are dead & gone and nobody cares. Not even Old Kai who, two arcs later, acts as though Goku's a great stand up guy after he and Beerus nearly destroyed all of U7.

This is the equivalent of James Gordon defending Batman after the masked man in question dropped a nuke on Manhattan.

[Rory]

Has to be Beerus as a whole for me. Not only destroying Freeza's character by making him destroy the planet of the Saiyans on an order as opposed to paranoia from hearsay, but just forcing Freeza to be under the foot of Beerus to begin with.
It never felt natural to me, and felt like a forced retcon. Freeza's motivations always made perfect sense from a character point of view, and meddling with him ruined it entirely.
Just the fact that he's as smarmy as he is doesn't feel as satisfying knowing that he knows Beerus is out there. He's meant to be untouchable, yet we're supposed to buy that he's aware of this destroyer hundreds of times stronger than him?

In fact Vegeta knowing him too is shite. I like Beerus as a character but I really dislike how he was brought into the series as a whole.

Thankfully I can separate this the same way I can separate the Star Wars trilogy from the later trilogy, I know some people have trouble with doing that and it'd drive me nuts.

[Lord Frieza]

And I love how people miss represent people's ideas and make assumptions rather then asking for clarification. Did I blame Goku? No. Did I ever hint that I felt that was the case? No. So don't put words in my mouth please.

The one to blame was Beerus as he was the one who put Goku in that situation and let it get out of hand. Goku was just trying to adapt to the power while fighting to save his world.

Couple problems with this: the entire thing is used for spectacle and nothing else. Firstly, Goku's intentionally making it worse by choosing to match his blows with Beerus instead of, I don't know, fucking blocking or dodging out of the way. Hell, he even admits that he purposefully CHOSE to match blows so he could practice cancelling out Beerus' power attacks.

Then, nobody cares enough about the destroyed planets later on to fix them. There's no episode or scene with Kibitoshin arriving on Earth and using the DBs to fix everything Goku & Beerus broke so potentially millions of people and entire species are dead & gone and nobody cares. Not even Old Kai who, two arcs later, acts as though Goku's a great stand up guy after he and Beerus nearly destroyed all of U7.


This is the equivalent of James Gordon defending Batman after the masked man in question dropped a nuke on Manhattan.

Fair enough to the Goku stuff but then your the who just reminded me of that and that dose make him out to be a mass murdrer. But given Goku's entire character in super would you be surprised? As for everyone else not carrying I put it down to toei not realising just what they did with that scene. Also I don't think even the Namekian balls can fix that mess, plus apart from Whisnone would ever be brace enough to try and undo destruction Beerus had a hand in.

For show or not, if those scenes are depicting the effect the effect the shockwaves have on planets and stars, and those shockwaves are stated to be effecting the entire universe to the point of cosmic annialtion, none of which was ever fixed as you point out, how can it not have decimated a good chunk of U7's population and planets?

[ekrolo2]

And I love how people miss represent people's ideas and make assumptions rather then asking for clarification. Did I blame Goku? No. Did I ever hint that I felt that was the case? No. So don't put words in my mouth please.

The one to blame was Beerus as he was the one who put Goku in that situation and let it get out of hand. Goku was just trying to adapt to the power while fighting to save his world.

Couple problems with this: the entire thing is used for spectacle and nothing else. Firstly, Goku's intentionally making it worse by choosing to match his blows with Beerus instead of, I don't know, fucking blocking or dodging out of the way. Hell, he even admits that he purposefully CHOSE to match blows so he could practice cancelling out Beerus' power attacks.

Then, nobody cares enough about the destroyed planets later on to fix them. There's no episode or scene with Kibitoshin arriving on Earth and using the DBs to fix everything Goku & Beerus broke so potentially millions of people and entire species are dead & gone and nobody cares. Not even Old Kai who, two arcs later, acts as though Goku's a great stand up guy after he and Beerus nearly destroyed all of U7.


This is the equivalent of James Gordon defending Batman after the masked man in question dropped a nuke on Manhattan.

Fair enough to the Goku stuff but then your the who just reminded me of that and that dose make him out to be a mass murdrer. But given Goku's entire character in super would you be surprised? As for everyone else not carrying I put it down to toei not realising just what they did with that scene. Also I don't think even the Namekian balls can fix that mess, plus apart from Whisnone would ever be brace enough to try and undo destruction Beerus had a hand in.

For show or not, if those scenes are depicting the effect the effect the shockwaves have on planets and stars, and those shockwaves are stated to be effecting the entire universe to the point of cosmic annialtion, none of which was ever fixed as you point out, how can it not have decimated a good chunk of U7's population and planets?

How Beerus would act to reversal of his destruction is an interesting topic but since Beerus isn't destroying them as part of his job but because he wants a good fight, I think that'd be a good loophole to fix what he broke. Porunga got amped up in the Boo arc so I think between him and Shenron together, the universe destruction could get fairly well fixed.

I can buy it causing a lot of destruction but annihilating almost all intelligent life across the entirety of U7 seems like an absurd outcome. One too extreme for the show to just ignore but then again, this IS Super so.....

[_Auspex_]

1. Episode Of Bardock
2. DB Minus
3. Beerus being somehow responsible for everything.
4. Potara fusion has a time limit.
5. Goku's and Raditz's mother was a nice, gentle, non-violent saiyan.
6. Vegeta has a little brother who is a wimp.
7. The Pilaf gang are turned into children.
8. Trunks x Mai... a woman who is older than his mother.

[Lord Frieza]

How Beerus would act to reversal of his destruction is an interesting topic but since Beerus isn't destroying them as part of his job but because he wants a good fight, I think that'd be a good loophole to fix what he broke. Porunga got amped up in the Boo arc so I think between him and Shenron together, the universe destruction could get fairly well fixed.

I can buy it causing a lot of destruction but annihilating almost all intelligent life across the entirety of U7 seems like an absurd outcome. One too extreme for the show to just ignore but then again, this IS Super so.....

Sorry had a busy day so its taken me till know to get back to you.

Ok I've done a bit of thinking about this, see what you think. Ok I'll go over old ground and meet you halfway on some stuff first, then talk out some other elements that make the 28 planet idea not so unreasonable.

First port of call and the shortest. The Frieza Force. Frieza, his Father and his army have likely been the death of many civilizations across the universe in their planet trading business as well as taking out perceived threat. Funny though, given that Cold wanted to just blow up earth there's a possibility he's done more damage then his son.

Goku and Beerus's Cosmic Destruction. Gonna meet you half way and say its unlikely that event alone killed off most of the universe. But I think we can agree that an event of that magnitude must have has some casualties, but this could have been overlooked by the Kaioshin due to the circumstances and things could have been a lit worse.

Ok the new stuff.

Beerus himself and not as you'd think. Beerus had already completed his normal cycle of destruction not long before Goku was born. So the era Dragon Ball had taken place in was already recovering from a destruction cycle. If not for his premonition, Beerus would likely have slept for a very long time (he called 39 years just a short nap). When he did awaken he just did his thing but this time in a universe that had not had time to recover, depleting its stock of advanced planets further.

Majin Buu, one part speculation and one part cannot remember cannon. With the threat of Buu looming on the horizon, Shin likely spent much of his time preparing to combat him rather then his role as a creation deity, as a result no new world were created to fill the void left by Beerus. Also Kid Buu did destroy a few planets as well, exacerbating the problem , this is the part I cannot remember if it was cannon.

Champa. A often overlooked factor in this, Champa has been sneaking into U7 for an undefined amount of time, hunting Super Dragon Balls. Since many of the ball become the foundations for planets you have to destroy the outer shell to check, which would kill anyone living on it. So its very likely Champa has killed of a number of developed planets to.

And finally other stuff. With Shin's hands off approach and his focus on Buu, conflicts happen and there are bound to be other bad people with enough power to decimate a world outside of the Frieza force. The events in planets Potaufeu's passed show how worlds and races can be whipped out despite having no connection to the main dragon ball events and Watagash show there are other dangerous aliens running around the universe.

[ekrolo2]

How Beerus would act to reversal of his destruction is an interesting topic but since Beerus isn't destroying them as part of his job but because he wants a good fight, I think that'd be a good loophole to fix what he broke. Porunga got amped up in the Boo arc so I think between him and Shenron together, the universe destruction could get fairly well fixed.

I can buy it causing a lot of destruction but annihilating almost all intelligent life across the entirety of U7 seems like an absurd outcome. One too extreme for the show to just ignore but then again, this IS Super so.....

Sorry had a busy day so its taken me till know to get back to you.

Ok I've done a bit of thinking about this, see what you think. Ok I'll go over old ground and meet you halfway on some stuff first, then talk out some other elements that make the 28 planet idea not so unreasonable.

First port of call and the shortest. The Frieza Force. Frieza, his Father and his army have likely been the death of many civilizations across the universe in their planet trading business as well as taking out perceived threat. Funny though, given that Cold wanted to just blow up earth there's a possibility he's done more damage then his son.

Goku and Beerus's Cosmic Destruction. Gonna meet you half way and say its unlikely that event alone killed off most of the universe. But I think we can agree that an event of that magnitude must have has some casualties, but this could have been overlooked by the Kaioshin due to the circumstances and things could have been a lit worse.

Ok the new stuff.

Beerus himself and not as you'd think. Beerus had already completed his normal cycle of destruction not long before Goku was born. So the era Dragon Ball had taken place in was already recovering from a destruction cycle. If not for his premonition, Beerus would likely have slept for a very long time (he called 39 years just a short nap). When he did awaken he just did his thing but this time in a universe that had not had time to recover, depleting its stock of advanced planets further.

Majin Buu, one part speculation and one part cannot remember cannon. With the threat of Buu looming on the horizon, Shin likely spent much of his time preparing to combat him rather then his role as a creation deity, as a result no new world were created to fill the void left by Beerus. Also Kid Buu did destroy a few planets as well, exacerbating the problem , this is the part I cannot remember if it was cannon.

Champa. A often overlooked factor in this, Champa has been sneaking into U7 for an undefined amount of time, hunting Super Dragon Balls. Since many of the ball become the foundations for planets you have to destroy the outer shell to check, which would kill anyone living on it. So its very likely Champa has killed of a number of developed planets to.

And finally other stuff. With Shin's hands off approach and his focus on Buu, conflicts happen and there are bound to be other bad people with enough power to decimate a world outside of the Frieza force. The events in planets Potaufeu's passed show how worlds and races can be whipped out despite having no connection to the main dragon ball events and Watagash show there are other dangerous aliens running around the universe.

All your factors are fine, they don't change my mind about 28 being way too low of a number. If they said a couple hundred or even a couple thousand, that's a way more believable figure to accept considering the fact how vast a universe is with multitudes of galaxies and solar systems out there. 28 feels like a random number pulled out to emphasize how special Earth is when it's a stupid decision: we know Earth is the only planet worth a fuck.

Everyone naturally strong outside the Earth people gets wiped the fuck out on Namek when Freeza and the Ginyu Force die, everything after that is ancient abominations, petty Gods, machine men,.... from U7. You don't need to make U7 a barely habited wasteland of nothingess to show us everything non-Earth is full of worthless mooks, we already know that from every piece of post Namek storytelling done in the series.

[Lord Frieza]

How Beerus would act to reversal of his destruction is an interesting topic but since Beerus isn't destroying them as part of his job but because he wants a good fight, I think that'd be a good loophole to fix what he broke. Porunga got amped up in the Boo arc so I think between him and Shenron together, the universe destruction could get fairly well fixed.

I can buy it causing a lot of destruction but annihilating almost all intelligent life across the entirety of U7 seems like an absurd outcome. One too extreme for the show to just ignore but then again, this IS Super so.....

Sorry had a busy day so its taken me till know to get back to you.

Ok I've done a bit of thinking about this, see what you think. Ok I'll go over old ground and meet you halfway on some stuff first, then talk out some other elements that make the 28 planet idea not so unreasonable.

First port of call and the shortest. The Frieza Force. Frieza, his Father and his army have likely been the death of many civilizations across the universe in their planet trading business as well as taking out perceived threat. Funny though, given that Cold wanted to just blow up earth there's a possibility he's done more damage then his son.

Goku and Beerus's Cosmic Destruction. Gonna meet you half way and say its unlikely that event alone killed off most of the universe. But I think we can agree that an event of that magnitude must have has some casualties, but this could have been overlooked by the Kaioshin due to the circumstances and things could have been a lit worse.

Ok the new stuff.

Beerus himself and not as you'd think. Beerus had already completed his normal cycle of destruction not long before Goku was born. So the era Dragon Ball had taken place in was already recovering from a destruction cycle. If not for his premonition, Beerus would likely have slept for a very long time (he called 39 years just a short nap). When he did awaken he just did his thing but this time in a universe that had not had time to recover, depleting its stock of advanced planets further.

Majin Buu, one part speculation and one part cannot remember cannon. With the threat of Buu looming on the horizon, Shin likely spent much of his time preparing to combat him rather then his role as a creation deity, as a result no new world were created to fill the void left by Beerus. Also Kid Buu did destroy a few planets as well, exacerbating the problem , this is the part I cannot remember if it was cannon.

Champa. A often overlooked factor in this, Champa has been sneaking into U7 for an undefined amount of time, hunting Super Dragon Balls. Since many of the ball become the foundations for planets you have to destroy the outer shell to check, which would kill anyone living on it. So its very likely Champa has killed of a number of developed planets to.

And finally other stuff. With Shin's hands off approach and his focus on Buu, conflicts happen and there are bound to be other bad people with enough power to decimate a world outside of the Frieza force. The events in planets Potaufeu's passed show how worlds and races can be whipped out despite having no connection to the main dragon ball events and Watagash show there are other dangerous aliens running around the universe.

All your factors are fine, they don't change my mind about 28 being way too low of a number. If they said a couple hundred or even a couple thousand, that's a way more believable figure to accept considering the fact how vast a universe is with multitudes of galaxies and solar systems out there. 28 feels like a random number pulled out to emphasize how special Earth is when it's a stupid decision: we know Earth is the only planet worth a fuck.

Everyone naturally strong outside the Earth people gets wiped the fuck out on Namek when Freeza and the Ginyu Force die, everything after that is ancient abominations, petty Gods, machine men,.... from U7. You don't need to make U7 a barely habited wasteland of nothingess to show us everything non-Earth is full of worthless mooks, we already know that from every piece of post Namek storytelling done in the series.

Fair enough, if thats how you feel about it I cannot force you to change your mind, but at lease we've heard each other out and had a nice discussion about it.