Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:22 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
ABED wrote:I'm hard pressed to think of a fight he's won (that wasn't filler), or how much he contributed to the plot, at least in terms of contributing to achieving the protagonists' goals.
He defeated that invisible man and knew that Oozaru Goku needed to return to his normal state by cutting his tail.
Fair enough about the tail, though that was in the very first arc, but he defeated the Invisible Man with outside help from Kuririn and Roshi's blood. Yeah, it was within the rules, but doesn't speak too well about Yamcha's win-loss record.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by funrush » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 pm

Wouldn't say it's in poor taste because it's less about the death itself and more about how Yamcha just can't catch a break.

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:04 pm

He feels like the Charlie Brown of DB. At least Kuririn got a beautiful wife and daughter. I'll take dying 4 times, even if painfully, if that was the tradeoff over dying fewer times but ending up alone.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:07 pm

ABED wrote:There's a world of difference. A serious character can have comedic moments, but overall still be serious and did I once say he was played for comedy? No, just that there's a difference between being played for comedy and beign a gag character. I don't think he's a gag character, but of all the characters you mentioned, at least of the fighters, he's certainly the one that's most prone to failure which is fodder for laughter.
Again, that's not an example. How is he more comedic in the first arc than other characters? As for the being more prone to failure, I totally agree with you on that. It's one of the failures of the writing of the character. But it's a failure precisely because it's NOT fodder for laughter. That's the point. All of his losses are treated very seriously in the story. I mean, that's his role for the first half of the manga: he's the guy who demonstrates a situation or opponent is serious by losing to it. If all the characters were going, "Pff, it's only Yamucha. It's natural he'd lose," then that wouldn't be the role for him. But, no. Whenever it happens, everyone is shocked that someone as strong as Yamucha could possibly lose. That's literally what they say. Again, I think it's a failure simply because Toriyama doesn't build him up enough that he can sustain that reputation. You can't have the guy constantly lose and have people still be shocked and intimidated by it. But that's the way the series treats it. The series never treats his losses as a joke (outside of the first arc when he's a villain, obviously, but again, everyone else looks stupid in that arc too because it's a comedy), even up to #20 impaling him, which is in an arc that completely assassinates his character.

Cipher made a really good post about this phenomenon in the Yamucha baseball episode on Dragon Ball Super. Personally, I liked it because, while he was treated as comedic fodder, he did get a chance to shine. And I'd almost rather he be silly and goofy than have almost no personality and stand around in the background. It's only when the Universe Survival Arc happened, and the series shat on him with no punchline, and it just became sad rather than funny, that I began to get annoyed. But Cipher's point was that he didn't care for that episode, not because he was some kind of big Yamucha fan, but because the humor was disingenuous to how the character was actually treated in the series. Suddenly, all of his FRIENDS were treating him like he was some kind of big useless joke. You know, as if they'd downloaded all the fandom's memes into their heads. Because that's not at all how the original 1984-1995 series treated him. And it's certainly not how the characters treated him. He had a lot of back luck, but it was played straight. He was never a source of pathetic humor in contrast to other characters.
It's the way he got hit below the belt. He didn't get hit, he landed. The way he did it makes him look incompetent.
But it's also in a fight where he's mostly presented as being very impressive. To take that one moment out of context amid everything else is being intellectually dishonest. It's a funny, embarrassing moment, but the way people talk about it, you'd think that's the only thing that happens in the fight. And it's also removing the context that Shen's entire shtick is built around using his perceived clumsiness to make his opponents do embarrassing things. Yajirobe flat out knocked himself unconscious fighting Shen, so it's not even about Yamucha. Yamucha at least gets to put up a serious fight.

I mean, based on your posts above, I feel like we're on the same page here...
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:44 pm

that's not an example.
I feel no need as I never stated that he was a gag character.
It's one of the failures of the writing of the character. But it's a failure precisely because it's NOT fodder for laughter. That's the point
I don't see that as a failure at all. Not all characters need to be the same. Having a perpetual failure in the cast can be a good thing depending on how it's used. Yamcha was treated as a great martial artist in the beginning because for a while, the gap wasn't nearly as big as it became, but over time, not only did he accrue a hell of a loss record, he also fell way behind the other fighters. He wasn't Goku's best friend like Kuririn, and he wasn't as solemn as Tenshinhan. That's prime for him to become the butt of a joke. It's very telling that his best feats are early in the franchise. Sometimes characters' roles change. If he's now relegated to the butt of the joke, isn't that better than having him be yet another fighter that's fallen behind? It might not happen but a good payoff to all this could be him helping save the day. He could find his footing as the Jimmy Olsen of the series. Ever watch Buffy? One of the best episodes (and my favorite) is an episode called The Zeppo. One of Buffy's friends feels useless in comparison to his friends, but he ends up saving the day without anyone noticing. No one knows what he did, but he does and he can hold his head high because he knows his value.

Yamcha being a loser isn't something fans made up. It's part of the series. It's more than fair that the series hang a lantern on it, just like Toriyama pointed out that Elder Kaioshin's ability to draw out dormant power was not an uncommon power.

I find it weird that you try to make it seem like Yamcha was this super serious great martial artist throughout the series and as though he wasn't constantly losing. What's even weirder is that you think it's disingenuous to not point out his less than stellar track record. If anything, it's better that they do because at some point someone HAS to comment on it. Trying to make Yamcha seem valuable when he hasn't been in years feels like a false note.

You bring up Yajirobe, but he saved Goku's life several times. Cutting off Vegeta's tail saved not only Goku's live but everyone else's, thereby saving the world. That's more noteworthy than anything Yamcha did.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:00 pm

ABED wrote:I find it weird that you try to make it seem like Yamcha was this super serious great martial artist throughout the series and as though he wasn't constantly losing. What's even weirder is that you think it's disingenuous to not point out his less than stellar track record. If anything, it's better that they do because at some point someone HAS to comment on it. Trying to make Yamcha seem valuable when he hasn't been in years feels like a false note.

You bring up Yajirobe, but he saved Goku's life several times. Cutting off Vegeta's tail saved not only Goku's live but everyone else's, thereby saving the world. That's more noteworthy than anything Yamcha did.
I... what? Please re-read what I wrote again because I find it very odd that you're basically saying exactly what I just said but acting like I said the exact opposite. For example, I pointed out Yamucha's poor track record throughout my entire last post, but you're saying I'm trying to claim he did all these awesome things? Where did that even come from? Nothing you're arguing against is anything I even remotely said.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:07 pm

I know what you said. You are saying he was pretty much always portrayed as this great serious martial artist and there's a clear difference with how he's portrayed in Super and how he's treated by this meme.

You however made it out like I said he was a gag character. Hell, you did it twice despite me saying explicitly and clearly several times that I never said he was a gag character. I've just said that his character lends itself to becoming the butt of the joke. That's true regardless of how he was portrayed in the past. All of those things I listed point to him not having much in the way of accomplishments and his previous portrayal as being the butt of a joke . You bringing up characters like Yajirobe and Tenshinhan is not a good argument as both are more competent and are portrayed differently than Yamcha. Tenshinhan is always portrayed as solemn. Yajirobe is fat and lazy but is shown to be capable. Yamcha is neither of those things.
Last edited by ABED on Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:09 pm

My heart hurts in confusion...I think you two agree more than disagree.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:11 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:My heart hurts in confusion...I think you two agree more than disagree.
I'm sure we do agree, but we're not agreeing on the fundamentals. This meme is more than fair. At one time, Yamcha was seen as capable, but the gap widened. It's more than fair that Yamcha's role in the show changes if they want to keep him around.
You can't have the guy constantly lose and have people still be shocked and intimidated by it. But that's the way the series treats it.
And I say that's a failing. It's like death. It becomes so cheap that trying to portray it as super sad feels like a false note. If someone has finally woken up to Yamcha being useless, my response is "what took you so long?"
Last edited by ABED on Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:13 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:My heart hurts in confusion...I think you two agree more than disagree.
I know!!!! Sometimes I think I could quote one of ABED's posts verbatim, remove the quote marks, and pass it off as my own post, and he'd still find something to disagree with. ABED, I feel most of the time we are saying the same things, but you still argue with me over them. Because, again, that's not what I said. And I never said you said he was a gag character. That's what I remember most of all from your original post because that's what made me think we were on the same page! And yet somehow we just end up missing each other, and I've honestly never understood why. I'm sorry that we can't ever seem to communicate, so let's just call the whole thing off.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:19 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:My heart hurts in confusion...I think you two agree more than disagree.
I know!!!! Sometimes I think I could quote one of ABED's posts verbatim, remove the quote marks, and pass it off as my own post, and he'd still find something to disagree with. ABED, I feel most of the time we are saying the same things, but you still argue with me over them. Because, again, that's not what I said. And I never said you said he was a gag character. That's what I remember most of all from your original post because that's what made me think we were on the same page! And yet somehow we just end up missing each other, and I've honestly never understood why. So let's just call the whole thing off.
Perhaps we are on the same page in some respects but I don't think in regards to this meme's treatment of Yamcha. He's played straight (arguable), but at some point it becomes dishonest to do so. How is Super's treatment bad simply because it's different?

I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing. I like a good argument, but I'm not that desperate. We aren't agreeing about this meme.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:35 pm

Yamucha was never treated seriously, though. It's not just in the first arc, it's a consistent thing. He's always making goofy faces or in situations that make him look dumb. Again, there are moments to turn up the seriousness in Dragon Ball (like Yamucha vs. Tenshinhan), but Yamucha was mostly used for goofiness. Why would someone be more uptight about him being used as a gag character as opposed to someone else? It's not like Yamucha went from this glorious fighter to a joke; quite the contrary. He was never hailed to be anything special except for his reputation. Well Oolong also had a reputation in Dragon Ball, but I wouldn't complain that Oolong isn't being treated right.

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:27 am

I don't think so. Even though his losses are meant to be taken seriously, it just happens to so much that it does kind of become funny. I mean, it last all the way until the Cell Saga! The main problem is that Toriyama doesn't give him enough victories to make him credible enough. At least Vegeta gets to score some victory against henchmen before being used as a measuring stick.

But, I do agree with the baseball episode feeling out of place. The characters are too self-aware, to the point it feels like watching an episode of Abridged.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by Imperade » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:55 am

Yamcha was never that good... He was once a pretty good fighter who couldn't talk to girls. Not a terrible character, just not that interesting.

Then he looses almost every fight and becomes just a bland/mediocre character after that. I don't dislike Yamcha, but I do think it's funny that he (even more so then the rest of the Z-gang) just tags along and does virtually nothing besides loosing, and being rejected by Bulma.

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by floofychan333 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:20 pm

I suppose it could be considered as such. In fact, I almost cried when Yamcha died even though I knew it was going to happen. A sad BGM I adore came on too and that just made me go crazy emotionally for some reason. People say this death was the least sad but I think it was pretty tragic, as stupid as Yamcha was being when it happened.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by _Auspex_ » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:30 pm

I wouldn't say that it's in poor taste but it's definitely overdone. The Yamcha meme is like those lame Chuck Norris jokes. It stopped being funny almost 10 years ago.

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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by IntangibleFancy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:36 pm

ABED wrote:
sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:
In any case, is "poor taste" the right term or just the only one the OP could think of?
No. I believe poor taste is right. Watching a character's death (an original character) become their one defining feature is repulsive (now that's overdramatic)
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:03 pm

ABED wrote:He feels like the Charlie Brown of DB. At least Kuririn got a beautiful wife and daughter. I'll take dying 4 times, even if painfully, if that was the tradeoff over dying fewer times but ending up alone.
Yeah, it's kind of hard not feeling bad for the guy.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:59 am

Despite some jokes here and there it has gotten a little out of hand. Sure the baseball episode was kind of a joke but he ended up winning the game for universe 7.

This latest arc though I though felt a little out of place. He is just waiting last minute to be accepted only that he wasn't considered but mostly because he told Gohan he was busy. It just feels like Yamcha who was once a force to be reckoned with is now just a gag. I don't mind gags, but it can be over the top. At least Z filler was his friend like beating Recoome or Olibu.
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Re: Am I the only one who thinks the Yamcha meme is in poor taste?

Post by ABED » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:50 am

When was the last time Yamcha was a force to be reckoned with?
At least Z filler was his friend like beating Recoome or Olibu.
Neither of which makes any sense.
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