Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by sintzu » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:05 am

Captain Strawberry wrote:I thought it became a sort of forgotten point of the series, since they can fly and whatnot
No one used it but it's still there. I think they should it more than once in Super.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:11 am

I've always been an advocate of Goku being a much more layered character than he appears to be. I've talked about it in depth in the past:
[spoiler]Goku is very layered character if you take a deeper look at him.

As a kid, Goku had no qualms about killing his enemies, but as the series progressed and he got older, he started to mellow out more. There's also the fact that Goku, as a child, had no concept of the morality of taking lives when he was blowing up Red Ribbon Army vehicles. He'd lived most of his life alone in the woods. He barely understood death, thinking that when he accidentally killed his grandfather, his grandfather just became the 4-star ball. There are sometimes he killed purposely though such as killing a fleeing Tambourine and later his father King Piccolo to avenge Krillin, not that Tambourine or Piccolo didn't deserve it. Part of his no kill policy came later when many of his worst enemies became his loyal friends, realising that if they could change, anyone could. When he does finally use lethal force against villains like Freeza and Cell, it's because he's realised they're beyond redemption and rotten to the core.

As a Saiyan, it's in his blood to love fighting and combat, and that love for fighting sometimes comes off as a negative to humans, gods, and even other aliens. He is regarded with unease whenever he shows such excitement for battle, with one of Goku's friends even calling him a monster for being so excited about a fight over when the entire planet hangs on the brink of destruction. His love of fighting has also caused him to make decisions that aren't very defensible, or even stupid. Sparing Vegeta's life after their battle just so that he could fight him again, for example, or sending his own son to fight Cell, gambling that Gohan would awaken his hidden power in time to ultimately win, even giving a Senzu Bean to Cell so that Gohan gets a fair match against him, rather than a better chance to win and save the world and abandoning his family and friends to train a child he just met so that child could become more powerful and protect the earth when Goku dies. Further evidence of this is in Battle of Gods when Goku's morality is questioned because of his love of fighting. On the other hand, he doesn't go looking for these kinds of situations, and is content to live a quiet life in the countryside, albeit one involving a lot of physical training. He seems to be aware that these situations find him, which may be part of it. So while Goku is genuinely a kind hearted person, who can make selfless decisions and does have good intentions most of the time, he also can be a horrible judge of character, unable to contain his Saiyan urges for a good battle or challenge, and at times, he can even be a downright selfish bastard, and even openly admits to his selfishness.

Goku also usually expresses himself in the most unfiltered way possible, which can interpreted as rude or impartial, or to even such a degree, that it can be practically seen as non-human. And I honestly don't think he's ever truly completely aware of just how "alien" his responses can be on certain delicate scenarios. Such was when he nonchalantly decided that staying dead was better for everyone without really taking the time to consider how his family would feel about it. Only to come back to life permanently seven years later, and then ten years later, he would leave his family again in a heartbeat, with only the promise of coming back every so often and then saying "Goodbye" to his family and friends, before leaving for an unspecified amount of time to live and train with some child he met. Decisions like that relate back to my points of Goku being selfless as well as very selfish.

Goku's idea of parenting is also a bit skewed. while he'll appropriately go "papa wolf" if anyone messes with his family, Goku doesn't put a lot of priority in actually raising those kids. He's more than happy to ditch his family if the mood strikes him or something else catches his interest. This was implied for years and eventually confirmed by Toriyama to be part of his nature as an alien; Saiyans didn't raise their kids the same way humans do, and children were mostly expected to fend for themselves from a very early age. Goku just doesn't have a nesting instinct. Considering how his sons turned up, it may be possible that Saiyans (including half ones) become relatively independent at an earlier age and thus why his two sons turned out well (as well as how Goku was raised himself.) But at the same time, it can't be denied that Goku does love his wife and children, because it's shown on several occasion that he very much does. He was willing to sacrifice his life to protect his family twice. And choosing to stay dead after dying the second time around was a decision he made as he perceived that without his presence everyone he cared about would be more safe. Not to mention he had the confidence that Gohan would protect the world in his steed should another threat arise as he knew how much stronger Gohan was compared to him. So at the very least, he is a family man than a father in the sense that he's will to go out of his way to ensure his family is safe, as any father would, and welcomes the idea of giving his life to make sure that his family are safe. And always does so with a smile. But at the same token, he doesn't really do much to get invested in what Gohan wants to do in the future and greatly misjudges his character during the Cell Games thinking that he relishes the thrill of combat like he does, when he really doesn't at all. And when the world doesn't need protecting or lives don't need resurrecting, his family do need some kind of financial support to make sure they, ya know, eat and have clean cloths to wear on their backs. And in terms of being a breadwinner father, Goku is really not suited for the role in the slightest. And it really wasn't until Super that we actually saw him actively taking a job and supporting his family financially.

I'd personally say that Goku is very much comparable to classical heroes, much like Hercules, where he is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, but the fashion of which he will go about it very morally ambiguous and questionable. For every time Goku was willing to go out of his way to help people, something that very much more common when he is a child than he is an adult, he often contributes the plot moving in a negative way due to his inherit Saiyan nature of thriving for a challenge and for a fight, even when the circumstances for that can have negative connotations. We see it in the Saiyan arc, we see it in the Freeza arc, we see it in the Cell arc and we see it in the Majin Boo arc. His blood knight characteristics are undeniably a recurring trait when Goku reaches adulthood, and throughout the second half of the story. He's shown to have great love and care for all whom concern him, but being born from the race he was, who were basically a race of blood-thirsty, battle loving, planet conquering space pirates, often lead to his judgement being very clouded, and as a result, his decisions which are often fueled by his eagerness to improve himself and seek a challenge, which can sometimes come back to bite him in the ass and affect those who he cares for. And how handles those scenarios are all the more intriguing because of his unconventional view the world.

Goku is an incredibly flawed and unconventional character. He's not your standard hero/superhero in the slightest. His characteristics and mannerisms just makes him stand out so much from the usual, generic, two dimensional shonen manga/anime protagonists we see these days. And I love him for that more than anything and I hope he continues to act like this.[/spoiler]
Of course everybody has different standards of what counts as complex, but for me, Goku's character fits the criteria.

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:05 pm

This is also a contrast to how kid Goku brutally slaughtered the Red Ribbon and even didn't show mercy to those who were running away (maybe this is part of the reason why he doesn't use the power pole?)
He let peopel run away. Using loaded terms like "slaughtered" makes it seem like he murdered them all in a sadistic way. He didn't. They shot at him and he fought back. If they ran away he let them. He tried to let Black go away but Black tried to kill him instead. Goku is more likely to show a stronger enemy mercy than some lackey.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:28 pm

nickzambuto wrote:Killer post. Let's keep the discussion going.

I agree with all of the separate pieces of your post here, but I just think your definition of round is too specific. I even did some research on the term to refresh myself, and Goku meets all of the qualifications.
I don't have my dictionary of literary terms with me at the moment, but a quick Google search gives us this definition by critic M.H. Abrams (I'd recommend his book "The Mirror and the Lamp" for anyone interested in literary criticism, but that's beyond the point):

"A round character is complex in temperament and motivation and is represented with subtle particularity; such a character therefore is as difficult to describe with any adequacy as a person in real life, and like real persons, is capable of surprising us."

And the person who coined the term round character, E.M. Forster, wrote this: "The test of a round character is whether it is capable of surprising in a convincing way."

I admit that this, and any other definition you may find, is quite vague and it doesn't help non-experts in the field, like us, to understand the subject any better. It makes it hard to categorize characters with these broad definitions.

Even so, let's try.
Most notably, he's defined well enough to experience a wide variety of emotions and a wide variety of reactions, even contradictory or surprising ones, to various situations.
Which of his emotions are surprising? Everything that he has ever experienced or expressed can be tied to his personality, development or motivation to "fight strong guys." I don't think there was any one occasion in the series where I felt like his decision came straight out of left field and only introspection explained why he made his choice. The fact that Dragon Ball is not a series that focuses much on the psyche of its characters already almost prohibits it from having round characters by default. More importantly, there's this part from the definition I posted above: "such a character therefore is as difficult to describe with any adequacy as a person in real life," which absolutely does not apply to Goku, a character very simple to describe in terms of personality and motivation.
Round characters are basically meant to feel like they are actually alive and have their own minds, whereas flat characters only serve one or a few specific roles and therefore can not express the full spectrum of human emotion. We've seen Goku express just about every combination of emotions, even complex ones, and his reactions aren't always what one would expect. This makes it seem like he is alive and actually thinking.
I think what's confusing here, at least for me (probably due to my poor understanding of the subject, I've yet to study characterization and narrative), is that this seems to be a dichotomy in which a character has to fit into either side, whereas Goku doesn't quite exactly fit either definition and seems to be right in the middle. If forced to choose between the two, I'd also learn towards round, due to some of the more subtle aspects of his character that normal/casual fans don't pick up on making it impossible for him to be flat. Perhaps it's possible for a character to be neither, or possible for them to be flat and dynamic at the same time (which seem like contradictory terms, even though the flat/static, round/static and round/dynamic combinations are entirely possible) but I wouldn't know.

In fact, these complications of what it means to be a complex character is what made me scrap my then 15-page long Goku character analysis :P (And there's also a rough version of it floating around the internet by now).

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by Deathbringer » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:14 am

He's not really a complex character, he's simple yet effective just like most of the things in the series. The series was written for kids to be able to understand and yes you can analyse it as intensely as you want if you want to make it seem deeper than it is but Toriyama is a simple man and thats always been reflected in the manga he writes and the characters that are in them.

My problem is when people take one look at the series and see that it's a "hard-core action fighting show" and not much more (which is a perception that I think the original dub is pretty much to blame for) and then assume that all the characters have no character, which is not true at all.

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:31 am

Motivations are usually very simple. It's their actions that are complex. Walter White's motivations are simple, but his character is complex. Simple motivations don't make characters any less capable of surprising people. When writers don't understand that, it can lead to terrible writing. I don't think Goku is complex, but that doesn't make him feel cardboard. He's not a stock character.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by floofychan333 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:48 pm

The original DB was quite dynamic and rounded but simple enough for anybody to understand and easily keep up with the story. DBZ's plots looked more similar in each arc but characters were still complex to a degree. We saw Vegeta and Piccolo change drastically while Goku's transformation from monkey kid in the woods to overpowered hero is impossible to overlook. Gohan's transformation is even more intriguing because it happened exclusively in DBZ; he started as a scared little kid but eventually used his power to save the world and had a truly human side that many characters lack.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by TekTheNinja » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:39 am

To me, Goku in DB is very complex, Goku in DBZ is slightly less complex, Goku in GT isn't very complex at all, and Goku in Super lack any real complexity and sucks as a character. So basically I think he's been losing his complexity as time's been going on.

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:48 am

TekTheNinja wrote:To me, Goku in DB is very complex, Goku in DBZ is slightly less complex, Goku in GT isn't very complex at all, and Goku in Super lack any real complexity and sucks as a character. So basically I think he's been losing his complexity as time's been going on.
Mind explaining why you think Goku becomes less complex between DB and DBZ?
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by TekTheNinja » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:10 pm

ABED wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:To me, Goku in DB is very complex, Goku in DBZ is slightly less complex, Goku in GT isn't very complex at all, and Goku in Super lack any real complexity and sucks as a character. So basically I think he's been losing his complexity as time's been going on.
Mind explaining why you think Goku becomes less complex between DB and DBZ?
Throughout the series after Saiyan genetics are introduced they othertake his character, making him less a a person with a variety of character and emotions and making several actions feel more like they're happening just because he's a saiyan and not because of just being Goku.

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:17 am

TekTheNinja wrote:
ABED wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:To me, Goku in DB is very complex, Goku in DBZ is slightly less complex, Goku in GT isn't very complex at all, and Goku in Super lack any real complexity and sucks as a character. So basically I think he's been losing his complexity as time's been going on.
Mind explaining why you think Goku becomes less complex between DB and DBZ?
Throughout the series after Saiyan genetics are introduced they othertake his character, making him less a a person with a variety of character and emotions and making several actions feel more like they're happening just because he's a saiyan and not because of just being Goku.
That's not true at all. He was always that character who put fighting above all. I think people put too much emphasis on the Saiyan genetics and see things that aren't there or more accurately they think things were added when they were there all along. Even amongst Saiyans, Goku is unique.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by TekTheNinja » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:14 am

ABED wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
ABED wrote: Mind explaining why you think Goku becomes less complex between DB and DBZ?
Throughout the series after Saiyan genetics are introduced they othertake his character, making him less a a person with a variety of character and emotions and making several actions feel more like they're happening just because he's a saiyan and not because of just being Goku.
That's not true at all. He was always that character who put fighting above all. I think people put too much emphasis on the Saiyan genetics and see things that aren't there or more accurately they think things were added when they were there all along. Even amongst Saiyans, Goku is unique.
Well I mean you're actually wrong. Kid Goku never had any of the saiyan pride bullshit or anything like that.

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:58 am

It wasn't "Saiyan" pride, but he did have a warrior's pride. See, this is exactly what I was talking about. You will claim that after he was revealed he was a Saiyan, he became different. He didn't. Fighting was always his number one priority.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by lancerman » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:35 pm

ABED wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
ABED wrote: Mind explaining why you think Goku becomes less complex between DB and DBZ?
Throughout the series after Saiyan genetics are introduced they othertake his character, making him less a a person with a variety of character and emotions and making several actions feel more like they're happening just because he's a saiyan and not because of just being Goku.
That's not true at all. He was always that character who put fighting above all. I think people put too much emphasis on the Saiyan genetics and see things that aren't there or more accurately they think things were added when they were there all along. Even amongst Saiyans, Goku is unique.
In Dragon Ball, Goku was portrayed as someone who loved to fight and was infatuated with the idea of constant improvement and he would go out of his way to fight stronger guys. However, he knew when it was time to not put a good fight over the overall good of the world.

Once they really went into the Saiyan mindset, Goku's desire for fighting became a compulsion he couldn't fully control and he was willing to make stupid miscalculations on the basis of a good fight.

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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by ABED » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:57 pm

In Dragon Ball, Goku was portrayed as someone who loved to fight and was infatuated with the idea of constant improvement and he would go out of his way to fight stronger guys. However, he knew when it was time to not put a good fight over the overall good of the world.
Like when? He let Piccolo go because he wanted to someone around who could keep him motivated.
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Re: Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:52 am

TekTheNinja wrote:To me, Goku in DB is very complex, Goku in DBZ is slightly less complex
I think Goku in DBZ is more complex than the Goku of DB, mainly due to the Android arc.

Goku is indeed a complex character if you ask me, I went in-depth on why in my character analysis on him:
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