Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Funimation to thrive?

[8000 Saiyan]

Funnily enough, in the episode where Kingpin talks about his past, you can see criminals using tommy guns and police officers with regular pistols.

A tommy gun is just an old regular gun...?

Indeed it is. I guess I should have said that the cops were using regular pistols. Corrected that mistake.

[Kokonoe]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

Anime did not become popular here because of toonami and funimation or even in the 90's. Anime has been popular here since the 70's or earlier(Much earlier). All of the 80's saturday morning cartoons were anime. Transformers, thundercats, Not sure about He-man, Those flying bird people. There are more and I can't remember them all. Things like macross and others weren't exactly unknown, they were just not televised all the time and it was too expensive to get them on VHS or whatnot. Japanese animation was not just mainstream it was the most popular stuff in our culture at the time(Beyond just being mainstream). It just wasn't the bubbly anime you see today where everyone has massive oversized heads and whatnot. It was more sci fi and other related genres. I keep seeing lots of kids saying anime this or anime that became popular because the stuff when I first watched it did this. They are all wrong. They lack perspective. Before anime it was sci fi like godzilla which was hugely common if not more in both U.S. and japan and crossed all over(I mean the old sci fi and the newer stuff like . The stuff was rock solid from a cultural perspective. Just not all the same genres. And it all basically was sci fi related. That is how modern anime genres eventually established. that culture was the begining of it and is very old. Before that or with that was stuff like Lord of the rings and the fantasy side. None of it is new and did not just become popular. They were massive crazes and completely mainstream decades or more before. Just not with the current art style, assuming it did not have variations then. I know rainbow bright and other, I believe, purely american animations did have that look. In fact the farther back you go the more likely to get big headed things like Disney and other cartoons plus things like the muppets... I'm not sure where the current art originated. But it's not new either in terms of potential origin or blatant use in Japanese anime.

In fact if you look at the 70's and earlier there is a much larger shared culture and origin of both american and japanese genres and influences. It's only now becoming more isolated as the original community that is mostly the progenitor of it, that is now what you called nerdy, is not actually being defused and is actually disappearing and becoming, "mainstream." That originally was the remaining culture of a greater community spanning science engineering and much older things in our culture that were more related to what made things in our culture in the past. This all used to be better known too as it was a normal thing in culture that was core to culture and because there was more understanding of the origin of that culture as well. AI our education system failed us, to put a stupid phrase to it. Although the education system is fundamental superficial and an end result of all of this and not the thing that makes it.

In fact the sci fi and other things were more popular then. But mainstream was then seen as cheesy pop things made purely for money. which transformers and other things were. But things like Dune were much more popular and influential. And everybody saw them. Just like or even more than everybody saw star wards or star trek. I would say the older stuff was likely more commonly seen but not viewed as popular becuase of how certain things were dealt with then. Namely if it wasn't on tv making money for and primarily from a major network it wasn't considered mainstream, as this was a cheap way to propagandise their network and assets. But those sci fi things were massively known. Like I said, likely more than to day even though it was treated like it wasn't mainstream. We just broke the networks back per say some decades ago. That is why they are all bitchy about copyright now. The copyright argument was always a network survival argument and nothing else. It was never about copyright law or ethics or morality. Just a few peoples greed, pride, and egos. Which has been severely dented since! You are watching that play out today around you still as they try to recover.

The way Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon hit status far exceeds anything you've listed, and if we're throwing Transformers into this, what we got were cartoons not "anime" as what we're so accustomed to. There really is no way to deny Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z's influence on anime in the west and the explosion it caused to make anime more mainstream than it ever was here.

[8000 Saiyan]

I believe there was only one instance of blood in the series (first episode?) and yes, Gordon got shot off-screen. And while laser guns are more powerful than regular ones, the entire point was that they didn't like realistic guns being used. I guess they took the approach that they didn't want it to be realistic and readily-available. Spider-Man the Animated Series had laser guns. Though I will say that Batman The Animated Series pretty much got away with using realistic guns.

You know, it's easy to give them so much flack, but they were covering their asses. Whenever something big happens, who gets blamed? Look at what the GTA series went through because of its violence. When an idiotic kid does a deadly wrestling move to another kid, wrestling gets blamed. You can't blame the networks for trying to avoid this kind of blame. You can't ever say, "Well this kid shot another kid with a laser gun because he saw it in a Spider-Man cartoon," because that could literally never happen. But punching each other in the face, fully possible to be mimicked. Blame society, not the networks.

You know, speaking of society, they did have something to do with censorship in cartoons. There was a woman called Peggy Charren, who spearheaded a major movement (via her watchdog group Action for Children's Television or ACT) to censor cartoons during the 1970s and 1980s. In essence, she was pretty much telling and bullying networks that animated shows couldn't show violence and "anti-social behavior". If this stuff had never happened, stuff like TMNT, Transformers or G.I. Joe wouldn't have been censored, and we could have gotten Batman: The Animated Series way before the 90's.

[KBABZ]

Ironic really. Back in the day a book was written called Seduction of the Innocent that blamed comics for turning children and youths into delinquents, which spawned the Comics Code Authority that gave birth to the campy Silver Age of Comics. The irony comes in where the author regretted writing the book, because the censorship of violence meant that hose acts weren't portrayed with realistic consequences.

[Kokonoe]

A lot of people simply don't like change. They prefer what they grew up with. While it's certainly optimal to have great music and acting to go along with a great story, people will still watch if it doesn't check off all those boxes. DBZ had cheap music and horrible acting in the beginning. The overwhelming consensus when season 3 aired was that the new cast was terrible. This is anecdotal, but it does come from my experience talking to people at school.

No matter how many times you attempt to assert your view as fact, or undermine people's preference of the original Funi dubbing over Kai, it won't change the fact that there is a audience out there that enjoy it for reasons you cannot seem to perceive without said belittling. You can respond to every single post on this forum at any opportunity that the dubbing gets praised, you may try to come up with every excuse imaginable to why fans of the Funi dub like these things due to bias, but once again, it will never change that there are pros beyond what you feel personally that appeal to others about it.

Nostalgia be damned.

I don't see how anyone could think that the original Funimation dub is better than Kai's dub. Atrocious voice acting and corny one-liners that aren't even of the good type. People should be thankful that Schemmel and Sabat don't suck anymore.

Here's the fantastic part, it doesn't really matter if you can or can't. The thing is is that there are people that do enjoy the dub, don't think it's atrocious, and don't share your mindset. People don't need to be thankful for what you're saying when people already enjoy what is being shown for what it is, not for what it isn't or for memories of the past.

Really in all honesty, people like you should get over themselves. Same goes for everyone else who tries to come up with an excuse of why someone is biased for enjoying what they enjoy. If you enjoy the original Japanese, fantastic, don't try to spin a billion different reasons why some else's viewpoint is invalid with petty reasoning.

[ABED]

Here's the fantastic part, it doesn't really matter if you can or can't. The thing is is that there are people that do enjoy the dub, don't think it's atrocious, and don't share your mindset. People don't need to be thankful for what you're saying when people already enjoy what is being shown for what it is, not for what it isn't or for memories of the past.

Really in all honesty, people like you should get over themselves. Same goes for everyone else who tries to come up with an excuse of why someone is biased for enjoying what they enjoy. If you enjoy the original Japanese, fantastic, don't try to spin a billion different reasons why some else's viewpoint is invalid with petty reasoning.

No one is saying your opinion is invalid simply because someone enjoys it out of nostalgia. And no one is saying you can't enjoy something that is filled with performances of VERY green voice actors. That's objectively and verifiably true. Not one person is saying you can't enjoy whatever it is you want to enjoy, just simply acknowledge the facts for what they are. The in-house cast wasn't chosen for their talent in the beginning.

[Anonymous Friend]

I believe there was only one instance of blood in the series (first episode?) and yes, Gordon got shot off-screen. And while laser guns are more powerful than regular ones, the entire point was that they didn't like realistic guns being used. I guess they took the approach that they didn't want it to be realistic and readily-available. Spider-Man the Animated Series had laser guns. Though I will say that Batman The Animated Series pretty much got away with using realistic guns.

You know, it's easy to give them so much flack, but they were covering their asses. Whenever something big happens, who gets blamed? Look at what the GTA series went through because of its violence. When an idiotic kid does a deadly wrestling move to another kid, wrestling gets blamed. You can't blame the networks for trying to avoid this kind of blame. You can't ever say, "Well this kid shot another kid with a laser gun because he saw it in a Spider-Man cartoon," because that could literally never happen. But punching each other in the face, fully possible to be mimicked. Blame society, not the networks.

You know, speaking of society, they did have something to do with censorship in cartoons. There was a woman called Peggy Charren, who spearheaded a major movement (via her watchdog group Action for Children's Television or ACT) to censor cartoons during the 1970s and 1980s. In essence, she was pretty much telling and bullying networks that animated shows couldn't show violence and "anti-social behavior". If this stuff had never happened, stuff like TMNT, Transformers or G.I. Joe wouldn't have been censored, and we could have gotten Batman: The Animated Series way before the 90's.

What a lot of people don't even realize is that we received a lot of our most creative and beat work because someone had to work around censorships, and not when people are just allowed to do whatever they want.

Back to Dragon Ball ...

I see a lot of people throwing around the word "popular" in regards to anime and Dragonball in the 80s and 90s in the US. The US market is very different than most other markets in the world. The fact that there's a very large mix of other cultures that form a totally new culture enforces this. Before the rise of Dragonball and Pokemon in the last 90s, there were only a few shows that were getting aired that people knew as Japanimation. Speed Racer, Sailor Moon, and Volton we're the biggest ones.And even as "popular" as they might have seemed, they were still extremely niche. Children's programming at the time was more about what toys you can sell than about the actual show on television. At least until Cartoon Network came around. And in all honesty I probably never would have caught Dragonball Z if I never had started watching Cartoons Network thanks to stumbling across The What a Cartoon Show randomly.

I wonder, though ...

If Funi had not gotten Dragonball when they did, how many more companies and how many more years would it have taken to catch on in the US.

[Bardo117]

Now that I think about it, I was already a fan several years before I caught this show in English so maybe it didn't really need FUNI. But it sure did build a very peculiar fanbase.

[8000 Saiyan]

I believe there was only one instance of blood in the series (first episode?) and yes, Gordon got shot off-screen. And while laser guns are more powerful than regular ones, the entire point was that they didn't like realistic guns being used. I guess they took the approach that they didn't want it to be realistic and readily-available. Spider-Man the Animated Series had laser guns. Though I will say that Batman The Animated Series pretty much got away with using realistic guns.

You know, it's easy to give them so much flack, but they were covering their asses. Whenever something big happens, who gets blamed? Look at what the GTA series went through because of its violence. When an idiotic kid does a deadly wrestling move to another kid, wrestling gets blamed. You can't blame the networks for trying to avoid this kind of blame. You can't ever say, "Well this kid shot another kid with a laser gun because he saw it in a Spider-Man cartoon," because that could literally never happen. But punching each other in the face, fully possible to be mimicked. Blame society, not the networks.

You know, speaking of society, they did have something to do with censorship in cartoons. There was a woman called Peggy Charren, who spearheaded a major movement (via her watchdog group Action for Children's Television or ACT) to censor cartoons during the 1970s and 1980s. In essence, she was pretty much telling and bullying networks that animated shows couldn't show violence and "anti-social behavior". If this stuff had never happened, stuff like TMNT, Transformers or G.I. Joe wouldn't have been censored, and we could have gotten Batman: The Animated Series way before the 90's.

What a lot of people don't even realize is that we received alot of our most creative and best work because someone had to work around censorships, and not when people are just allowed to do whatever they want.
Back to Dragon Ball ...

I see a lot of people throwing around the word "popular" in regards to anime and Dragonball in the 80s and 90s in the US. The US market is very different than most other markets in the world. The fact that there's a very large mix of other cultures that form a totally new culture enforces this. Before the rise of Dragonball and Pokemon in the last 90s, there were only a few shows that were getting aired that people knew as Japanimation. Speed Racer, Sailor Moon, and Volton we're the biggest ones.And even as "popular" as they might have seemed, they were still extremely niche. Children's programming at the time was more about what toys you can sell than about the actual show on television. At least until Cartoon Network came around. And in all honesty I probably never would have caught Dragonball Z if I never had started watching Cartoons Network thanks to stumbling across The What a Cartoon Show randomly.

I wonder, though ...

If Funi had not gotten Dragonball when they did, how many more companies and how many more years would it have taken to catch on in the US.

What shows are you referring to when you say that? Shows like Batman TAS or Gargoyles?

[Tian]

I always wondered one thing about the early FUNi dub. Did Toei ever watched it? and if so, what was their opinion?

[8000 Saiyan]

I always wondered one thing about the early FUNi dub. Did Toei ever watched it? and if so, what was their opinion?

I don't know if they watched it or not. Probably didn't care about the dub.

[Bardo117]

I always wondered one thing about the early FUNi dub. Did Toei ever watched it? and if so, what was their opinion?

I don't know if they watched it or not. Probably didn't care about the dub.

Being honest, I don't think they care or even watch their own dub... So long as money is coming in

[8000 Saiyan]

Sure, the voice acting and the music along with the story made Batman TAS such a great show, but I doubt audiences kept watching Batman because of the voice actors and the music.

You can have the greatest story but if the acting and music are terrable then it'll fall apart and vice versa. All of it comes together to make a great show that keeps people coming back to it.

There's a good amount of fans here who don't like Kai because of the music so it's a very important part of any show. Same thing with the voice acting, a lot of people who don't like anything about Kai will watch it just because of how good the voices are.

Bad acting and bad music doesn't necessarily mean that your show is going to fail. Despite the bad acting and bad music in season 3, DBZ was a success in America.

[8000 Saiyan]

I believe there was only one instance of blood in the series (first episode?) and yes, Gordon got shot off-screen. And while laser guns are more powerful than regular ones, the entire point was that they didn't like realistic guns being used. I guess they took the approach that they didn't want it to be realistic and readily-available. Spider-Man the Animated Series had laser guns. Though I will say that Batman The Animated Series pretty much got away with using realistic guns.

You know, it's easy to give them so much flack, but they were covering their asses. Whenever something big happens, who gets blamed? Look at what the GTA series went through because of its violence. When an idiotic kid does a deadly wrestling move to another kid, wrestling gets blamed. You can't blame the networks for trying to avoid this kind of blame. You can't ever say, "Well this kid shot another kid with a laser gun because he saw it in a Spider-Man cartoon," because that could literally never happen. But punching each other in the face, fully possible to be mimicked. Blame society, not the networks.

You know, speaking of society, they did have something to do with censorship in cartoons. There was a woman called Peggy Charren, who spearheaded a major movement (via her watchdog group Action for Children's Television or ACT) to censor cartoons during the 1970s and 1980s. In essence, she was pretty much telling and bullying networks that animated shows couldn't show violence and "anti-social behavior". If this stuff had never happened, stuff like TMNT, Transformers or G.I. Joe wouldn't have been censored, and we could have gotten Batman: The Animated Series way before the 90's.

What a lot of people don't even realize is that we received a lot of our most creative and beat work because someone had to work around censorships, and not when people are just allowed to do whatever they want.

Back to Dragon Ball ...

I see a lot of people throwing around the word "popular" in regards to anime and Dragonball in the 80s and 90s in the US. The US market is very different than most other markets in the world. The fact that there's a very large mix of other cultures that form a totally new culture enforces this. Before the rise of Dragonball and Pokemon in the last 90s, there were only a few shows that were getting aired that people knew as Japanimation. Speed Racer, Sailor Moon, and Volton we're the biggest ones.And even as "popular" as they might have seemed, they were still extremely niche. Children's programming at the time was more about what toys you can sell than about the actual show on television. At least until Cartoon Network came around. And in all honesty I probably never would have caught Dragonball Z if I never had started watching Cartoons Network thanks to stumbling across The What a Cartoon Show randomly.

I wonder, though ...

If Funi had not gotten Dragonball when they did, how many more companies and how many more years would it have taken to catch on in the US.

A company could have always gotten the rights the year Funimation did.

[VegettoEX]

FUNimation was hardly the only company in the running for the series at the time. We have ancient anecdotal evidence from other companies actively pursuing it, and it seems like U.S. Renditions may have actually already had it at some point prior to FUNimation.

[Bardo117]

The show obviously has SOMETHING special to it for it to have such incredible and independent fanbases all over the world. Several Countries have obsessions and great fandom for the show, strongly indicating that it would've been a success either way.

[Hellspawn28]

FUNimation was hardly the only company in the running for the series at the time. We have ancient anecdotal evidence from other companies actively pursuing it, and it seems like U.S. Renditions may have actually already had it at some point prior to FUNimation.

I wish we got a DB release from U.S Renditions because they did release good anime and they did give us some good dubs. We would probably have got Tom Fahn voicing Goku in a U.S Renditions dub of Dragon Ball in the early-mid 90's.

[8000 Saiyan]

FUNimation was hardly the only company in the running for the series at the time. We have ancient anecdotal evidence from other companies actively pursuing it, and it seems like U.S. Renditions may have actually already had it at some point prior to FUNimation.

I wish we got a DB release from U.S Renditions because they release good anime and they did give us some good dubs. We would probably have got Tom Fahn voicing Goku in a U.S Renditions dub of Dragon Ball in the early-mid 90's.

I would have loved if Steve Blum had voiced either Vegeta, Piccolo or Frieza in such a dub.

[Ripper 30]

FUNimation was hardly the only company in the running for the series at the time. We have ancient anecdotal evidence from other companies actively pursuing it, and it seems like U.S. Renditions may have actually already had it at some point prior to FUNimation.

I wish we got a DB release from U.S Renditions because they release good anime and they did give us some good dubs. We would probably have got Tom Fahn voicing Goku in a U.S Renditions dub of Dragon Ball in the early-mid 90's.

I would have loved if Steve Blum had voiced either Vegeta, Piccolo or Frieza in such a dub.

Piccolo suits him better than the other two.

[8000 Saiyan]

I wish we got a DB release from U.S Renditions because they release good anime and they did give us some good dubs. We would probably have got Tom Fahn voicing Goku in a U.S Renditions dub of Dragon Ball in the early-mid 90's.

I would have loved if Steve Blum had voiced either Vegeta, Piccolo or Frieza in such a dub.

Piccolo suits him better than the other two.

I think Blum would have fitted Frieza like a glove by using his Orochimaru voice from the Naruto dub. Can't think of anyone else in that small LA talent pool that could have pulled off Frieza other than Blum back in those days. If LA got to dub DBZ in the 90's, then they could have benefitted from having a huge budget to hire someone like Mark Hamill to voice Frieza. But unfortunately that wouldn't have happened.