Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Funimation to thrive?

[NitroEX]

According to who? I could ask the same question of you. Yes, you did make it clear, but I'm disagreeing with you.

But when you disagree with what I have to say with an absolute statement such as "Tone and age have nothing to do each other" and you don't elaborate on your opinion whatsoever, it comes across as you stating a fact when in reality it isn't one. Not everything I say is concrete fact but I do know quite a bit about the voice over industry and the shows in question to have an informed opinion on why they do some of the things they do. I'm also explaining my position rather than just shooting down people's argument with no reason given.

No, I'm disagreeing that age is any factor in the tone of a show. Of course the actor's voice will affect the show, but how does that affect tone? Actors can play multiple tones.

If actors had no effect on the tone of the show they wouldn't bother recasting at all, they'd just have the same actor for new incarnations and rely solely on a change of performance. It should be rather obvious why that's not a workable solution.

Obviously, an actor can alter performance to suit a different tone but an actor's range has its natural limits, you can't put them out of their depth and expect them to thrive in a role that wasn't made for them (or more broadly, the character archetype(s) that they specialize in). Once again, think of the Chris Barnes/Drake Bell Spider-Man example, Drake's voice is just naturally high pitched and very youthful sounding, he basically sounds like what you'd expect a stereotypical American teenager to sound like and that's not a voice he puts on when voicing Spider-Man either (go watch an interview with him). If you put an actor with his specialized voice in a version such as the 90s series you're bound to have an immediate mismatch, and not just because of Parker's design either, his voice wouldn't compliment the serious tone and more traditionally heroic portrayal that that show requires. Even with a serious line read you're never going to take him as seriously as you would a Chris Barnes and that's got more to do with human psychology and how we attribute different traits to younger or older sounding voices, it's not always about a simple change in performance.

If the lead casting isn't working in tandem with all the other chosen elements then it isn't achieving the director's intended tone.

[ABED]

I did elaborate. Tone and age don't have anything to do with each other. You can be funny and lighthearted and older. Conversely, you can the opposite and be younger. I did give reasons, plenty of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong because it seems like you are equating personality with age. What exactly is a stereotypical American teen? And why should a director limit themselves to casting using stereotypes?

[KBABZ]

Should I point out that Nozawa was 50 when she was cast as Kid Goku for the anime in 1986? She's cracked past 80 now and still plays the roles of all three Saiyan Son members in their childhoods.

[8000 Saiyan]

Should I point out that Nozawa was 50 when she was cast as Kid Goku for the anime in 1986? She's cracked past 80 now and still plays the roles of all three Saiyan Son members in their childhoods.

No, you don't need to.

This is why Kyle Herbert does a way better job at doing Kiba from Naruto because he is character who tries to act cool but gohan is pretty naive and innocent so Ocean dub voice fits him better.

I wouldn't mind if Ocean dubbed Buu Kai Saga just to hear Swaile as Gohan again. He was one of the standouts of the Westwood dub.

[Ripper 30]

Should I point out that Nozawa was 50 when she was cast as Kid Goku for the anime in 1986? She's cracked past 80 now and still plays the roles of all three Saiyan Son members in their childhoods.

No, you don't need to.

This is why Kyle Herbert does a way better job at doing Kiba from Naruto because he is character who tries to act cool but gohan is pretty naive and innocent so Ocean dub voice fits him better.

I wouldn't mind if Ocean dubbed Buu Kai Saga just to hear Swaile as Gohan again. He was one of the standouts of the Westwood dub.

It probably won't happen.

[8000 Saiyan]

Should I point out that Nozawa was 50 when she was cast as Kid Goku for the anime in 1986? She's cracked past 80 now and still plays the roles of all three Saiyan Son members in their childhoods.

No, you don't need to.

This is why Kyle Herbert does a way better job at doing Kiba from Naruto because he is character who tries to act cool but gohan is pretty naive and innocent so Ocean dub voice fits him better.

I wouldn't mind if Ocean dubbed Buu Kai Saga just to hear Swaile as Gohan again. He was one of the standouts of the Westwood dub.

It probably won't happen.

I know that it won't likely happen, but it's just wishful thinking. He'd be even better than Hebert IMO.

[Ripper 30]

No, you don't need to.


I wouldn't mind if Ocean dubbed Buu Kai Saga just to hear Swaile as Gohan again. He was one of the standouts of the Westwood dub.

It probably won't happen.

I know that it won't likely happen, but it's just wishful thinking. He'd be even better than Hebert IMO.

Agreed.

[Bardo117]

I'm sure it would've found an audience, but it would've been a weaker fanbase if it weren't for FUNI.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'm sure it would've found an audience, but it would've been a weaker fanbase if it weren't for FUNI.

Why do you think it would have had a weaker fanbase?

[Arugela]

Didn't an older dragon ball morning cartoon exist before funimation or cartoon network were a part of it. I thought they picked it up later. Specifically the original morning cartoon for dragon ball and not Z. This was probably mid 90's. I think the original spread is because it was on TV in any form where it could be watched. Most people couldn't afford videos. Now with the internet though that would not be as hard. If only they had done more early internet video releases back then. That could have been awesome for anime releases. Even if 56k was common they could have managed it. Would have been awesome to have them release the original Japanese episodes along side the dubs or even before. Of course a computer then had hdd's with only 256 megs and no good storage.... That might have been why. I don't think HDD's were cheaper than VHS for storage. But people could have hooked up VHS to the computer and simply been instructed to record onto a VHS on purchase.. You could definitely used a TV with a VHS as a monitor and recorded through that with software at the time remotely or through similar means. It could have been done if they wanted too! >< I think some companies might have done that actually. Although it was rare. I think the bigger problem might have been if there was sufficient online payment systems at the time. I think things were still generally payed for via mail at the time. until MMO's became common... Or am I mistaken?! My memory is fuzzy.

Plus there were various video player software back then.. They could have probably done an online showing like they do now but it would have taken longer to watch. People would have waited though. There were many dreams of online TV back then. Before stupid TV companies would have thought of it as competition and used it with their services as an extra means to do things instead of a competing one necessarily. Never understood that mentality. If you take the services to their extremes they have lots of uses for all service types if they don't act like asses... People still had better imaginations then and there were a lot more ways to use those different networks in peoples minds still. Could have been awesome.

[Kokonoe]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

[ABED]

when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

I know producers like to think that's true, but the universal appeal boils down to the simplicity of the story, the animation, the fighting, and the sense of whimsy.

it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became.

Power Rangers isn't a good example because while it uses Sentai footage, it is for the most part, its own thing. Faulconer's score had NOTHING to do with the success of the show. The show was already a success when it got to Toonami. Its success is what lead to there being a third season to begin with.

Pokémon's formula for success was very different from DBZ's. It's the collection aspect and the successful video game.

[Kokonoe]

when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

I know producers like to think that's true, but the universal appeal boils down to the simplicity of the story, the animation, the fighting, and the sense of whimsy.

I don't speak for producers, I'm speaking about my take on that time period and the audience of said period. Either or not you agree or disagree is up to the individual, but this is my take on the circumstances.

Power Rangers isn't a good example because while it uses Sentai footage, it is for the most part, its own thing. Faulconer's score had NOTHING to do with the success of the show. The show was already a success when it got to Toonami. Its success is what lead to there being a third season to begin with.

Pokémon's formula for success was very different from DBZ's. It's the collection aspect and the successful video game.

The anime is the cause for Pokemon's success here in the west. It's one of those things where you check out the game because of the show, and stay because the game was actually entertaining. The Pokemon anime is one of the most effective marketing tools, and in the US, it lead to Pokemon's success. The theme of the show is what gets people captivated before even watching it.

And Faulconer Production's OST very much so lead to the success of the show to a degree. The music played appealed to the common american demographic and made the show more exciting for said audience.

[ABED]

The anime is the cause for Pokemon's success here in the west. It's one of those things where you check out the game because of the show, and stay because the game was actually entertaining. The Pokemon anime is one of the most effective marketing tools, and in the US, it lead to Pokemon's success. The theme of the show is what gets people captivated before even watching it.

Or it's the other way around. It's the game that get people to watch the show. The theme is memorable but people aren't going to tune in week after week for years just to hear a theme song.

And Faulconer Production's OST very much so lead to the success of the show to a degree.

It absolutely didn't lead. It was cheap and the show was already a success. If the cheap and terrible voice acting didn't dissuade people from watching, nothing was going to. You overestimate the effect of the music.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

And Faulconer Production's OST very much so lead to the success of the show to a degree. The music played appealed to the common american demographic and made the show more exciting for said audience.

The series exploded all over the world with the Kikuchi score. I've never seen anything to suggest the same wouldn't have happened had Faulconer not been hired. In fact the first two seasons of Z did just fine without Faulconer.

[8000 Saiyan]

Yes. The cast, music, marketing, timing, etc. were critical in DB's massive success in America. You could say another company could've done it but you could say that about anything so it shouldn't take away from what Funi did for the franchise.

I'd say the reason why Dragon Ball was such a massive success in America was because of the stories, not because of the voice actors and music. I highly doubt voice actors and music are what makes a cartoon or anime a success. You don't really believe Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill were the reason why Batman: The Animated Series was a success?

[ABED]

Yes. The cast, music, marketing, timing, etc. were critical in DB's massive success in America. You could say another company could've done it but you could say that about anything so it shouldn't take away from what Funi did for the franchise.

I'd say the reason why Dragon Ball was such a massive success in America was because of the stories, not because of the voice actors and music. I highly doubt voice actors and music are what makes a cartoon or anime a success. You don't really believe Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill were the reason why Batman: The Animated Series was a success?

I certainly do think the quality of that show was the reason why it was so popular. Batman may have gotten people to watch the show, but the quality of the series is what kept them watching and why its legacy endures.

[Anonymous Friend]

Funimation altered the shit out of Toriyama and Toei's work. The implied point of contention embedded in the question is: were Funimation's radical alterations necessary for Dragon Ball to thrive in the US?

So the analogies don't really work.

So the answer is either:

Seeing as the series did not catch on with such a large audience after multiple other launches, whatever and whenever Funi launched it, it gained prominence.

Or

In spite of all Funi did to it, it's quality still shown through and the show became a hit.

Personally, I think we have to look at it from a different perspective. What about the straight Japanese version would have deterred mainstream US audiences?

For me though, when the first episode aired on Toonami, I was a huge Street Fighter and comic book fan. This show had people flying around and throwing fireballs and such. I was hooked immediately from that alone. You would think that many, many other kids would have as well. But, consider this: I've come across so many fans of Kaiju and giant monster movies who turned their noses at Power Rangers back in the day to only realize much later in life that they would have been totally in to it.

[8000 Saiyan]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

I don't think Americanizing a Japanese show was necessary for Americans to gravitate towards Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball could have had an accurate dub with the Kikuchi score and it would have been a success in North America. The same thing happened in Europe (although the scripts of the European dubs weren't that accurate) and Latin America.

[ABED]

Fighting cross cultural boundaries.