Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Funimation to thrive?

[sintzu]

You don't really believe Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill were the reason why Batman: The Animated Series was a success?

They were among many reasons with the music, look, story, marketing being the others.

[KBABZ]

Aside from pure narm hindsight comedic value, I've never liked or understood America-nizing a show to have elements kids are familiar with, like the infamous Pokémon incidence where a rice ball is painted over with a footlong sub of the day (to say nothing about jelly doughnuts). One of the main aspects of Dragon Ball that appeals to me is the way that it's set in a very Chinese-themed world with many other asian influences, and it's permanence through OG Dragon Ball is one of the reasons why I like that portion of the series over Z, which is mainly set away from that sort of thing until they return to Earth.

I suppose another angle to look at the question is this: was there another company around that was capable of dubbing Dragon Ball like Funimation? This is a genuine question as I'm not as familiar with all the dubbing studios and their capabilities as you guys are, so I'm interested in the answers!

[8000 Saiyan]

Aside from pure narm hindsight comedic value, I've never liked or understood America-nizing a show to have elements kids are familiar with, like the infamous Pokémon incidence where a rice ball is painted over with a footlong sub of the day (to say nothing about jelly doughnuts). One of the main aspects of Dragon Ball that appeals to me is the way that it's set in a very Chinese-themed world with many other asian influences, and it's permanence through OG Dragon Ball is one of the reasons why I like that portion of the series over Z, which is mainly set away from that sort of thing until they return to Earth.

I suppose another angle to look at the question is this: was there another company around that was capable of dubbing Dragon Ball like Funimation? This is a genuine question as I'm not as familiar with all the dubbing studios and their capabilities as you guys are, so I'm interested in the answers!

4Kids and DiC would have dubbed Dragon Ball just like Funimation did: they would have Americanized the show.

Despite their practices, 4Kids and DiC employed actors that were pretty good at their jobs.

[Kokonoe]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

I don't think Americanizing a Japanese show was necessary for Americans to gravitate towards Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball could have had an accurate dub with the Kikuchi score and it would have been a success in North America. The same thing happened in Europe (although the scripts of the European dubs weren't that accurate) and Latin America.

That's where we differ alas. In that time period where anime was still nowhere near what it is today, when it was this somewhat niche product (at least in comparison to now), I do feel the changes such as the OST and the voice actors greatly affected the appeal of the show here in USA. As someone who grew up with this series, even when it was Ocean dubbing, the show didn't really gain the appeal it did with Ocean's dub as it did with Funimation's dub. Although Dragon Ball on it's own is enough to be successful in it's own right just about anywhere, I do recall in school all of my friends and the other children in general going on about how "bad ass" the music was, and would point out moments like Goku Super Saiyan 3 music and Vegeta Super Saiyan.

And Faulconer Production's OST very much so lead to the success of the show to a degree. The music played appealed to the common american demographic and made the show more exciting for said audience.

The series exploded all over the world with the Kikuchi score. I've never seen anything to suggest the same wouldn't have happened had Faulconer not been hired. In fact the first two seasons of Z did just fine without Faulconer.

It didn't really "explode" here until Funimation's dub did it not? At the same time, comparing the rest of the world to USA in terms of a demographic doesn't really work because we very much have own our audience per se and we tend to differ compared to other countries. Even though Dragon Ball has a universal appeal, it doesn't mean it'll achieve success over here on quite the level it did.

[ABED]

It didn't really "explode" here until Funimation's dub did it not? At the same time, comparing the rest of the world to USA in terms of a demographic doesn't really work because we very much have own our audience per se and we tend to differ compared to other countries. Even though Dragon Ball has a universal appeal, it doesn't mean it'll achieve success over here on quite the level it did.

1 - It didn't explode as much as the audience grew over time. If it exploded, it was when it got on Cartoon Network.
2 - The US is unique, but so are other countries.
3 - The rest of the world isn't all the same except for the US. Each has its own demographics and tastes.

even when it was Ocean dubbing, the show didn't really gain the appeal it did with Ocean's dub as it did with Funimation's dub.

Ad Hoc ergo propter hoc. It gained appeal before the in house dub. Yes, it gained even more appeal in season 3, but that's because the story was at a high point. Are you really suggesting that people didn't like the Ocean dub and found a dub by an inexperienced cast doing horrible imitations of the previous one to be better?

[Ripper 30]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

Dragon Ball Z is known for its fights, villains, power ups, attacks, Super Saiyan not voices or Music. So, even if Viz Media had dubbed it still it would be a big hit because it was different from the American Cartoons that western fans at that time were used to. Infact, Naruto has an accurate dub and still a famous in US.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It didn't really "explode" here until Funimation's dub did it not? At the same time, comparing the rest of the world to USA in terms of a demographic doesn't really work because we very much have own our audience per se and we tend to differ compared to other countries. Even though Dragon Ball has a universal appeal, it doesn't mean it'll achieve success over here on quite the level it did.

As has been stated already, the inhouse dub beginning with season 3 was the result of high ratings for the first two seasons with the Ocean cast. The series might have became more popular from that point but that's because it was the point we started to get all the memorable moments, not because of the US having its own tastes. The later Ocean dub, which aired in Canada and other countries used Funimation's scripts, the Americanized Superman Goku and different replacement scores but the show was still massive. Dragon Ball is universally loved despite the replacement music, not because of it.

[DragonBallKing]

It didn't really "explode" here until Funimation's dub did it not? At the same time, comparing the rest of the world to USA in terms of a demographic doesn't really work because we very much have own our audience per se and we tend to differ compared to other countries. Even though Dragon Ball has a universal appeal, it doesn't mean it'll achieve success over here on quite the level it did.

As has been stated already, the inhouse dub beginning with season 3 was the result of high ratings for the first two seasons with the Ocean cast. The series might have became more popular from that point but that's because it was the point we started to get all the memorable moments, not because of the US having its own tastes. The later Ocean dub, which aired in Canada and other countries used Funimation's scripts, the Americanized Superman Goku and different replacement scores but the show was still massive. Dragon Ball is universally loved despite the replacement music, not because of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason DBZ exploded around the time Funi started dubbing it was due to It's evening weekday timeslot on Toonami. I really don't think It matters who got the rights to dub the show, the key to DBZ's massive boom in the states was the right time and right place.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It didn't really "explode" here until Funimation's dub did it not? At the same time, comparing the rest of the world to USA in terms of a demographic doesn't really work because we very much have own our audience per se and we tend to differ compared to other countries. Even though Dragon Ball has a universal appeal, it doesn't mean it'll achieve success over here on quite the level it did.

As has been stated already, the inhouse dub beginning with season 3 was the result of high ratings for the first two seasons with the Ocean cast. The series might have became more popular from that point but that's because it was the point we started to get all the memorable moments, not because of the US having its own tastes. The later Ocean dub, which aired in Canada and other countries used Funimation's scripts, the Americanized Superman Goku and different replacement scores but the show was still massive. Dragon Ball is universally loved despite the replacement music, not because of it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only reason DBZ exploded around the time Funi started dubbing it was due to It's evening weekday timeslot on Toonami. I really don't think It matters who got the rights to dub the show, the key to DBZ's massive boom in the states was the right time and right place.

Exactly my point. The show did well in other English-speaking countries with the Keenlyside and Mitchell score not the Faulconer score because of similar timeslots. It's all about how the show is promoted and made available to the target demographic, that is something we can always give Toonami credit for. Whether or not Funimation "improved" the show by making it more American is irrelevant because it was a success independent of that.

[KBABZ]

As someone who has no authority on what happened back then, it's amusing to see all these conflicting arguments and opinions about it as if the days of the Ocean dub and whatnot were old Arthurian tales.

"History became legend, legend became myth..."

[8000 Saiyan]

You don't really believe Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill were the reason why Batman: The Animated Series was a success?

They were among many reasons with the music, look, story, marketing being the others.

Sure, the voice acting and the music along with the story made Batman TAS such a great show, but I doubt audiences kept watching Batman because of the voice actors and the music.

[sintzu]

Sure, the voice acting and the music along with the story made Batman TAS such a great show, but I doubt audiences kept watching Batman because of the voice actors and the music.

You can have the greatest story but if the acting and music are terrable then it'll fall apart and vice versa. All of it comes together to make a great show that keeps people coming back to it.

There's a good amount of fans here who don't like Kai because of the music so it's a very important part of any show. Same thing with the voice acting, a lot of people who don't like anything about Kai will watch it just because of how good the voices are.

[ABED]

Sure, the voice acting and the music along with the story made Batman TAS such a great show, but I doubt audiences kept watching Batman because of the voice actors and the music.

You can have the greatest story but if the acting and music are terrable then it'll fall apart and vice versa. All of it comes together to make a great show that keeps people coming back to it.

There's a good amount of fans here who don't like Kai because of the music so it's a very important part of any show. Same thing with the voice acting, a lot of people who don't like anything about Kai will watch it just because of how good the voices are.

A lot of people simply don't like change. They prefer what they grew up with. While it's certainly optimal to have great music and acting to go along with a great story, people will still watch if it doesn't check off all those boxes. DBZ had cheap music and horrible acting in the beginning. The overwhelming consensus when season 3 aired was that the new cast was terrible. This is anecdotal, but it does come from my experience talking to people at school.

[Kokonoe]

Sure, the voice acting and the music along with the story made Batman TAS such a great show, but I doubt audiences kept watching Batman because of the voice actors and the music.

You can have the greatest story but if the acting and music are terrable then it'll fall apart and vice versa. All of it comes together to make a great show that keeps people coming back to it.

There's a good amount of fans here who don't like Kai because of the music so it's a very important part of any show. Same thing with the voice acting, a lot of people who don't like anything about Kai will watch it just because of how good the voices are.

A lot of people simply don't like change. They prefer what they grew up with. While it's certainly optimal to have great music and acting to go along with a great story, people will still watch if it doesn't check off all those boxes. DBZ had cheap music and horrible acting in the beginning. The overwhelming consensus when season 3 aired was that the new cast was terrible. This is anecdotal, but it does come from my experience talking to people at school.

No matter how many times you attempt to assert your view as fact, or undermine people's preference of the original Funi dubbing over Kai, it won't change the fact that there is a audience out there that enjoy it for reasons you cannot seem to perceive without said belittling. You can respond to every single post on this forum at any opportunity that the dubbing gets praised, you may try to come up with every excuse imaginable to why fans of the Funi dub like these things due to bias, but once again, it will never change that there are pros beyond what you feel personally that appeal to others about it.

Nostalgia be damned.

[8000 Saiyan]

You can have the greatest story but if the acting and music are terrable then it'll fall apart and vice versa. All of it comes together to make a great show that keeps people coming back to it.

There's a good amount of fans here who don't like Kai because of the music so it's a very important part of any show. Same thing with the voice acting, a lot of people who don't like anything about Kai will watch it just because of how good the voices are.

A lot of people simply don't like change. They prefer what they grew up with. While it's certainly optimal to have great music and acting to go along with a great story, people will still watch if it doesn't check off all those boxes. DBZ had cheap music and horrible acting in the beginning. The overwhelming consensus when season 3 aired was that the new cast was terrible. This is anecdotal, but it does come from my experience talking to people at school.

No matter how many times you attempt to assert your view as fact, or undermine people's preference of the original Funi dubbing over Kai, it won't change the fact that there is a audience out there that enjoy it for reasons you cannot seem to perceive without said belittling. You can respond to every single post on this forum at any opportunity that the dubbing gets praised, you may try to come up with every excuse imaginable to why fans of the Funi dub like these things due to bias, but once again, it will never change that there are pros beyond what you feel personally that appeal to others about it.

Nostalgia be damned.

I don't see how anyone could think that the original Funimation dub is better than Kai's dub. Atrocious voice acting and corny one-liners that aren't even of the good type. People should be thankful that Schemmel and Sabat don't suck anymore.

[KBABZ]

While I personally prefer the Kai dub over the 90s ones, I do understand that other people just relate to and are familiar with that particular version of the show, and would prefer to stick with it rather than go to a different dub like Kai where everything is different, because that's not what they remember watching every weekday at 4.

[Arugela]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

Anime did not become popular here because of toonami and funimation or even in the 90's. Anime has been popular here since the 70's or earlier(Much earlier). All of the 80's saturday morning cartoons were anime. Transformers, thundercats, Not sure about He-man, Those flying bird people. There are more and I can't remember them all. Things like macross and others weren't exactly unknown, they were just not televised all the time and it was too expensive to get them on VHS or whatnot. Japanese animation was not just mainstream it was the most popular stuff in our culture at the time(Beyond just being mainstream). It just wasn't the bubbly anime you see today where everyone has massive oversized heads and whatnot. It was more sci fi and other related genres. I keep seeing lots of kids saying anime this or anime that became popular because the stuff when I first watched it did this. They are all wrong. They lack perspective. Before anime it was sci fi like godzilla which was hugely common if not more in both U.S. and japan and crossed all over(I mean the old sci fi and the newer stuff like . The stuff was rock solid from a cultural perspective. Just not all the same genres. And it all basically was sci fi related. That is how modern anime genres eventually established. that culture was the begining of it and is very old. Before that or with that was stuff like Lord of the rings and the fantasy side. None of it is new and did not just become popular. They were massive crazes and completely mainstream decades or more before. Just not with the current art style, assuming it did not have variations then. I know rainbow bright and other, I believe, purely american animations did have that look. In fact the farther back you go the more likely to get big headed things like Disney and other cartoons plus things like the muppets... I'm not sure where the current art originated. But it's not new either in terms of potential origin or blatant use in Japanese anime.

In fact if you look at the 70's and earlier there is a much larger shared culture and origin of both american and japanese genres and influences. It's only now becoming more isolated as the original community that is mostly the progenitor of it, that is now what you called nerdy, is not actually being defused and is actually disappearing and becoming, "mainstream." That originally was the remaining culture of a greater community spanning science engineering and much older things in our culture that were more related to what made things in our culture in the past. This all used to be better known too as it was a normal thing in culture that was core to culture and because there was more understanding of the origin of that culture as well. AI our education system failed us, to put a stupid phrase to it. Although the education system is fundamental superficial and an end result of all of this and not the thing that makes it.

In fact the sci fi and other things were more popular then. But mainstream was then seen as cheesy pop things made purely for money. which transformers and other things were. But things like Dune were much more popular and influential. And everybody saw them. Just like or even more than everybody saw star wards or star trek. I would say the older stuff was likely more commonly seen but not viewed as popular becuase of how certain things were dealt with then. Namely if it wasn't on tv making money for and primarily from a major network it wasn't considered mainstream, as this was a cheap way to propagandise their network and assets. But those sci fi things were massively known. Like I said, likely more than to day even though it was treated like it wasn't mainstream. We just broke the networks back per say some decades ago. That is why they are all bitchy about copyright now. The copyright argument was always a network survival argument and nothing else. It was never about copyright law or ethics or morality. Just a few peoples greed, pride, and egos. Which has been severely dented since! You are watching that play out today around you still as they try to recover.

[thaman91]

There's also another category of people (who you wouldn't think exist because I guess they're not as vocal online) like myself who like both the Z dub and Kai dub, but for different reasons.

While I do think that the Z dub's acting is noticeably green in the early episodes when the 'in-house' cast began, I quite like a lot of the cheesy dialogue and even like the characters' way of speaking (more informal, less precise) more than I do in the Kai dub. I also mostly enjoy how the music is scored & edited to picture (aside from some instances where it's overdone) and the development of various themes and leitmotifs throughout the episodes; the music (the Faulconer music, anyway) really gives the entire thing a sense of operatic cohesiveness.

With the Kai dub, despite some issues I had with the precise dialogue not sounding as natural, I liked that we were able to get more information about the characters; I learned way more about the characters in the Kai dub than I did in the old Z dub, just because of the aforementioned precise nature of the dialogue. I also enjoyed the more orchestral-sounding music (well....Yamamoto's anyway, less so with Sumitomo's). And I like a lot of the acting too. Someone like Christopher Sabat has come a long way and it's really evident when you compare Z-dub Piccolo with Kai-dub Piccolo.

[8000 Saiyan]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

Anime did not become popular here because of toonami and funimation or even in the 90's. Anime has been popular here since the 70's or earlier(Much earlier). All of the 80's saturday morning cartoons were anime. Transformers, thundercats, Not sure about He-man, Those flying bird people. There are more and I can't remember them all. Things like macross and others weren't exactly unknown, they were just not televised all the time and it was too expensive to get them on VHS or whatnot. Japanese animation was not just mainstream it was the most popular stuff in our culture at the time(Beyond just being mainstream). It just wasn't the bubbly anime you see today where everyone has massive oversized heads and whatnot. It was more sci fi and other related genres. I keep seeing lots of kids saying anime this or anime that became popular because the stuff when I first watched it did this. They are all wrong. They lack perspective. Before anime it was sci fi like godzilla which was hugely common if not more in both U.S. and japan and crossed all over(I mean the old sci fi and the newer stuff like . The stuff was rock solid from a cultural perspective. Just not all the same genres. And it all basically was sci fi related. That is how modern anime genres eventually established. that culture was the begining of it and is very old. Before that or with that was stuff like Lord of the rings and the fantasy side. None of it is new and did not just become popular. They were massive crazes and completely mainstream decades or more before. Just not with the current art style, assuming it did not have variations then. I know rainbow bright and other, I beleive, purely american animations did have that look. In fact the farther back you go the more likely to get big headed things like Disney and other cartoons plus things like the muppets... I'm not sure where the current art originated. But it's not new either in terms of potential origin or blatant use in Japanese anime.

In fact if you look at the 70's and earlier there is a much larger shared culture and origin of both american and japanese genres and influences. It's only now becoming more isolated as the original community that is mostly the progenitor of it, that is now what you called nerdy, is not actually being defused and is actually disappearing and becoming, "mainstream." That originally was the remaining culture of a greater community spanning science engineering and much older things in our culture that were more related to what made things in our culture in the past. This all used to be better known too as it was a normal thing in culture that was core to culture and because there was more understanding of the origin of that culture as well. AI our education system failed us, to put a stupid phrase to it. Although the education system is fundamental superficial and an end result of all of this and not the thing that makes it.

1980's Saturday morning cartoons were not anime. Sure, Japanese animation studios were responsible for the animation of those shows, but that doesn't make them anime. And no, He-Man wasn't animated by Japanese. It was animated by Americans themselves.

The difference between anime and 1980's American cartoons is that anime could get away with stuff that the latter couldn't.

[Arugela]

No one will ever know, but if we're gonna guesstimate, then I'd say in some ways yes, and others no. Dragon Ball Z and the Pokemon anime were the cause of anime becoming mainstream here in the west, but that didn't really occur until Toonami for Dragon Ball Z. They aired the Ocean dub, but it didn't take off quite as much as it did as when Funimation began dubbing it. Dragon Ball has universal appeal, but at the same time, USA really is it's own entity in terms of things. It really is it's own demographic in comparison to the rest of the world, and localizations make the show appealing to a lot of americans here depending on how it's executed, and when executed correctly it would probably appeal to the common audience here more than just merely the original (at least in that time period).

A clear example of this would be Super Sentai/Power Rangers, which without that localization, it most likely wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it became. I do not think Dragon Ball is quite that level, but I do feel Funimation's localization of the show, and the original OST by Faulconer Productions helped paved the way for a lot of americans to delve into the series easier and thus became as large over here as it did. Another example would be the iconic Pokemon theme which on it's own really is captivating and catchy and makes you want to watch the show. The theme is very different from the japanese Pokemon theme, but had it been the same or similar, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful as a song over here.

Anime did not become popular here because of toonami and funimation or even in the 90's. Anime has been popular here since the 70's or earlier(Much earlier). All of the 80's saturday morning cartoons were anime. Transformers, thundercats, Not sure about He-man, Those flying bird people. There are more and I can't remember them all. Things like macross and others weren't exactly unknown, they were just not televised all the time and it was too expensive to get them on VHS or whatnot. Japanese animation was not just mainstream it was the most popular stuff in our culture at the time(Beyond just being mainstream). It just wasn't the bubbly anime you see today where everyone has massive oversized heads and whatnot. It was more sci fi and other related genres. I keep seeing lots of kids saying anime this or anime that became popular because the stuff when I first watched it did this. They are all wrong. They lack perspective. Before anime it was sci fi like godzilla which was hugely common if not more in both U.S. and japan and crossed all over(I mean the old sci fi and the newer stuff like . The stuff was rock solid from a cultural perspective. Just not all the same genres. And it all basically was sci fi related. That is how modern anime genres eventually established. that culture was the begining of it and is very old. Before that or with that was stuff like Lord of the rings and the fantasy side. None of it is new and did not just become popular. They were massive crazes and completely mainstream decades or more before. Just not with the current art style, assuming it did not have variations then. I know rainbow bright and other, I beleive, purely american animations did have that look. In fact the farther back you go the more likely to get big headed things like Disney and other cartoons plus things like the muppets... I'm not sure where the current art originated. But it's not new either in terms of potential origin or blatant use in Japanese anime.

In fact if you look at the 70's and earlier there is a much larger shared culture and origin of both american and japanese genres and influences. It's only now becoming more isolated as the original community that is mostly the progenitor of it, that is now what you called nerdy, is not actually being defused and is actually disappearing and becoming, "mainstream." That originally was the remaining culture of a greater community spanning science engineering and much older things in our culture that were more related to what made things in our culture in the past. This all used to be better known too as it was a normal thing in culture that was core to culture and because there was more understanding of the origin of that culture as well. AI our education system failed us, to put a stupid phrase to it. Although the education system is fundamental superficial and an end result of all of this and not the thing that makes it.

1980's Saturday morning cartoons were not anime. Sure, Japanese animation studios were responsible for the animation of those shows, but that doesn't make them anime.

It was directly anime and viewed as anime back then. It was never considered otherwise except by the small handful of people how didn't know it was Japanese in origin. When those things first debut everyone knew it was japanese. This was the 80's. It was riding off of past japanese invasion that had been occuring consistently for decades before it. That is where and why things like the song I think I"m turning japanesa came from. It was a very known thing at the time. It only later became unknown and then later on, decades later, people started to be surprised by anime in the last few decades. The anime art style was just different back then. We basically had a decades long brainfart where everything before going back 50+ years it was known by everyone. Japanese stuff in our culture is not new. And nobody mistook it in the past before very recently.

We have an issue with cultural dissonance today for some reason. It's a general education issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR4XNqrqxrU The popularity of sushi is not new either. And it was that common in the past. People are just younger today and do not know of past fads and crazes and popular and widespread they were in the past. And this has gone on, literally every decade, as long as there has been connection between the east and the west. Although this was much better known in the past.

And much of this probably went before the modern east west connections. Engineering culture is naturally prolific and spans all cultures even when people don't realize it does. It's basically always everywhere and interconnected. Even when everything else seems disconnected to other people. that is why sci fi and fantasy span so far back. They are a mix of engineer/science with mythology and religion. All of which are connected together naturally.