Why is Vegeta's life-long obsession/rivalry with Goku?

[Arugela]

I ask this because, did goku ever actually defeat him in combat... His first battle, Goku did not win. Yajirobe and or gohan basically beat him. You could even say krillin. But goku did not. When at any point did goku actually defeat vegeta in combat? He lost at buu that i know of, but I can't think of any other fights.

Has goku every actually beaten vegeta in combat?!

Yajirobe has. What does this say about the show? Or what is the show saying? Why is yajirobe not vegetas life long rival? Or at minimum gohan. Is there some hidden subplot here. Or something interesting lost in translation somewhere? 8p

Did Vegeta get knocked around so much in the head that when he came too he didn't really know what happened? Did he assume upon meeting goku again it must have been him because of his potential power level and or age?(power level might not be an excuse because of gohans.) Is he embarrassed by the yajirobe loss so deeply he's hiding the fact by constantly over emphasizing his goku button to try to be more manly? Does he sleep with Bulma(a second hand from yamcha) because of this deep internal wound because he doesn't feel he can do better now? Does he have constant nightmares about that damn fatman with the sword coming and getting him again? etc etc etc!

Lets just say, not many people have been beaten by yajirobe.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/6 ... en_vegeta/

I was reading this after this post. Is it true goku never defeated yamcha?! I thought he did back in dragon ball before he joined them. Is Yamcha gokus goku?! Is the pig man yamchas yajirobe or something? I forgot how the yamcha thing went back in dragon ball. I'll have to rewatch it.

[dbgtFO]

Because Goku became a Super Saiyan before Vegeta.
From that point onwards Vegeta became fixated on beating Goku and proving himself the greatest.
And Goku beat Yamcha.

[Arugela]

But that potentially makes vegeta the only major villain goku basically didn't beat doesn't it(maybe cell also). But he's his major rival. His rivalry is like the main part of vegetas character now that he's not uber asshole anymore. So it's a bit funny. Are we missing anything interesting in all of that?

If cell came back would goku become cells best buddy and make vegeta even more estranged?

I'm partly getting at. does he feel a psychological need to stay in the inferior position. Maybe it's not just that bulma is assertive. Maybe it's because he puts himself under yamcha. Is there a deeper issue with vegeta. Are we witnessing slowly developing psychosis not, "positive," character development. Maybe that is what happened in GT with the haircut and mustache. Is yamcha purposely used for the source of others issues in that sense. maybe they are mimicking some sort of psychological theory in dragon ball with this.

Is this the real reason he doesn't beat goku. Is it possible without this block he would shoot past goku and leave him in his dust? Is he still actually properly the prince of all saiyans?!

[Olympian]

Goku and Yamcha had IIRC, three brief rounds back to back. Yamcha holds the advantage in the first, they stalemate in the second and in the third Goku holds the advantage himself.

[TheMikado]

But that potentially makes vegeta the only major villain goku basically didn't beat doesn't it(maybe cell also). But he's his major rival. His rivalry is like the main part of vegetas character now that he's not uber asshole anymore. So it's a bit funny. Are we missing anything interesting in all of that?

If cell came back would goku become cells best buddy and make vegeta even more estranged?

I'm partly getting at. does he feel a psychological need to stay in the inferior position. Maybe it's not just that bulma is assertive. Maybe it's because he puts himself under yamcha. Is there a deeper issue with vegeta. Are we witnessing slowly developing psychosis not, "positive," character development. Maybe that is what happened in GT with the haircut and mustache. Is yamcha purposely used for the source of others issues in that sense. maybe they are mimicking some sort of psychological theory in dragon ball with this.

Is this the real reason he doesn't beat goku. Is it possible without this block he would shoot past goku and leave him in his dust? Is still actually properly the prince of all saiyans?!

I'm not really understanding this assessment. Vegeta is of noble ranking and THE strongest saiyan even surpassing his father. Goku is a low level nobody who was sent off to the boondocks because he was so weak. Yet Goku equals and surpasses him in combat without Oozaru which no saiyan ever has before, then to make matters worse he spares his life, becomes SSJ and defeats frieza, a being Vegeta has been subjugated by his entire life. For someone with such a high opinion of himself it was painful to his very being to be constantly in one persons shadow. It wasn't as if Goku merely beat him or had the upper hand in life once or twice. Goku has literally accomplished every single goal Vegeta has dedicated his entire life to all without trying and all without seeming to be worthy of it. For someone with that much pride, privilege and regard for himself it literally breaks his entire self image.

[Captain Strawberry]

Goku was the first to challenge Vegeta's world view. The instant they meet, there is an instant parallel drawn between them. Goku was a lower class to Vegeta whereas Vegeta was a Prince. Vegeta was born with much worth based on how much power he had (where as Goku was sent off forgotten) but to think Goku could climb up to the level of Vegeta is something that really challenges Vegeta because it gives Vegeta less of an incentive of his birth right. To someone that was not as much now to the position of someone who had more power is something that really hurts Vegeta's pride and pulls away the gears of Vegeta's world. I am the prince. I am the noble. I was born with this power. Goku coming in, opening Vegeta's eyes would leave a great impression and scar on the one that would open his eyes. The last person he saw to really fight his world (Vegeta's world view).

[sintzu]

Goku beat him during their first beam sturggle. It doesn't matter to him that the kaioken destroyed his body to the point where a simple hit hurt him and he could've beat him without transforming or the fact that he crushed every bone in his body as an Ozaru.

It deosn't even matter how it happened, Vegeta was so used to winning and getting his way that losing a simple game of rock, paper, scissors instead could've led to the same result as well.

[Kinokima]

To me Vegeta's obsession with Goku definitely started because of Goku defeating Freeza and becoming the legendary SSJ (which doesn't feel very legendary any more now does it)

Of course I think Vegeta wanted to come back and defeat Goku and the rest after he lost in the Saiyan arc but I don't think it was his number one priority whereas after the Freeza arc Goku became his obsession. After all Goku did the two things that he thought was his birthright become SSJ and defeat Freeza who destroyed his home world. Vegeta was a prince, Goku was considered nothing. Of course when he was dying he wanted a Saiyan to defeat Freeza and avenge their people. But brought back to life I guess Vegeta felt the shame that it wasn't him. And so from this point on Vegeta's ultimate goal was defeating Goku.

That being said despite the fact that Vegeta still wants to defeat Goku I don't think he is really obsessed with him any more. I think he has moved on from this negative association with Goku. But he still sees Goku as a rival because he has come to respect Goku as a warrior. That is what is most interesting about Vegeta to me that Goku wants to always find the next strongest opponent but for Vegeta the one he ultimately cares about is Goku. Goku is why Vegeta found a new home on Earth, got a family, and continues to get stronger. So what has started out as something negative I think Goku in a way become a positive thing for Vegeta.

[Chuquita]

Goku's role in Vegeta's life in Super has become so muddy due to having so many cooks in the kitchen that it seems to change round-robin style based on whoever's writing/directing that week.

But if we're talking just Z, I want to say that by the end of the Buu arc they'd become friends (though Vegeta would never admit it). I think the potara fusion gave them a profoundly deep understanding of one another in a way that nothing else could have. I think because in Z they're the last two saiyans that they can relate to each other in a way that only they can. Vegeta's so big on his saiyan pride and the only living proof that he ever had a kingdom at all is Goku. Vegeta continually tried throughout the Cell and early Buu arc to get Goku's attention, but it was only after Vegetto that Vegeta succeeded; Goku continually kept asking him to re-fuse first with potara and then with the fusion dance (I think I counted him asking Vegeta 4 times in the span of a few chapters?).

[Kinokima]

Goku's role in Vegeta's life in Super has become so muddy due to having so many cooks in the kitchen that it seems to change round-robin style based on whoever's writing/directing that week.

But if we're talking just Z, I want to say that by the end of the Buu arc they'd become friends (though Vegeta would never admit it). I think the potara fusion gave them a profoundly deep understanding of one another in a way that nothing else could have. I think because in Z they're the last two saiyans that they can relate to each other in a way that only they can. Vegeta's so big on his saiyan pride and the only living proof that he ever had a kingdom at all is Goku. Vegeta continually tried throughout the Cell and early Buu arc to get Goku's attention, but it was only after Vegetto that Vegeta succeeded; Goku continually kept asking him to re-fuse first with potara and then with the fusion dance (I think I counted him asking Vegeta 4 times in the span of a few chapters?).

Honestly though I don't really see anything in Super that contradicts this. They still seem like friends to me in Super. They even train together now. Maybe not chummy best buds but then again this is Vegeta we are talking about. I certainly don't see how Vegeta is overly upset about Goku or negatively obsessing about him. Granted he might be momentarily discouraged when Goku reaches some new form he hasn't yet but he seems to still be able to move forward.

The only time in Super I remember Vegeta getting visibly upset is when Bulma was telling Trunks that Goku would defeat Goku Black and didn't even mention him. You could tell his pride was really hurt there but even then he still moved forward and and worked with Goku and Future Trunks to help to defeat Goku Black and Zamazu. He didn't get all upset and angry about it.

I also don't think Vegeta saying I am going to win the tournament all by myself when he jumped into help Goku against Universe 9 and then helped Roshi should be taken to much to heart. Vegeta says a lot of things that aren't entirely true.

Of course your point about there being some inconsistency in characterization because of many writers may be a fair point but then when you watch DBZ I think there was inconsistency from time to time too. After all the anime wasn't being 100% handled by Toriyama either.

[sintzu]

When he was dying he wanted a Saiyan to defeat Freeza and avenge their people. But brought back to life I guess Vegeta felt the shame that it wasn't him.

His own son was the one who killed him so he should be happy that the one who put him down was from his own bloodline which at the time was a fitting and natural end for Freeza (before coming back to get killed by Goku ).

[Kinokima]

When he was dying he wanted a Saiyan to defeat Freeza and avenge their people. But brought back to life I guess Vegeta felt the shame that it wasn't him.

His own son was the one who killed him so he should be happy that the one who put him down was from his own bloodline which at the time was a fitting and natural end for Freeza (before coming back to get killed by Goku ).

Well he should have been but at this point Vegeta was still in a very negative place and was probably not thinking rationally. And by the time he realized Trunks was his son he was now a SSJ too and he was going to defeat the Androids and then defeat Goku but of course we all know how that turned out.

But to show how much Vegeta has changed besides being momentarily pissed that Goku seemingly stole his victory once they explained about Freeza destroying the planet he got over it pretty quickly. Again no negative feelings towards Goku.

[TheZFighter]

Goku is supposed to be riff-raff yet, albeit often unintentionally, always managed to come off looking like the bigger man, both in a fighting sense and in general. I imagine for an incredibly prideful bloke like Vegeta, this must be infuriating.

[8000 Saiyan]

Because Goku managed to surpass him, something that Vegeta didn't believe was possible, given that Goku was just a low-level warrior while Vegeta was an elite warrior.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Goku's role in Vegeta's life in Super has become so muddy due to having so many cooks in the kitchen that it seems to change round-robin style based on whoever's writing/directing that week.

But if we're talking just Z, I want to say that by the end of the Buu arc they'd become friends (though Vegeta would never admit it). I think the potara fusion gave them a profoundly deep understanding of one another in a way that nothing else could have. I think because in Z they're the last two saiyans that they can relate to each other in a way that only they can. Vegeta's so big on his saiyan pride and the only living proof that he ever had a kingdom at all is Goku. Vegeta continually tried throughout the Cell and early Buu arc to get Goku's attention, but it was only after Vegetto that Vegeta succeeded; Goku continually kept asking him to re-fuse first with potara and then with the fusion dance (I think I counted him asking Vegeta 4 times in the span of a few chapters?).

Honestly though I don't really see anything in Super that contradicts this. They still seem like friends to me in Super. They even train together now. Maybe not chummy best buds but then again this is Vegeta we are talking about. I certainly don't see how Vegeta is overly upset about Goku or negatively obsessing about him. Granted he might be momentarily discouraged when Goku reaches some new form he hasn't yet but he seems to still be able to move forward.

The only time in Super I remember Vegeta getting visibly upset is when Bulma was telling Trunks that Goku would defeat Goku Black and didn't even mention him. You could tell his pride was really hurt there but even then he still moved forward and and worked with Goku and Future Trunks to help to defeat Goku Black and Zamazu. He didn't get all upset and angry about it.

I also don't think Vegeta saying I am going to win the tournament all by myself when he jumped into help Goku against Universe 9 and then helped Roshi should be taken to much to heart. Vegeta says a lot of things that aren't entirely true.

Of course your point about there being some inconsistency in characterization because of many writers may be a fair point but then when you watch DBZ I think there was inconsistency from time to time too. After all the anime wasn't being 100% handled by Toriyama either.

Right, I think Vegeta has found a balance for himself now, he is no longer letting "surpass Goku" become his primary obsession and control his life Re: Birth of Bra, turned down training with Goku and the Zen Exhibition match vs Trunks birth where was wasn't present and was off obsessing over SS. I think he now knows surpassing Goku is pretty much impossible he doesn't have to surpass Goku to be considered the best/last one standing in the ToP, if he gets it, it is a personal achievement for him.

[floofychan333]

I wouldn't say Vegeta has a life long obsession with Goku because they only met as adults. Vegeta likely envies Goku because Goku has managed to maintain a family and life outside of training while still being able to continuously surpass him.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta brings up wanting to surpass Goku, more than any other character because reaching Goku's strength was understandably the most realistic goal for him given that of the original central cast, Goku is not only the strongest and Vegeta knows that Goku always finds way to improve himself in fashions that Vegeta didn't think was possible. Goku did with full power SSJ, he did it with SSJ3 and he does it again with stacking Kaioken, with a multiplier of tenfold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue. He focuses more on Goku because he knows, better than anyone else, that he's the person, more than anyone other character in the central cast, that will find a way to break though all the glass ceilings power he encounters in the most improbable way. Goku getting yet another new form in Super is proof of this.

[Arugela]

I was hinting if he has a psychological block. partially a joke partly serious. It could be a purposeful joke in the show. It could be part of his character design.

Does he have this beyond what is most apparent about his character and personality. His complaining about goku is pretty loud and unrealistically open. Is he using it as an excuse? In otherwords, is there more to vegeta? I think this counts as psychoanalysing him. Maybe some of the other parts of him help further explain the other parts of him. Maybe he is a complex man!

[Olympian]

Vegeta brings up wanting to surpass Goku, more than any other character because reaching Goku's strength was understandably the most realistic goal for him given that of the original central cast, Goku is not only the strongest and Vegeta knows that Goku always finds way to improve himself in fashions that Vegeta didn't think was possible. Goku did with full power SSJ, he did it with SSJ3 and he does it again with stacking Kaioken, with a multiplier of tenfold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue. He focuses more on Goku because he knows, better than anyone else, that he's the person, more than anyone other character in the central cast, that will find a way to break though all the glass ceilings power he encounters in the most improbable way. Goku getting yet another new form in Super is proof of this.

And that`s why he never will. His eyes aren`t on the finishing line, they`re always on Goku.

Meanwhile Goku focus on training and be better than he was before, not anyone else in particular. Vegeta is that guy in second place looking at Michael Phelps while the former is always looking ahead instead. I`ll venture that up until a point, the rest of the cast did have the desire to be better but they did the same mistake Vegeta does (look at Tenshinhan, virtually preparing his strategy in the 23rd Bodukai focusing on how his previous match with Goku went), the only difference is, as soon Super Saiyan is introduced, any hope of doing so is burnt to the ground whereas Vegeta having the same physiology stands the better chance.

They`ll all end up the same place tho, looking up at Goku.

[Kinokima]

Vegeta brings up wanting to surpass Goku, more than any other character because reaching Goku's strength was understandably the most realistic goal for him given that of the original central cast, Goku is not only the strongest and Vegeta knows that Goku always finds way to improve himself in fashions that Vegeta didn't think was possible. Goku did with full power SSJ, he did it with SSJ3 and he does it again with stacking Kaioken, with a multiplier of tenfold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue. He focuses more on Goku because he knows, better than anyone else, that he's the person, more than anyone other character in the central cast, that will find a way to break though all the glass ceilings power he encounters in the most improbable way. Goku getting yet another new form in Super is proof of this.

And that`s why he never will. His eyes aren`t on the finishing line, they`re always on Goku.

Meanwhile Goku focus on training and be better than he was before, not anyone else in particular. Vegeta is that guy in second place looking at Michael Phelps while the former is always looking ahead instead. I`ll venture that up until a point, the rest of the cast did have the desire to be better but they did the same mistake Vegeta does (look at Tenshinhan, virtually preparing his strategy in the 23rd Bodukai focusing on how his previous match with Goku went), the only difference is, as soon Super Saiyan is introduced, any hope of doing so is burnt to the ground whereas Vegeta having the same physiology stands the better chance.

They`ll all end up the same place tho, looking up at Goku.

The main reason Vegeta will never be stronger than Goku is because Goku is the main character. Goku always gets to be the character others admire and are inspired by. Vegeta is no exception.

That being said in Vegeta's case while he may never surpass Goku because he sees Goku as his rival he actually has gotten stronger. Much stronger than he ever would have gotten without Goku. While you see looking to Goku as a negative thing I actually disagree. Before Goku there was never anyone that Vegeta truly respected. I mean he faced stronger enemies than him before he met Goku (otherwise he would have taken Freeza down a long time ago). But Goku (and Vegeta's family) is ultimately why Vegeta is who he is today. And as I see that change as something positive I don't see looking to Goku as something negative at all for Vegeta. It was only negative in the past because of how much Vegeta based his pride and self worth on being stronger than Goku.