But seriously, how did the Falcouner soundtrack even make it to air?

[ABED]

It's not overblown. He's presented as a western style superhero even though that was never the intent. His actions prove that he would never belong in the Justice League. The hope of the universe would not let a threat like Piccolo, Vegeta, or the Cyborgs go for the reason he did (i.e. to have a better fight). It absolutely stands out and clashes. That more than anything else I listed stands out.

And I agree that Freeza's mannerisms don't seem to clash with how the dub presents him, but when you know what to look for, you can't unsee it. The dub shouldn't be trying to get one over on the audience.

Taking Zephyr's point, in an adaptation, they are making it from scratch. There's existing source material, but there's no footage or anything like that. In a dub, there's already an existing product. The only thing the dub has to do is provide the audio tracks.

[thaman91]

It's not overblown. He's presented as a western style superhero even though that was never the intent. His actions prove that he would never belong in the Justice League. The hope of the universe would not let a threat like Piccolo, Vegeta, or the Cyborgs go for the reason he did (i.e. to have a better fight). It absolutely stands out and clashes. That more than anything else I listed stands out.

The Piccolo point, while understandable, is not one that I personally consider here since, at the time of that line's dubbing, Dragon Ball had not been dubbed yet (another reason why I wouldn't recommend the Z dub to newcomers, since its characterizations don't exactly mesh with what comes before or after). But going with dub dialogue, Goku lets Vegeta go because "killing him would make us no better than him" or something like that. So it's still spun in a heroic way, which makes it fit the hero vibe. With the Androids, he's against killing Gero because "he still hasn't built the Androids, so he hasn't done anything wrong yet". So same thing really. The real moment that stood out to me in the dub for when Goku slips out of the hero role is when he gives Cell a senzu. But by that point, we're quite a ways away from the "hope of the universe" speech. It didn't clash for me because of both a.) the time that had passed since he was giving all those over-the-top heroic speeches, and b.) the ability to interpret it as a character change in Goku (maybe hanging around with Vegeta had caused some of those traits to rub off on him).

And I agree that Freeza's mannerisms don't seem to clash with how the dub presents him, but when you know what to look for, you can't unsee it. The dub shouldn't be trying to get one over on the audience.

Do I know what to look for if I've seen the Kai dub? Because I have. And I'm still able to watch the old dub Freeza without thinking about his aristocratic mannerisms.

Taking Zephyr's point, in an adaptation, they are making it from scratch. There's existing source material, but there's no footage or anything like that. In a dub, there's already an existing product. The only thing the dub has to do is provide the audio tracks.

I can agree with that. All they should have done is dubbed the show accurately to begin with. That makes it a faithful adaptation and minimizes fanbase divisions. Still, they did what they did. And as much as I'm against that practice on principle, I still enjoy their never-should-have-been-made-the-way-it-was product.

[Zephyr]

Another point on the writing: Funimation has an odd need to ham things up randomly. There's no reason for that. Dragon Ball's already brimming with Toriyama's sense of humor. Funimation's sense of humor is neither consistent with Toriyama's, nor warranted in a localization of his story. It exudes a confused "what if Dragon Ball was funny, guys?" kind of approach. Having which downplays the already existent prevalence and specific flavor of the humor Dragon Ball is already known for.

If hamming shit up was meant to make up for skipping the more humorous Dragon Ball, I'd understand, but even then only on the initial broadcast, and only up until, and not a moment's passed, they began airing their own dub of Dragon Ball. And the same goes for shitty translated scripts from Toei: it's one thing to get incomplete source material, and improvise when you need to. But as soon as the more accurate shit comes in, there's no reason to continually release the original production as if it was anything but the result of a rushed broadcast. And even they've realized this, and took Kai as an opportunity to do a complete redub.

[ABED]

But Goku's "Gero still hasn't done" anything is so flimsy. Even if Gero hasn't done anything, they still don't need to necessarily kill him to stop him. It's a ridiculous line that tries to make Goku more of a western hero than he actually is, and it fails.

DB's a story rooted in the Wuxia genre and I grant you that the dub left me with some innacurate beliefs about the characters and the story, but there were still lingering feelings that the characters were being stupid like during the Cell arc. That's the most obvious example. None of the Z team's actions in the lead up to the cyborgs' arrival makes any sense until you realize they aren't out to stop them. They want a fight. Why should the dub have even tried to filter the show through a western lens? Let the show be the show. That nagging feeling went away when I finally realized the heroes' aim wasn't to save the world.

b.) the ability to interpret it as a character change in Goku (maybe hanging around with Vegeta had caused some of those traits to rub off on him).

That would be bad writing. What point would Toriyama be trying to make if that were the case? If it were true, why not make a big deal of it? This comes off as trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

If we're supposed to celebrate the uniqueness of other cultures, why Americanize the show by changing the characters, dialog, and the music? You might be able to get away with it, but why bother?

[thaman91]

It's flimsy and it feels contrived, as does Vegeta's line about how finding the dragon balls would take too long. But that's the extent of it. I don't feel any sort of clashing characterizations. It's like they made an exchange at the store: they got to preserve the characterization, but at the cost of creating a plot contrivance. And while having a plot contrivance is a flaw, I don't consider it to be a deal breaker since even the original version contains some plot contrivances (not that particular one, of course, but it still has them).

None of the Z team's actions in the lead up to the cyborgs' arrival makes any sense until you realize they aren't out to stop them. They want a fight. Why should the dub have even tried to filter the show through a western lens? Let the show be the show. That nagging feeling went away when I finally realized the heroes' aim wasn't to save the world.

It should have let the show be the show. But that's a separate discussion. Personally, I never had that nagging feeling. It was a plot contrivance but I guess this is the kind of show where plot contrivances don't bother me to the extent that they might in another show.

b.) the ability to interpret it as a character change in Goku (maybe hanging around with Vegeta had caused some of those traits to rub off on him).

That would be bad writing. What point would Toriyama be trying to make if that were the case? If it were true, why not make a big deal of it? This comes off as trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Well again, dub Goku has always had the love for fighting with the heroic stuff. So it's not so unreasonable that the former might momentarily overshadow the latter. There doesn't need to be a big moment about it as it's just one aspect of him being more prominent in that moment. Another line to consider is when King Kai suggests that possibility that Goku's Super Saiyan form might be impairing his judgement; so despite his desire to do the right thing, maybe he's becoming more impulsive since he's been a Super Saiyan for so long. I dunno. It really only needs a big moment if it drastically clashes, and I don't really think that it does.

If we're supposed to celebrate the uniqueness of other cultures, why Americanize the show by changing the characters, dialog, and the music? You might be able to get away with it, but why bother?

Yeah they shouldn't have.

[Gaffer Tape]

But Goku's "Gero still hasn't done" anything is so flimsy. Even if Gero hasn't done anything, they still don't need to necessarily kill him to stop him. It's a ridiculous line that tries to make Goku more of a western hero than he actually is, and it fails.

While I agree it's a flimsy line of reasoning, it's not FUNimation's flimsy line of reasoning. That's in the original dialogue.

[ABED]

No, it shouldn't have been shown on the show, because it's not the show. It's you desperately searching for a way to make the dub characterization work with what you see. And please stop trying to reconcile dub Goku with the actual story. You can't do it. Once again, square peg and round hole.

I don't feel any sort of clashing characterizations.

It absolutely is a clash. If they were concerned with saving the world, they wouldn't let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs now that they have advanced warning. That is of course, if that's not their goal.

While I agree it's a flimsy line of reasoning, it's not FUNimation's flimsy line of reasoning. That's in the original dialogue.

No, that's not the original line. They don't care that he hasn't done anything yet. They aren't out to stop him and save the world.

[thaman91]

It's you desperately searching for a way to make the dub characterization work with what you see. And please stop trying to reconcile dub Goku with the actual story. You can't do it. Once again, square peg and round hole.

All I'm doing is explaining why it doesn't clash....no desperation needed. I've given actual examples from the dub for why his actions can make sense. The fact is that his dub personality has had both a heroic side and a side that loves fighting. And King Kai has suggested that the Super Saiyan form can impair judgement. It's not that hard to reconcile all that. I'm not saying it all works perfectly, not at all. The Japanese version is obviously better here since plot decisions make more sense.....all I'm saying is that one can easily watch the dub version and not feel that anything has clashed, simply due to the dub dialogue that we've gotten so far.

I don't feel any sort of clashing characterizations.

It absolutely is a clash. If they were concerned with saving the world, they wouldn't let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs now that they have advanced warning. That is of course, if that's not their goal.

No it's absolutely not. If we're going to count that as a characterization clash then even the original story has them. When Yamcha is dying after Android 20 punches a hole through him why does Goku not give him some ki to save his life like he did with Freeza? It clearly means that he doesn't care at all about Yamcha whereas he did before (characterization clash!). Why didn't he give any ki to Videl to restore her back to health after her Spopovich fight? I guess he'd prefer to let his son's girlfriend suffer for no reason (characterization clash!). No but really, they're not actually characterization clashes, they're just examples of Toriyama introducing a new plot element for a single moment, and then not ever utilizing it again (aka: plot contrivance).

While I agree it's a flimsy line of reasoning, it's not FUNimation's flimsy line of reasoning. That's in the original dialogue.

No, that's not the original line. They don't care that he hasn't done anything yet. They aren't out to stop him and save the world.

I mean, it's not as emphasized as in the dub (because they give other reasoning like how they want to fight the Androids), but Goku does in fact say the line about how Gero hasn't done anything yet.

[ABED]

Back on topic, I love classic rock, but that doesn't mean it belongs with every movie or TV show. Same with any music in a movie or TV show. You might like the dub score, but that doesn't mean it goes with the story.

[VegettoEX]

This is a quite a bit far beyond the replacement soundtrack at this point. Please try to wrap it back around, or have another conversation elsewhere in a more-appropriate spot.

[ABED]

This is a quite a bit far beyond the replacement soundtrack at this point. Please try to wrap it back around, or have another conversation elsewhere in a more-appropriate spot.

Sorry about that. My bad, I have already changed my previous post realizing it had gotten off topic.

[Bardo117]

Honestly, I don't know what you guys are referring with that... I've seen the showin two different forms(Mexican American-Dub during it's original syndication, and FUNImations syndication), and both times I came away feeling exactly the same about the show. FUNImations use of a different BGM did not change the show completely, nor did various other changes they made. It was actually very refreshing to have the new approach. Now that statement is spoken in past tense, because now the changes are obvious and sub-par, such as the Falcouner tracks. But that is because through time I've become a more developed fan.



Maybe FUNImation's original syndication or their rock infused tracks don't bother me quite as much because I was lucky enough to have watched a version that is closer to the Japanese version out of the gun. Unlike most of you who were stuck with what you considered a heavily altered version. Different experiences lead to different opinions.

[Gaffer Tape]

While I agree it's a flimsy line of reasoning, it's not FUNimation's flimsy line of reasoning. That's in the original dialogue.

No, that's not the original line. They don't care that he hasn't done anything yet. They aren't out to stop him and save the world.

I'm sorry you disagree, but this is not a matter of opinion. I'm trying to present you the facts. Just to be absolutely sure, I checked both the manga and the anime before I made that post last night, and, yes, that is the original line. Don't be so eager to prove your point that you steamroll over evidence that doesn't agree with your side. Goku is neither as superheroic as Toei and a lot of dub fans would like you to believe, nor is he as selfish as those reacting against the superheroic narrative like to push.

And Avatar/Dances With Wolves isn't an adaptation of Pocahontas....

Considering that Dances with Wolves came out several years before Disney's Pocahontas, I think you're a little backwards on that.

Y'all hate to admit the logic behind the argument simply because you dislike the Falcouner music. At the end of the day the music didn't make the show worse, and at the end of the day the show lost absolutely NO fans with the switch of music. The show was presented in such a way that allowed it to become a phenomenon. Also, another thing. Personally I like the Japanese BGM better, and I am only defending and applying simple logic and reasoning to FUNI's decision.

I don't think we're that stuck in our ways. I mean, again, the original music has aired in the U.S. with Dragon Ball Z content. It did in 1999, and nobody seemed to care. It has aired with Kai since 2011, and a whole new generation of fans didn't seem to be put off by it. So there is actual evidence, both in the '90s and in the present day, that the original Kikuchi score works just fine here. As for the Faulconer score losing "absolutely NO fans" I can certainly attest it was a large part of the reason I left the dub behind. So it lost a fan in me.

It drives me crazy that I can't find the interview where FUNimation admits that they replaced the score because they would own the replacement music and, therefore, make money off of it every time it was played.

[ABED]

Different opinions will always exist, which is why I always find odd the idea that the changes made to the dub is what created the divided fanbase. In any case, the dub music does make the show feel very different. Obviously not completely different. There's no way it could because they have to stick to the original story to a large extent because they aren't creating the series from scratch.

One thing I would be interested in reading about is the approach Kikuchi took with the music. What were his thoughts about his approach to scoring the series? What did he know about the story when he began writing the score?

I'm sorry you disagree, but this is not a matter of opinion. I'm trying to present you the facts. Just to be absolutely sure, I checked both the manga and the anime before I made that post last night, and, yes, that is the original line. Don't be so eager to prove your point that you steamroll over evidence that doesn't agree with your side. Goku is neither as superheroic as Toei and a lot of dub fans would like you to believe, nor is he as selfish as those reacting against the superheroic narrative like to push.

Mea culpa. I forgot that the line existed, but even in the manga, it's more or less a throw away line that serves as a flimsy excuse. Now let us return to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Bardo117]

I still maintain that it was very refreshing to watch a new take on Dragon ball after having seen the original.

[Kunzait_83]

The way that Goku's "...but he (Gero) hasn't done anything yet." line comes across in the manga seems more like its an example of Goku's rural/naive dimness as opposed to him trying to actively dig for any sort of flimsy excuse to fight the Jinzoningen. Its basically a joke at his expense: he legitimately, sincerely doesn't understand why they'd go after someone over something they haven't done yet. He's not the brightest bulb in many instances, particularly when it comes to something as complex and mind bending as a concept like time travel. Its just a throwaway chuckle moment (haha, Goku's so dippy) showing Goku being a dolt with time travel ideas, not a major plot/characterization moment that sheds any insight into his moral compass. He's neither selfishly digging for a rationale nor is he being altruistic in any way: he's just being genuinely dense.

[Bansho64]

Maybe FUNImation's original syndication or their rock infused tracks don't bother me quite as much because I was lucky enough to have watched a version that is closer to the Japanese version out of the gun. Unlike most of you who were stuck with what you considered a heavily altered version. Different experiences lead to different opinions.

Eh, that's not it either. I myself got introduced to the franchise with Kai back in 2011 and I don't like the replacements they used either.

[ABED]

I still maintain that it was very refreshing to watch a new take on Dragon ball after having seen the original.

And I like new takes on characters like Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man. However, those takes have the benefit of starting from scratch. They didn't take an existing take and redub and rescore it.

He's neither selfishly digging for a rationale nor is he being altruistic in any way: he's just being genuinely dense.

I can't believe I never saw that.

[Fionordequester]

So, back to the topic of "how did Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos's Bruce Faulconer's soundtrack even make it to air"...

...

That's because it's awesome! And evidently, the Cartoon Network execs thought so too! As for me, I don't care how "low-budget" Team Faulconer's instruments were; because apparently, they were still good enough to produce this on the very first episode they ever did ("Ginyu Assault")

Time Chamber Part 1 (0:00-0:56) [used as a standalone track in several other scenes, but aired along with "Time Chamber Part 2" when first heard in Ginyu Assault]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAm2yjqIwGY

Episodic Freeza II (0:00-1:37) [this is a fan rip of this specific unreleased track, along with several others; so quality isn't perfect]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXyfVPRRFoY

Time Chamber Part 2 (0:00-0:43) [one of the most prominently used "sad themes" up until DBZ Episode 238: "Evil Lives On"; after that, it never played again. This part was never released outside of one of the Trunks Compendiums; so it's also known by a plethora of fan names like "Gohan's Innocence" and "Sad Theme"]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayj7gIRNtoc

Devastation (whole video) [one of the most prominently used "ominous tracks"; generally used as ambient music when the mood needed to be tense. Don't be fooled by what CoyCoy88 says about it; it actually originally aired in "Ginyu Assault", and was therefore one of the first tracks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq5FEwCrkIs[/b]

Guru's Theme (0:00-2:00) [Not much to say about this one; except that there's a released song with this name, despite being one of Goku's themes...weird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INMKFPp8YR8

And that's just from their very first episode! That's not even getting into just a few of my favorite tracks, like...

Goku's Spirit Bomb, Part 1 (0:00-4:11) [This one was sometimes used as an ambient track for exciting/motivating scenes]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJbl2Ebzkc

Goku's Spirit Bomb, Part 2 (4:12-6:32) [This part was Scott Morgan's very first standalone song! And what an entrance he made!]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJbl2Ebzkc

SSJ Transformation [No comments needed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2zk8UAG43g

Frieza's Death [Was supposed to play at the exact moment Trunk's killed Freeza; but FUNI told them to replace that scene with the "Boogieman" and "Destruction" themes to make it seem like Trunks may, or may not, be a bad guy]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaOOXLt4knA

[Kokonoe]

So, back to the topic of "how did Mike Smith, Scott Morgan, and Julius Dobos's Bruce Faulconer's soundtrack even make it to air"...

...

That's because it's awesome! And evidently, the Cartoon Network execs thought so too! As for me, I don't care how "low-budget" Team Faulconer's instruments were; because apparently, they were still good enough to produce this on the very first episode they ever did ("Ginyu Assault")

Time Chamber Part 1 (0:00-0:56) [used as a standalone track in several other scenes, but aired along with "Time Chamber Part 2" when first heard in Ginyu Assault]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAm2yjqIwGY

Episodic Freeza II (0:00-1:37) [this is a fan rip of this specific unreleased track, along with several others; so quality isn't perfect]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXyfVPRRFoY

Time Chamber Part 2 (0:00-0:43) [one of the most prominently used "sad themes" up until DBZ Episode 238: "Evil Lives On"; after that, it never played again. This part was never released outside of one of the Trunks Compendiums; so it's also known by a plethora of fan names like "Gohan's Innocence" and "Sad Theme"]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayj7gIRNtoc

Devastation (whole video) [one of the most prominently used "ominous tracks"; generally used as ambient music when the mood needed to be tense. Don't be fooled by what CoyCoy88 says about it; it actually originally aired in "Ginyu Assault", and was therefore one of the first tracks]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq5FEwCrkIs[/b]

Guru's Theme (0:00-2:00) [Not much to say about this one; except that there's a released song with this name, despite being one of Goku's themes...weird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INMKFPp8YR8

And that's just from their very first episode! That's not even getting into just a few of my favorite tracks, like...

Goku's Spirit Bomb, Part 1 (0:00-4:11) [This one was sometimes used as an ambient track for exciting/motivating scenes]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJbl2Ebzkc

Goku's Spirit Bomb, Part 2 (4:12-6:32) [This part was Scott Morgan's very first standalone song! And what an entrance he made!]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJbl2Ebzkc

SSJ Transformation [No comments needed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2zk8UAG43g

Frieza's Death [Was supposed to play at the exact moment Trunk's killed Freeza; but FUNI told them to replace that scene with the "Boogieman" and "Destruction" themes to make it seem like Trunks may, or may not, be a bad guy]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaOOXLt4knA

Agreed. I really love the atmospheric nature of the OST at times. Some complain that the music doesn't shut off, but I actually prefer the music to remain going if it's done in this manner. Glad to see more appreciation of the OST.