But seriously, how did the Falcouner soundtrack even make it to air?

[Bryesque]

I still don't buy this idea that the score was so "outdated", especially considering the English dub only began 7 years after DBZ premiered in Japan (and the in-house Funi dub was just a few years later).

Even now... y'know, I've said this already, but it holds up just fine. I don't see what's particularly dated about it, especially compared to many other cartoon scores since.

The Japanese score is clearly based on 60's film music. I had a thread a while back on this. To an older person who is familiar with that music it's very apparent, to some younger people it sounds new and fresh because it is so far forgotten I think. The Wuxia vibe could be a decent excuse for some of it. I still don't get all the wacky things like musical saws, Vibraslap, and theremin, but it's what those older timers did I guess. It's not about when it's produced, it's about who it's by and what they brought with them. Kikuchi definitely harkens back to an older time, just like I'm definitely rooted in the 80s even though I might be writing new music in the 2010's, I definitely still have an 80's vibe because that was my childhood.

Sure, that makes sense. And you're right, any art is informed by the creator's history, tastes, and experiences, and that's unavoidable. Personally, I think Kikuchi's score just fits the material and its world, and that's why it never feels "dated" to me -- regardless (or because?) of the influences, it just feels natural in the show where other scores don't, at least in my opinion.

[Duo]

I still don't buy this idea that the score was so "outdated", especially considering the English dub only began 7 years after DBZ premiered in Japan (and the in-house Funi dub was just a few years later).

Even now... y'know, I've said this already, but it holds up just fine. I don't see what's particularly dated about it, especially compared to many other cartoon scores since.

The Japanese score is clearly based on 60's film music. I had a thread a while back on this. To an older person who is familiar with that music it's very apparent, to some younger people it sounds new and fresh because it is so far forgotten I think. The Wuxia vibe could be a decent excuse for some of it. I still don't get all the wacky things like musical saws, Vibraslap, and theremin, but it's what those older timers did I guess. It's not about when it's produced, it's about who it's by and what they brought with them. Kikuchi definitely harkens back to an older time, just like I'm definitely rooted in the 80s even though I might be writing new music in the 2010's, I definitely still have an 80's vibe because that was my childhood.

To me the Faulconer score has some bad MIDI parts in it and is very 80s. The Japanese score has a jazz band 60's esque film score with a mediocre group performing it. The Faulconer score plays way too much, the Japanese not enough. Faulconer score over heavies things at times (it's not all hardcore though, not even close), Japanese score underplays things too much (though it's not all light floofy stuff). Each has their issues and strengths. I think people tend to polarize too much. It's not like the Japanese score never used synths/guitars and the Faulconer score never had pretty orchestra stuff.

Great post. I don't quite agree with some of your criticisms toward the Japanese score, but your viewpoint is informed and well-spoken. I suppose the greatest difference, for me, is that I can listen to the Kikuchi score as a complete piece (as composed for the movies proper) and understand the creativity/intent/value therein. The Faulconer production has great pieces sprinkled throughout, but the placement was often terrible and quality of production inconsistent. Every moment of brilliance belongs to yourself or other upcoming composers on that team at the time.

[ABED]

The underplaying thing is frequent though. I feel a lot of action or dramatic sequences are really not very exciting because of it

Music does play during the action sequences. I prefer much of the time to let the moments speak for themselves. Any specific moments you can think of that aren't exciting due to the lack of music? One has to wonder if it's the moment you are reacting to or if it's the music you are responding to.

[8000 Saiyan]

Standards obviously change as you get older, but I just honestly don't remember caring or hearing anybody else care about stuff like voice acting and music. Like I had said earlier, I think music has to subconsciously be appealing. Not that you would notice it particularly as a kid,but the BGM has to be contemporary to what kids are use to hearing in their television shows and I think having the show with an 80's soundtrack would have the show feeling out of place and unappealing in certain aspects for kids.Might not be 100% true, but I'm sure that's what FUNI was thinking at the time. They played the music and thought it was too outdated to play for modern audiences(Or American Audiences in general)

Do you really believe that?

[Bansho64]

Standards obviously change as you get older, but I just honestly don't remember caring or hearing anybody else care about stuff like voice acting and music. Like I had said earlier, I think music has to subconsciously be appealing. Not that you would notice it particularly as a kid,but the BGM has to be contemporary to what kids are use to hearing in their television shows and I think having the show with an 80's soundtrack would have the show feeling out of place and unappealing in certain aspects for kids.Might not be 100% true, but I'm sure that's what FUNI was thinking at the time. They played the music and thought it was too outdated to play for modern audiences(Or American Audiences in general)

Do you really believe that?

Same. With that logic, no one should like classic shows like Scooby Doo or Tom and Jerry because they don't have "modern" soundtracks anymore

My honest analysis of all of this is that I have never seen a kid complain about a show or movie for voice acting and music. Unless it's dubbed, I remember complaining all of the time when I watched Godzilla movies in English.... But hated watching them in Japanese because I didn't want to read subtitles because I wanted to focus on the action. Point is, as a kid you don't notice things like music, or voice acting. As a kid you could be watching your favorite cartoon on that crappy television that your grandmother has with bad antenna signal and you'd still love it.

That's some weird logic right there. "I haven't seen it, so the MUST mean it doesn't exist". In contrast, I have seen that. I don't get this logic of, when you're a kid, you don't care anything about a show's aspect.

Now, I don't know about y'all, but that's BS for me personally. I did pay attention to that stuff. Part of the reason I liked Kai so much when I first saw it on Nicktoons was because of the music (Kikuchi). For me, his music set the overall mood and tone. Now, of course, I wasn't necessarily thinking all that deep about it. I just liked how it sounded.

[Bardo117]

Obviously there was somebody that thought rock/guitar music really fit into Dragonball Z, which is why they crammed so much metal rock music into their movies in the first place. At the end of the day FUNImation had a certain vision for their release of DBZ and it payed off because there's tons of fans who have come to their defense.


There should honestly be a survey/experiment conducted over this. Show the same clip to someone who's never watched the show with the different BGM and ask them to choose which one sounds better. I've only done this between family members and a few friends(5/6 people), so my results may be bias but they've all picked the Falcouner music.


Y'all hate to admit the logic behind the argument simply because you dislike the Falcouner music. At the end of the day the music didn't make the show worse, and at the end of the day the show lost absolutely NO fans with the switch of music. The show was presented in such a way that allowed it to become a phenomenon. Also, another thing. Personally I like the Japanese BGM better, and I am only defending and applying simple logic and reasoning to FUNI's decision.

[ABED]

Obviously there was somebody that thought rock/guitar music really fit into Dragonball Z, which is why they crammed so much metal rock music into their movies in the first place. At the end of the day FUNImation had a certain vision for their release of DBZ and it payed off because there's tons of fans who have come to their defense.There should honestly be a survey/experiment conducted over this. Show the same clip to someone who's never watched the show with the different BGM and ask them to choose which one sounds better. I've only done this between family members and a few friends(5/6 people), so my results may be bias but they've all picked the Falcouner music. Y'all hate to admit the logic behind the argument simply because you dislike the Falcouner music. At the end of the day the music didn't make the show worse, and at the end of the day the show lost absolutely NO fans with the switch of music. The show was presented in such a way that allowed it to become a phenomenon. Also, another thing. Personally I like the Japanese BGM better, and I am only defending and applying simple logic and reasoning to FUNI's decision.

Dale Kelly was the man you are talking about. I've heard his interview and his logic behind the metal music was specious at best. FUNimation's vision isn't what caused it to pay off. DB is the reason it paid off. And you can't create a TV show based on some survey. Faulconer's score was one big thing amongst many others that made the dub way worse. I don't know what it will take for you and others to understand, the show was already a success well before Faulconer. I know that sounds pushy, but it's true and varifiable. The success of the show on Cartoon Network was what got them a third season to begin with.

[Bansho64]

Obviously there was somebody that thought rock/guitar music really fit into Dragonball Z, which is why they crammed so much metal rock music into their movies in the first place. At the end of the day FUNImation had a certain vision for their release of DBZ and it payed off because there's tons of fans who have come to their defense.

Good for them. Meanwhile, the majority of the rest of the world got the original score as intended.

Y'all hate to admit the logic behind the argument simply because you dislike the Falcouner music. At the end of the day the music didn't make the show worse, and at the end of the day the show lost absolutely NO fans with the switch of music. The show was presented in such a way that allowed it to become a phenomenon. Also, another thing. Personally I like the Japanese BGM better, and I am only defending and applying simple logic and reasoning to FUNI's decision.

I can't hate admitting to something that was never there in the first place. The idea of them not losing any fans at all because of the music is a ridiculous statement. Especially considering that some of the people here at this site are proof of that.

The show was already a phenomenon across the planet before FUNi even got their hands on it.

[dario03]

Faulconer's score was one big thing amongst many others that made the dub way worse.

I don't know what it will take for you and others to understand, the show was already a success well before Faulconer. I know that sounds pushy, but it's true and varifiable. The success of the show on Cartoon Network was what got them a third season to begin with.

The second part is true and verifiable.
The first part is opinion if we are talking about individuals enjoyment of the Funi version of the show.

[ABED]

The first part is opinion if we are talking about individuals enjoyment of the Funi version of the show.

It's not really the story. It's very different from Toriyama's story. I was disagreeing with Bardo's opinion that it didn't make the show worse. Even if you don't agree, the music alone does change the tone and the intent.

[Bardo117]

It is entirely possible that there are people out there who consider FUNI's version vastly superior to the Toei's.

[8000 Saiyan]

It is entirely possible that there are people out there who consider FUNI's version vastly superior to the Toei's.

Of course there are.

[ABED]

It is entirely possible that there are people out there who consider FUNI's version vastly superior to the Toei's.

I'm all too aware of that fact, and as bad as it sounds, I do question the taste of anyone who considers the in-house dub, especially the early years, to be superior to the original.

[Zephyr]

It is entirely possible that there are people out there who consider FUNI's version vastly superior to the Toei's.

Anyone is free to see something as superior or inferior to another. That's a subjective value judgment and there's nothing wrong with it. Of course, when you want to assert this supposed superiority, you have to provide justification for it. And most of the attempted justifications for the alleged superiority of Funimation's version boil down, time and time and time and time again, to some combination of misconceptions and misinformation and circular reasoning based on imbalanced overexposure to Funimation's version.

- "The tone is different!" isn't a correct assessment, as the tone in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs is no different than it was for the second half of pre-Z Dragon Ball. Of course, you wouldn't realize this if you only, or mostly, watched Funimation's version, since they kept Dragon Ball mostly as-is with the tone, while amping shit up to absurd degrees when Raditz lands.
- "The genre is different!" isn't a correct assessment, as it's still a Wuxia story, even if the window dressing that gets sprinkled over the top is a little more sci-fi tinged. Of course, you wouldn't realize this if you only, or mostly, watched Funimation's version, since they do their best to stomp out most references to mystical martial arts stuff.
- "The themes are different!" isn't a correct assessment, as, again, it's still a Wuxia story about martial artists trying to better themselves, saving the world by mere happenstance.

Toei's "version" is an adaptation of Toriyama's story. They're inextricably tied together. The characters say the same things. Toriyama chose Nozawa, and he heard her voice even while drawing the manga. Funimation's version is a farcry from this, lacking the kind of dialog and voice acting that authentically translates Toriyama's character-writing and personalities, obfuscating several genre conventions to avoid pissing off soccer moms, and obfuscating several other genre conventions for the sake of being as "X-Treme" as possible. It's a Monster Truck Rally starring the Justice League of WWE superstars in Funimation's version, not a rag tag group of whimsical and irreverent martial artists. That isn't Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball, on any meaningful level. It's got the same basic skeleton of story beats and character designs and choreography and animation (all of which are definitely still cool, and largely all you'd need to get kids interested), but it lacks the meat of what makes the story actually interesting and charming and worthwhile beyond being just a cool show for kids.

If there are people who prefer something that doesn't reflect Toriyama's work, that's fine. I have no qualms with that, more power to you. But if you're in fact a fan of something that is so warped and transformed that it's not really even a localization of an anime adaptation of Toriyama's work anymore, and leans more on officially licensed parody, devoid of much of what makes this just a damn good story, then I question why you would even come here. This is a place that focuses on Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball and its related animated adaptations. This is where you go when you want to go down the rabbit hole. This is where you go when you want to focus on discussing the actual show, not an Americanized derivative. Let me stress again that there's nothing wrong with preferring or discussing the Americanized derivative; I'm simply questioning the rationale behind coming to a place that is not for or about the Americanized derivative, when said Americanized derivative, not the actual show, is what you're a fan of. "You" not being anyone in particular, but rather anyone who indeed considers Funimation's version to be "vastly superior" to Toei's.

Such folks do crop up around here every once in a while, and seem to just constantly play the victim card for preferring the dub, oozing with smug derision,
appalled over the fact that they're not in the majority, and I'm just sitting over here looking like Zach Braff like, "where do you think we are?"

[Bardo117]

Once again, to further clarify, I am NOT one of those fans who think FUNI's BGM is superior to the Japanese BGM. I was simply defending the fact that it's NOT THAT BAD and that I can watch it just as well as I can with the Japanese BGM. Both good experiences.


And WAIT a minute.... Just because something doesn't follow the 'original' source material, doesn't make the original better by default. One would argue that The Godfather deviated substantially from Mario Puzos original story, or that The Shinning was a very extreme change to what Stephen King wrote, or that Artificial Intelligence is a better telling of the puppet who became a boy than Pinocchio(Pinolo). Just because someone is more of a fan of the altered material doesn't make him any less of a fan than the guy who likes the original. Even in the context of the Dragonball world, the Manga is based off of Journey to The West. That doesn't make every fan of Journey to the West better than Dragon Ball fans.

[VegettoEX]

Dragon Ball is not an adaptation of Journey to the West.

[Bardo117]

Dragon Ball is not an adaptation of Journey to the West.

And Avatar/Dances With Wolves isn't an adaptation of Pocahontas....

[ABED]

Just because something doesn't follow the 'original' source material, doesn't make the original better by default.

I anticipated this sort of response. The dub is such a mishmash of conflicting visuals, acting, music, and characterizations, that it is objectively worse. Feel free to like it, but it's not good by any reasonable esthetic standard. In the Z dub, Goku sounds like a superhero even though his actions prove he's far from it. Kuririn wonders why he didn't become a shoe salesman instead of wishing had gotten married, he uses slang that was out of date even in the 90s (even though the dub was ostensibly changed to appeal to more modern US audiences), Freeza isn't the aristocratic dictator, he's instead a weird overly sexual, bad joke telling, old woman. All of this clashes and doesn't work as a whole. The Godfather, for all the changes the movie made, was a cohesive movie. So it's not about being the original, it's about all of the parts working together to form a whole. The dub is Frankensteined together.

And Avatar/Dances With Wolves isn't an adaptation of Pocahontas....

They aren't. Avatar is a rip off. Dragon Ball takes ideas from Journey to the West, but the tone and style is uniquely Toriyama's.

I'm just sitting over here looking like Zach Braff like, "where do you think we are?"

Wow. That is an obscure reference. Great episode, very sad.

[Zephyr]

Just because something doesn't follow the 'original' source material, doesn't make the original better by default.

I'm not talking about things being better or worse than one another. I'm saying with the changes that Funimation made, it's really not the same show anymore. It's not really Akira Toriyama's and Toei Animation's Dragon Ball, just localized for an English speaking audience; it's Funimation's Draggin' Bawl Zee: a different story following the same skeleton of plot points, about different characters using the same character designs and choreography.

There's a difference between an adaptation and a localization; they have different objectives. The Shining is an adaptation, meant to adapt the source material into a different medium. A dub of an anime is supposed to be a localization; it's meant to simply translate the already existing story for a new audience, not take pieces of it to tell a different one. And Funimation told a different one. That's it. That's all. That's my point. There's nothing wrong with preferring Funimation's story over Toriyama's/Toei's, you just have to realize that it is a different story. And my bewilderment and amusement are peaked when I see people who are fans of Funimation's story come here, a place focused on discussing Toriyama's/Toei's story, and gripe and piss and moan at the overwhelming preference for Toriyama's/Toei's story.

This would be like if a Spanish localization of Stephen King's The Shining took enormous liberties all over the place, with character names, motivations, personalities, etc., but still followed the same basic story structure. The Spanish fanbase is huge, and has their own online communities. Then people from that community go to a community focused just on discussing the actual original version of the story, based on what King actually wrote, and are confused and haughty over the fact that they don't think as highly of the Spanish version. It's like, nah, this is where we go to talk about the actual book, not the officially licensed Spanish parody. There are plenty of other places that focus on the Spanish parody, were we so inclined. Like what you like, and be proud of it, but have some perspective and self-awareness.

[thaman91]

Just because something doesn't follow the 'original' source material, doesn't make the original better by default.

I anticipated this sort of response. The dub is such a mishmash of conflicting visuals, acting, music, and characterizations, that it is objectively worse. Feel free to like it, but it's not good by any reasonable esthetic standard. In the Z dub, Goku sounds like a superhero even though his actions prove he's far from it. Kuririn wonders why he didn't become a shoe salesman instead of wishing had gotten married, he uses slang that was out of date even in the 90s (even though the dub was ostensibly changed to appeal to more modern US audiences), Freeza isn't the aristocratic dictator, he's instead a weird overly sexual, bad joke telling, old woman. All of this clashes and doesn't work as a whole. The Godfather, for all the changes the movie made, was a cohesive movie. So it's not about being the original, it's about all of the parts working together to form a whole. The dub is Frankensteined together.

These points are really overblown though. Goku sounds heroic at times, but at the same time (even within the same episode), he also admits to enjoying the fact that he's about to be fighting a new challenger. So we're presented with both facets of dub Goku's personality simultaneously: that he's a hero and that he likes fighting. So yeah, stuff like the "hope of the universe" speech is cheesy and over-exaggerated, but when everything is looked at as a whole, it doesn't really feel like it clashes. And the Freeza being an "aristocratic dictator" thing is not really something that one would pick up on if they didn't watch the Japanese version or read the manga. He's not animated so specifically such that only an aristocratic speech pattern would work. And again, are his lines cheesy and over-the-top? Yeah they are. Does all this make it worse than the Japanese version? Yeah I guess so. Does it make the dub a bad experience to watch? I'd say no. The cheesy dialogue (which has its own charm), changed tone, and different musical experience make it unique and enjoyable in its own right, although I won't claim that it's better than the Japanese version what with its better acting, consistency across the entire series (not just Z), and more authentic experience.