Buu makes no sense to me

[Zephyr]

Boo's form mechanics kind of irk me despite the "he's magic!" thing. Grey Boo eats Fat Boo and that makes Super Boo... but taking Fat Boo out makes Kid Boo... Why?

Yeah, this is the far and away the more confusing and less logical aspect of Buu's nature. That said, I think sense can still (mostly) be made of it.

Grey Buu and Pure Buu are the same "person", only manifesting in different ways. Inside of the Fat Buu we're initially introduced to, there are two "essences" so to speak: Buu and the Kaioshin. The Kaioshin are now dissolved, so they're part of Buu, but they now make up a distinct part of Buu's physical body, which is why he looks the way he does. The Kaioshin essence is the dominant one, which is why he can still be reasoned with, and why the good half expels the evil half, rather than the other way around.

When the Kaioshin-dominated half expels the evil essence from the body, it's not expelling a solid, physical manifestation. It's expelling the evil essence. This evil essence then manifests itself in a body that is a mirror image of the actual body. Think of it like Piccolo Daimao being a mirror image of the body he was expelled from, only more twisted because Buu is a crazy bubblegum genie.

Next, the evil body absorbs the good body, and then metamorphosizes. He looks more like the actual Buu's original physical body, because the actual Buu essence is now once again more in control (but still with the Kaioshin's essence giving him an upgrade, and hence he's taller and semi-rational). Though he's reabsorbed the Good Buu, he absorbed the actual body, and the actual body has not yet dissolved.

When Good Buu's body is removed from Evil Buu's, there are two things going on that are different from when Grey Buu emerged from Fat Buu:
1. Good Buu was the base expelling the unwanted part, whereas now it is Evil Buu as the base expelling the unwanted part.
2. Good Buu didn't expel a body, he expelled an essence that then manifested as a body. Evil Buu is expelling a body, rather than an essence that then needs to manifest as a body.

Still doesn't explain why Evil Buu changes physically when he loses the Kaioshin essence, but Good Buu doesn't change physically when he loses the Buu essence. But, oh well. Nothing's perfectly logical, especially when dealing with alien demon bubblegum genies in a gag manga, and that's the kind of shit I'm still on board for to begin with. Hence, even though this isn't a 100% airtight explanation, it does the job well enough for the story to coherently function (which, again, is a miracle considering the breadth of the material and the author's creative process), and I'm not about to lose sleep over it.

[Desassina]

My answer to that question is that, upon evil Buu absorbing the good one, his evil returned to fat Buu with an outer appearance consisting of super Buu. Everything was stored in the original fat one, with an outer layer made of another Buu, so that when he was ripped out and kid Buu took over, the latter could access South Kaioshin from the inside, before losing grip and storing fat Buu to a corner. If kid Buu allowed himself to use the fatso's power, then he would be tainted by all of his content, but power up due to him being another Buu. In other words:

kid Buu + fat Buu = super Buu, but he wouldn't allow himself to get tainted.
evil Buu + good Buu = super Buu, when his evil shaped his body into his prime.
fat Buu + training = slim Buu, because he unlocked his power without using evil.

[Lord Beerus]

Boo's form mechanics kind of irk me despite the "he's magic!" thing. Grey Boo eats Fat Boo and that makes Super Boo... but taking Fat Boo out makes Kid Boo... Why?

That is without a doubt one of Dragon Ball's most glaring continuity errors. It's up there with Super Perfect Cell somehow existing when he shouldn't.

[ABED]

I think you guys are trying to make something fit when it clearly doesn't.

[Zephyr]

I dunno, I thought I explained pretty clearly how it fit just fine. I was hoping for a substantive response to my reasoning, rather than a glorified "lol nah".

[ABED]

I dunno, I thought I explained pretty clearly how it fit just fine. I was hoping for a substantive response to my reasoning, rather than a glorified "lol nah".

It comes off as little more than trying to make it work because you want it to. You clearly put more thought into this than Toriyama. His storytelling is simple. Your explanation is complex, far too complex than DB ever attempts.

[rereboy]

The difference is that one transformation was created by Buu himself, a natural process. The other was forced upon him, by removing by force a great deal of himself. A close comparison would be a computer updating itself and dividing the hardrive versus a computer crashing and having to be formatted.

[Kokonoe]

Was there ever a time where it showed Buu blasted to bits and then it immediately showed us the pods inside of him with full confirmation of how large they are? I just checked the manga, and there are none. Hell, there's not a single moment after absorption happens (or showing that the pods are a thing) where Buu gets blown to bits at all! Unless this happened in the anime, you're citing sequences that didn't happen.

Of course, there's Mr. Buu, who was later revealed to have been placed into a pod after being eaten, and Buu was indeed blown to bits after eating him. Unfortunately for the validity of this particular gripe, they in fact never show us the pod that Mr. Buu is in during the period where the evil Buu is in pieces. So.....there's never an instance where Buu is in pieces and they simultaneously show us the pods at their default size. So any assertion of anything having been going on "the entire time" is being made based on incomplete evidence. And, given the breadth of circumstances being commented on, having complete information is sort of important.

Off the top of my head, when Vegeta self destructs against Majin Buu, he's blasted to pieces and reforms. There should be a Grand Supreme Kai pod inside of him just like the other Buu's. There is also a moment where he impales Buu right in the stomach and rips off his antenna, which is damaging two parts of his body. It's hard to imagine these pods were somehow missed.

I mean, other than the fact that they're still there inside of him, rather than outside of him, after all of those times he's been blown to bits. I mean, honestly, what makes less sense here: that they leave his body when it is divided and just poof back into it at some point, or that they shrink in order to stay inside when his body is divided? The former would seem to necessitate that Buu loses his absorptions temporarily. The subsequent drop in ki would surely have been commented on in the RoSaT by Piccolo and Gotenks, if they had actually undone Buu's recent powerup (which had just recently scared them shitless) just by blasting him.

I just think that opens up more sticky cans of worms than just assuming "oh they just shrink more to stay inside the body".

That Buu's body shrinks them doesn't necessitate that Buu is the one consciously shrinking them. That Buu literally has a restroom emergency suggests (at least in the anime) that he doesn't control 100% of his bodily functions.

Well even if he cannot alter the size and it's not his own doing, there is nothing shown that he can or cannot shrink them further. It's a clear set size, and they attach to pods that go with his biological function. The ability to shrink them further would most likely mess with his biology to the point where they wouldn't connect right. I want to note that you mentioned manga as a reference earlier and are now citing anime as a plausible reference.

Gonna have to super disagree here. That Toriyama continued drawing this shit for this long after he'd already hit the series' logical apex with Freeza, and continued to make it as well done and entertaining as it was, is nothing short of admirable. He's more than entitled to throw caution to the wind and make an absolutely bonkers finale. In-universe consistency and making complete sense isn't what makes Dragon Ball appealing, and it's not something Dragon Ball is particular great at in the first place. That this shit was made up as it went along and makes as much sense as it already does is miraculous and indicative of a great deal of effort. Or, at least as much effort as could be reasonably expected of someone who'd been long since burnt out on drawing this stuff for 10 years.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then cause I honestly felt for the most part there was at least a certain level of consistency that I found enjoyable in his writing, and this saga in particular had too many flaws that hurt my enjoyment. It's still very entertaining, but still.

It's one thing to criticize something for not making 100% complete sense (and again, when it comes to a series that is at least in part a gag manga, that criticism seems ultimately ill-placed), but it's another entirely to suggest that it not making complete sense is indicative of "not enough effort". Sometimes it takes a herculean effort just to keep something this long as fresh as it is, something this unplanned as well-written as it is.

It takes a lot of effort, and I do not deny this, but a flaw is a flaw at the end of the day to me. Either or not one can cope with said flaws is up to the individual. Everything has flaws.

[Desassina]

I dunno, I thought I explained pretty clearly how it fit just fine. I was hoping for a substantive response to my reasoning, rather than a glorified "lol nah".

Same. I do have a critic towards yours though. Evil Buu should not be the same as kid Buu. He was fat Buu's evil and the personality of super Buu. The latter said that he wouldn't be himself in case fat Buu was ripped out and kid Buu felt different than both. You had two of them with a split in power after it rose, and another two in the end as their original selves, but only two others being shown alone (super Buu and buff Buu). I would argue that evil Buu was South Kaioshin dominant on a separate body, while in super Buu's he wasn't himself, but kid Buu pulling from a reattached fat Buu.

[Captain Strawberry]

It's a gag manga, simple.

[ABED]

Off the top of my head, when Vegeta self destructs against Majin Buu, he's blasted to pieces and reforms. There should be a Grand Supreme Kai pod inside of him just like the other Buu's. There is also a moment where he impales Buu right in the stomach and rips off his antenna, which is damaging two parts of his body. It's hard to imagine these pods were somehow missed.

That's not how it works. Even though the logic isn't airtight, it's clear that's not how it works. If you don't destroy Buu completely, everything in his body is fine. It's not like if you shoot his head off, then everything in his head is destroyed before he regenerates.

[Zephyr]

Alright, this is getting very close to the "I'm literally just repeating myself" phase. Apologies if I stop responding.

It comes off as little more than trying to make it work because you want it to. You clearly put more thought into this than Toriyama. His storytelling is simple. Your explanation is complex, far too complex than DB ever attempts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all suggesting that this whole "essences vs bodies" thing, or the Kaioshin "dissolving", was Toriyama's deliberate and explicit thought process.

But the circumstances surrounding Evil Buu's expulsion from Good Buu (which gave us Grey Buu) are different from the circumstances surrounding Good Buu's removal from Evil Buu's wiring (which gave us Pure Buu). These are facts. These are things Toriyama drew. It takes minimal effort to observe that circumstances are different. The commonalities between the circumstances (Good and Evil Buu being separated) doesn't erase the differences. And also Buu's a magical alien. So I don't see any issue with both Grey Buu and Pure Buu being different manifestations of Evil Buu.

That I can pick up the pieces Toriyama set up (the different circumstances causing Evil Buu to manifest in different ways) and arrange them to extrapolate a coherent explanation for why these different circumstances cause Evil Buu to manifest in different ways is partially what I meant when "it's a miracle that this shit makes as much sense as it does despite Toriyama's writing style".

There should be a Grand Supreme Kai pod inside of him just like the other Buu's.

We still are never shown pods, at their normal size, inside of Fat Buu while he's being blown to bits. So my point still stands: there's nothing contradictory about the pods being able to shrink further. Thus, the pods being able to shrink further has explanatory power.

there is nothing shown that he can or cannot shrink them further

Yes, exactly. So, acting like the suggestion that he can shrink them further is untenable is strange to me. If it can go either way, and one way has more explanatory power, why is issue being taken with it?

The ability to shrink them further would most likely mess with his biology to the point where they wouldn't connect right.

And now you're inventing rules in order to stifle explanation. I should point out that, yes, this whole discussion involves coming up with hypothetical rules for how Buu works in order to make sense of it. But if your goal is indeed to make sense of it, then any rules being made up should be for making sense of things, not for obfuscating them further.

I want to note that you mentioned manga as a reference earlier and are now citing anime as a plausible reference.

There's nothing wrong with that when they're presenting consistent information. I cited the manga, because that was quick and easy to check. I never ruled out checking the anime, but I'm not personally going to slog through a dozen post-absorption episodes for it. I even said: "Unless this happened in the anime, you're citing sequences that didn't happen." The intended implication being that examples from the anime were also fair game. The example from the anime in particular that I cited, about involuntary biological functions, serves to further solidify the explanatory power of "his body just shrinks the pods".

We'll just have to agree to disagree then cause I honestly felt for the most part there was at least a certain level of consistency that I found enjoyable in his writing, and this saga in particular had too many flaws that hurt my enjoyment. It's still very entertaining, but still.

I mean, your enjoyment being negatively impacted is unfortunate, and I mean that sincerely. But the idea that he needed to (or could have) put more effort into the complete logical consistency of things is something I'm hesitant to regard as the sort of matter people just "agree to disagree" on. The dude worked himself harder than he ever needed to, for far longer than he ever needed to. Insisting that this exhausted motherfucker take even more extra time and effort, and write against his trademark style that makes the series entertaining in the first place, just to prevent some fandom pedantry decades later is sorely lacking in perspective.

Is the story weaker in some regards as a result of all of this? Sure, I won't deny that. Was Toriyama at all obligated or even likely capable of making it any stronger than he made it there at the end? I'm really not seeing a strong case for that. His fumes were running on fumes by that point.

[KBABZ]

I think most things about Buu make more sense if you assume that everything about him is supposed to troll his opponents.

[Kokonoe]

Alright, this is getting very close to the "I'm literally just repeating myself" phase. Apologies if I stop responding.

I mean I could say the same thing.

There should be a Grand Supreme Kai pod inside of him just like the other Buu's.

We still are never shown pods, at their normal size, inside of Fat Buu while he's being blown to bits. So my point still stands: there's nothing contradictory about the pods being able to shrink further. Thus, the pods being able to shrink further has explanatory power.

So if we're going to use the logic that "We still are never shown", then that opens up another issue. If we're saying Fat Buu didn't have the pod system, why does Super Buu have a pod system when they both absorb the same way? When Kid Buu absorbed the Kai, he transformed into the Fat Buu we know of, but before that he was Kid Buu aka Evil Buu.

Yes, exactly. So, acting like the suggestion that he can shrink them further is untenable is strange to me. If it can go either way, and one way has more explanatory power, why is issue being taken with it?

So once again, if we are only opening up variables to what is shown, then you cannot claim Buu's body has this ability to shrink things further.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then cause I honestly felt for the most part there was at least a certain level of consistency that I found enjoyable in his writing, and this saga in particular had too many flaws that hurt my enjoyment. It's still very entertaining, but still.

I mean, your enjoyment being negatively impacted is unfortunate, and I mean that sincerely. But the idea that he needed to (or could have) put more effort into the complete logical consistency of things is something I'm hesitant to regard as the sort of matter people just "agree to disagree" on. The dude worked himself harder than he ever needed to, for far longer than he ever needed to. Insisting that this exhausted motherfucker take even more extra time and effort, and write against his trademark style that makes the series entertaining in the first place, just to prevent some fandom pedantry decades later is sorely lacking in perspective.

Is the story weaker in some regards as a result of all of this? Sure, I won't deny that. Was Toriyama at all obligated or even likely capable of making it any stronger than he made it there at the end? I'm really not seeing a strong case for that. His fumes were running on fumes by that point.

This is a very odd way to reflect criticism towards a story. Just because the manga is long and got tiring for him doesn't make the story immune to criticism for it's inconsistencies. We all love Toriyama, but there's no need to make an excuse for poor writing in certain aspects of the story. Showing criticism in some ways is a sign of appreciation when used properly.

Off the top of my head, when Vegeta self destructs against Majin Buu, he's blasted to pieces and reforms. There should be a Grand Supreme Kai pod inside of him just like the other Buu's. There is also a moment where he impales Buu right in the stomach and rips off his antenna, which is damaging two parts of his body. It's hard to imagine these pods were somehow missed.

That's not how it works. Even though the logic isn't airtight, it's clear that's not how it works. If you don't destroy Buu completely, everything in his body is fine. It's not like if you shoot his head off, then everything in his head is destroyed before he regenerates.

Well I mean like, I'm aware that's how Buu works, but the non Buu beings inside him are still themselves, no? Goku and Vegeta were going to be digested at some point so I don't think they gained Buu's powers. Plus like even if the pods are somehow different, the character's have souls and I doubt they would be split all over the place.

[ABED]

I always took it that the inside of Buu's body was like another dimension (pardon the phrase).

[Forte224]

I always took it that the inside of Buu's body was like another dimension (pardon the phrase).

I was actually just thinking this, haha. Only issue there is when Goku and Vegeta flew out one of his steam holes. Otherwise that theory works pretty well

[ABED]

I always took it that the inside of Buu's body was like another dimension (pardon the phrase).

I was actually just thinking this, haha. Only issue there is when Goku and Vegeta flew out one of his steam holes. Otherwise that theory works pretty well

Yeah, I thought of that as well.