Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by precita » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:29 pm

A bit of both, I mean the fights in Super don't give you the impression the characters are millions of times stronger than they were back in DBZ...even though we know they are.

They did something interesting when Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were fighting and they said the universal was shattering due to their insane power...but that was dropped afterward. And we know Goku got millions of times stronger after so it doesn't make sense.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Forte224 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:39 pm

precita wrote:A bit of both, I mean the fights in Super don't give you the impression the characters are millions of times stronger than they were back in DBZ...even though we know they are.

They did something interesting when Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku were fighting and they said the universal was shattering due to their insane power...but that was dropped afterward. And we know Goku got millions of times stronger after so it doesn't make sense.
Once again though, that's pretty much the case since Goku went Super Saiyan against Freeza. The characters got tons stronger from then to Boo but the fights never really seemed much different because there weren't any new abilities, just another Super Saiyan form or Fusion and the characters giving us exposition on how strong they were now.

There were a couple exceptions like Goku vs. Cell but overall things looked pretty same-y without interesting techniques like Kaioken. If anything, Ultra Instinct Goku gave the best feeling of an increase in power in a long time

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by DBZimran » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:37 am

I have always felt that Super lacked the atmosphere and seriousness that it's predecessors had. It's most likely that Super airs on a Sunday at 9am in a time where Japan doesn't show as much violence and gore to children like it did when DBZ aired. I thought Super would eventually get that same feeling back. Aside from a few Goku Black Arc episodes and the most recent special it really has not.
For me I don't consider Super or post 2013 BOG-era as a pure continuation of Dragon Ball. I may once they actually start to introduce Uub, give Goten and Trunks a growth spurt and Pan grows up a little.

For now it's just weird considering dbz had more material that happened after these events that are occurring in Super. It's getting difficult to buy that Goku didn't meet Vegeta and Bulma for 5 or so years at the end of DBZ. These inconsistencies just make me feel like this whole post 2013 material is just spin-off content. I can honestly say that I do love the Super Manga although that has its owns level of inconsistency.

I've been around since 2008 and became a forum member in 2010, I've seen the resurgence of the series and the views of the site admins at each moment in time: when the 2008 special was announced, when kai was announced etc. There is just so much more activity on the forums, I do agree it has a different feel. I joined the forum as a avid lover of the Westwood dub, now I barely watch anything but the original Japanese version. Thanks to Mike's influence even have come to enjoy the hit song collections.

It was easier to enjoy these things before 2013 before there wasn't anything new so I spent most of my time looking back at the history. I feel for some new fans who may not ever get to read old Toriyama interviews or listen to some of the best kanzenshuu podcasts. Prior we had a new game to look forward to each year, and merchandise. We wanted a weekly series though back then so I guess we got it. It does feel like the thing I cherished and studied in detail has now become very popular once again.

Just my thoughts on post-2013, comparing it to how I felt prior to this.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:19 am

DBZimran wrote: For now it's just weird considering dbz had more material that happened after these events that are occurring in Super. It's getting difficult to buy that Goku didn't meet Vegeta and Bulma for 5 or so years at the end of DBZ. These inconsistencies just make me feel like this whole post 2013 material is just spin-off content. I can honestly say that I do love the Super Manga although that has its owns level of inconsistency.

I've been thinking of this line and one I don't really mind if they retcon it. I think it is an easy one too we can just say Bulma was exaggerating a bit. Kuririn also mentions not seeing Goku.

Or heck maybe they all don't get together at gatherings but see each other only quickly during dire circumstances. So I think there is a way to get around this line. Which honestly was a line I hated in the original anyways. And I'd be happy if they did retcon it.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:43 am

Kinokima wrote:
DBZimran wrote: For now it's just weird considering dbz had more material that happened after these events that are occurring in Super. It's getting difficult to buy that Goku didn't meet Vegeta and Bulma for 5 or so years at the end of DBZ. These inconsistencies just make me feel like this whole post 2013 material is just spin-off content. I can honestly say that I do love the Super Manga although that has its owns level of inconsistency.

I've been thinking of this line and one I don't really mind if they retcon it. I think it is an easy one too we can just say Bulma was exaggerating a bit. Kuririn also mentions not seeing Goku.

Or heck maybe they all don't get together at gatherings but see each other only quickly during dire circumstances. So I think there is a way to get around this line. Which honestly was a line I hated in the original anyways. And I'd be happy if they did retcon it.
Personally I buy it, slightly. Mainly because this exact thing appeared to happen in the five years before Raditz showed up, so it's not like Goku hasn't done this sort of thing before. Not to mention his world training after the Red Ribbon arc and the Baba Yaga Saga.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:23 am

KBABZ wrote:Personally I buy it, slightly. Mainly because this exact thing appeared to happen in the five years before Raditz showed up, so it's not like Goku hasn't done this sort of thing before. Not to mention his world training after the Red Ribbon arc and the Baba Yaga Saga.
I absolutely bought it in the context of the original run. (And I really liked it, actually. The implication was that after the Boo arc, things get more quiet and substantially less fantastical, which plays into the ending and was even something GT, for all its faults, picks up on).

Now that Vegeta and Goku are constant training partners trying to attain this whole new level of power, I buy it a lot less. I'm pretty sure the chronology is already completely off given Pan's age regardless.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by lancerman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:32 am

precita wrote:It's kind of funny because all the complaints people used to have about the Boo saga back then have now been replaced by Super, because now Super kicks up everything like new Super Saiyan transformations, new godly beings, new power level gaps, etc. up to eleven.

I mentioned this before, but if you told anyone 10 years ago that Freeza would come back, and he would become more powerful than Cell, Buu, Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan and even Super Saiyan Vegetto, people would have laughed and told you to stop reading crappy fanfiction. Nearly everything that has happened in Super would have sounded, "odd" or "fanfic-tier" if you told someone about it a decade ago.
True but if you said to someone as the Saiyan arc was halkenint that they would bring back the Red Ribbon army by retconning a scientist to make killer Androids that would destroy the future and Bulma and Vegeta's son would go back in time to warn the heroes, that would have sounded like fan fiction too.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by sintzu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:45 am

DBZimran wrote:I have always felt that Super lacked the atmosphere and seriousness that it's predecessors had. It's most likely that Super airs on a Sunday at 9am in a time where Japan doesn't show as much violence and gore to children like it did when DBZ aired.
One Piece airs at the same time yet is just as serious as it's always been. What makes Super different from before is that the original 2 anime were based on a manga that was made to tell a story, Super is made to sell merchandise. The original manga was also made by one person while Super has multiple parties involved in its creation, making it a lot more inconsistant. There's also the fact that One Piece is the biggest thing in Japan so you can see how they're trying to make DB be similar to it which hasn't worked very well.
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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Duo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:39 am

VegettoEX and Kunzait have both knocked it out of the ball park in terms of responding to this question, so I'll just add a couple cents to the dollar as best I can.

Something that became very annoying before 2013 was seeing the same arguments pop up over and over generating massive threads of rage fueled discussions. Examples: Which Majin Buu is the strongest? Was Gohan Super Saiyan vanilla or 2 when fighting Dabura / Broli (M10)? Could Vegeta turn Super Saiyan 2 prior to the Majin spell? How strong is Ultimate Gohan?

I could name more from the movies and older arcs, but the Buu-era is the ripest piece of fruit. Since 2013, I feel like these have been popping up many times more than previously, not to mention the absurd amount from Super content (Ssj God vs Ssj4, Hit vs Majin Super 17 whatever the hell is going on in Heroes). It's exasperating and inescapable when there are so many new people rolling in with inflated ego's and untested opinions.

Every new transformation wears out the concept a bit further as well. There will always be a group of people that want Goku to turn into Super Saiyan 4 with golden fur and destroy Beerus / Jiren / Hit / Omni-King.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by precita » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:23 pm

I also find it kinda odd why they didn't go with a full reboot of Dragonball instead of a continuation. Usually with a series over for nearly 20 years they would decide to start form scratch again rather than do some quick continuation of a show that ended two decades ago in Japan.

Just think, all the kids from the 80's/90's who watched Dragonball in Japan have got to be 40-50+ year olds by now. How many of those 40-50+ year olds are watching Super?

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by DBZimran » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:54 pm

sintzu wrote:One Piece airs at the same time yet is just as serious as it's always been. What makes Super different from before is that the original 2 anime were based on a manga that was made to tell a story, Super is made to sell merchandise. The original manga was also made by one person while Super has multiple parties involved in its creation, making it a lot more inconsistant. There's also the fact that One Piece is the biggest thing in Japan so you can see how they're trying to make DB be similar to it which hasn't worked very well.
Anybody who watches One Piece including myself will tell you that the series has taken a nose dive in atmosphere and quality since The New World portion of the series began. The only thing One Piece has is the blue prints to a great story outlined in the manga. That is what is giving it the seriousness that it has. One Piece is in direct competition with Dragon Ball I am sure the latest Bandai Namco Fiscal earnings showed that Dragon Ball beat One Piece in domestic and foreign sales. They have succeeded in re-establishing Dragon Ball, but like you said the intention wasn't to create the most riveting or interesting series. Just a cash grab. I feel like that is what is making me feel so conflicted about post-2013 era. Back then it was about the money also, but we had a manga which told a story we could all fall in love with. It wasn't just about pulling a new transformation from your ass, just to sell a few figures. Each form had meaning and struggle to it.

Compare how Vegeta stood at the mountain top for 3 days after his defeat at the hands of Android 18. His struggle, monologue and motivation was very convincing. He stood on top of a similar mountain episode 13 (I think) of Super and was frustrated and wanted to power up. I can't even remember the reasoning he had, but that's my point it wasn't memorable.
precita wrote:I also find it kinda odd why they didn't go with a full reboot of Dragonball instead of a continuation.

That's what Kai pretty much was. A cheap reboot.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by sintzu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:30 pm

DBZimran wrote:Anybody who watches One Piece including myself will tell you that the series has taken a nose dive in atmosphere and quality since The New World portion of the series began.

Compare how Vegeta stood at the mountain top for 3 days after his defeat at the hands of Android 18. His struggle, monologue and motivation was very convincing. He stood on top of a similar mountain episode 13 (I think) of Super and was frustrated and wanted to power up. I can't even remember the reasoning he had, but that's my point it wasn't memorable.
I've heared it isn't as good as it used to be. I just finished Thriller bark so I'm waaaay behind.

The biggest problem with Super's characters compared to the original is how empty they feel. In the original we see Goku growing to accept his Saiyan side, going from being a student to being a teacher, etc. We see Vegeta struggle with surrounding himself with good guys and how he can't let go of his evil past, We see Gohan going from a cry Baby to wanting to protect his friends but also live the life he wants and there's many more. The original had such great multi-demensional characters but with Super they just feel very one sided. What I don't understand is that they've showed the ability to write them well like with Goku and Roshi when he thought he died so why can't we get more of that ? Or with Vegeta and Cabba. There are pieces here and there of good writing but for some reason they don't keep it up.
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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:08 pm

sintzu wrote:
DBZimran wrote:Anybody who watches One Piece including myself will tell you that the series has taken a nose dive in atmosphere and quality since The New World portion of the series began.

Compare how Vegeta stood at the mountain top for 3 days after his defeat at the hands of Android 18. His struggle, monologue and motivation was very convincing. He stood on top of a similar mountain episode 13 (I think) of Super and was frustrated and wanted to power up. I can't even remember the reasoning he had, but that's my point it wasn't memorable.
I've heared it isn't as good as it used to be. I just finished Thriller bark so I'm waaaay behind.

The biggest problem with Super's characters compared to the original is how empty they feel. In the original we see Goku growing to accept his Saiyan side, going from being a student to being a teacher, etc. We see Vegeta struggle with surrounding himself with good guys and how he can't let go of his evil past, We see Gohan going from a cry Baby to wanting to protect his friends but also live the life he wants and there's many more. The original had such great multi-demensional characters but with Super they just feel very one sided. What I don't understand is that they've showed the ability to write them well like with Goku and Roshi when he thought he died so why can't we get more of that ? Or with Vegeta and Cabba. There are pieces here and there of good writing but for some reason they don't keep it up.
It's called development. Goku accepted his Saiyan heritage and has moved on, Vegeta has accepted where he is and has moved on. Gohan still wants to protect his loved one's... Don't see the issue here at all. We've seen many sides to Goku and Vegeta in DBS. In fact the characters in DBS feel like actual characters than they ever did in "Z". We see Goku, work provide and generally hang out with his family all the time, same with Gohan we're actually seeing him live the life he wanted and even Vegeta has shown so many instances of being an actual person instead of mopping all the time like he's an edgy teenager.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:03 pm

In fact the characters in DBS feel like actual characters than they ever did in "Z".
So your view of what a character is is hanging out with family?
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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:28 pm

ABED wrote:
In fact the characters in DBS feel like actual characters than they ever did in "Z".
So your view of what a character is is hanging out with family?

I don't really see how the characters interacting with their family doesn't give them depth. I think the characters in Z had depth and I think they continue to grow naturally in Super.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:59 am

Kinokima wrote:
ABED wrote:
In fact the characters in DBS feel like actual characters than they ever did in "Z".
So your view of what a character is is hanging out with family?

I don't really see how the characters interacting with their family doesn't give them depth. I think the characters in Z had depth and I think they continue to grow naturally in Super.
I don't see how that alone gives them depth. Depth is about what the characters want, their psychology.
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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by Kinokima » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:40 am

ABED wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
ABED wrote:So your view of what a character is is hanging out with family?

I don't really see how the characters interacting with their family doesn't give them depth. I think the characters in Z had depth and I think they continue to grow naturally in Super.
I don't see how that alone gives them depth. Depth is about what the characters want, their psychology.

Well I never said that alone gives the characters depth but it does add to their characterization. Dragon Ball is a fighting series but the fact that it actually gives us slice of life moments makes the characters feel well rounded. They actually have lives beyond fighting and that actually makes me care about them more. But as for motivations and psychology:

* Gohan who doesn't love to fight now wants to train and fight again to protect his family. I think I understand that motivation and it does add to his character for me. And I love that Gohan actually has become a scholar which is what he wanted to be since he was a small child.
* Goku of course just loves fighting for fighting sake and is always looking for the next most powerful opponent. Goku is probably the character that has changed the least but I think that was the same in Z. A lot of his character development happened in Dragon Ball in my opinion. But Goku will continue to find new ways to overcome his limits, to push forward.
* Vegeta also loves fighting and wants to get stronger. Vegeta's motivation hasn't really changed from Z he still wants to get stronger than Goku it's just no longer an antagonistic rivalry. But the fact that he also has a family he cares about (in fact he will even forgo training for his family) shows he has grown to not only think about himself & surpassing Goku is a goal not as much of an obsession as it once was.

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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:58 am

Subject matter for another topic, please and thank you, folks! :)
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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:33 am

Gokuu growing up, getting married, having kids and saving the world even once are still the worst fan fiction elements of Dragon Ball. Like, jeez, talk about jumping the shark.

Like sands through the hourglass, these are the days of our lives. I still remember (albeit poorly) hoping onto the internet through AOL to look up the latest about Dragon Ball and its violence and blood back in the late 1990s. I remember the International Channel, with it's obviously local station budgeting, and I still remember begging my parents to buy the new edited Dragon Ball Z VHS from Target every first Tuesday of the month for $9.99 each. Hell, I still remember how I first discovered that FUNimation was releasing the rest of the series on VHS back in 1999! I was at the dentist (I have a dental cleaning today, actually) and overheard a girl talking with her parent about needing to get the new tape. A while later, I was at Suncoast video and saw the first two uncut VHS tapes! Yes, I bought Double Cross, since they were $19.99 each, because it had--holy shit--four episodes! I remembered being confused as to why the voices sounded all different, too, and I was only, what, eight or nine? Life back then is no distant memory, it's still very much real.

If it weren't for the occasional reminder that Dragon Ball Evolution existed I'd probably forget about it, though. That time period between 2008-2009 is when this forum really started to change into whatever it is now, I feel. The influx of new, more casual fans with their growing obsessions with mimicking Hollywood or the US and applying it to Dragon Ball because a big thing. Then there were the battle power fans coming in to buy up all of the remaining real-estate.

Reading Kunzait's posts always make me wish there was a book about the first, second, and third generation of US anime fans, though. Their generations seemed so fascinating, even if I did dip my toes a little in the VHS fansub era a little.
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Re: Does the franchise/fandom pre-2013 (pre Beerus and Super) now feel like a distant memory?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 am

What years would you classify each generation?
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