DB - A Superhero Story?

[ABED]

It’s not adherently a traditional super hero story. That being said, they are superheroes. Not all superheroes go out of their way to find problems to solve, some just stumble upon a problem and solve it, which is what our Dragon Fighterz do. The X-men a lot of times, for example, just life peacefully until something threatens them or earth.

The X-Men still actively monitor for threats to mutants. THey also don't intentionally create the problems for them to solve.

[Kunzait_83]

Goku lets Freeza go because he wants a good fight, but even he realizes that there are limits and this guy is destroying the earth and killing your loved ones, it's time to think of the greater good, and he learned from that.

No... no he doesn't. At all.

Right after he lets Freeza go, Freeza loses it and tries to attack and kill him from behind. Only THEN does Goku launch what he believes to be a killing blast, finishing him off. He only kills Freeza when Freeza spurns his mercy and tries to kill him with an attack from the rear.

Freeza luckily survives this and comes to Earth, where he's stopped (for good this time... until Super at least now) in short order by none other than... Trunks. Our pragmatic, sci fi action hero/martial artist hybrid. Goku only ever defeated Freeza during this instance in another timeline of events we never even get to see.

What does Goku then do IMMEDIATELY after this? Literally like, within minutes later? Turns down Bulma's sensible idea of finding and destroying Gero's lab and creations well before they're finished in order for himself and the others to test their skills against new exciting opponents, etc. etc.

In the Boo arc, does Goku take Kaioshin's warnings about Boo's threat at all seriously and act with extreme haste to stop Babidi before he can unleash the thing from its egg? Hardly: both he and the rest of the warriors make merry sport of navigating and fighting through Babidi's Game of Death-like spaceship, much more invested in testing their skills against his gang of fighters and still basically acting like they're still in a Budokai tournament mindset. When Vegeta is turned by the Majin charm, Goku elects to settle their rivalry and have his big throwdown with him then and there, knowing full well that doing so risks Boo being hatched early. Gohan and Kaioshin try their best to destroy the egg beforehand, but to no avail: Boo is released, and its largely due to Goku and Vegeta not really taking the gravity of the situation seriously from out the gate. Because they simply aren't planet protectors.

And even after all THAT, Goku STILL decides to take this as an opportunity to give Goten and Trunks a great big training exercise so the two can grow as fighters, rather than try to put an end to Boo's rampage as quickly as possible. Its ONLY when Boo has thoroughly decimated the entire planet Earth and turns his sights on the rest of existence that Goku finally takes on something that resembles a more protector-like role and fights Boo largely to stop him... and even THEN, he and Vegeta choose not to either fuse nor fight in unison and gain a significant advantage, but instead to fight separately to pit their individual skills against Boo.

EVERY single step of the way, testing the limits of their abilities largely remains the majority of the characters' top priority (Goku's especially), and saving the planet a secondary (sometimes in some cases not even that) consequence. Almost as if, rather than defenders of truth and justice etc, they were competitive fighters whose entire lives revolve around growing and honing their mystical kung fu skills against worthy challenges.

At NO point does Goku learn a DAMN thing about putting "the greater good" over the opportunity to test and challenge himself as a warrior. Certainly not after he faces and defeats Freeza on Namek. Closest he shows to this is his electing to remain dead after Cell in an attempt to stem the tide of increasingly powerful opponents looking to endanger his friends, family, and home in order to challenge him.

No he's not a complete psycho or anything resembling an anti-hero, and if innocent lives are being threatened right there in front of him, he's DAMN sure gonna do something about it, absolutely. Martial artists protect others as well as themselves... but mainly on a situational, take-it-as-it-comes-along basis and NOT as a top-of-the list priority in life. Their top priority most all times is the thrill and challenge of the fight. A central character dynamic which is not at all unique or exclusive to Dragon Ball in any which way, but rather is a fundamental core aspect of Wuxia and martial arts fiction in general: personal growth as a fighter - up to and including competition with other fighters as well - being the main focus, and defending and protecting innocents from bullying/thuggish fighters secondary... if not just straight up optional depending on the story in question.

Again, this central theme doesn't just characterize Dragon Ball individually: its baked into the root foundations of its very genre itself. An entire genre where you can more than readily find incalculable examples of characters exceedingly similar if not outright identical in their goals and motivations and general attitudes to Goku and co. - just without the trademark Toriyama visuals and humor/charm. A genre where these kinds of characters are absolutely and without question considered to be heroes unequivocally... just heroes within an ENTIRELY different cultural and storytelling context and definition than Western superheroes are.

Muten Roshi sums it up directly and blatantly for the audience right there plainly within the series itself.





Those are NOT my words about Goku up above: those are Toriyama's/Muten Roshi's.

The X-men a lot of times, for example, just life peacefully until something threatens them or earth.

I feel pretty ridiculous at this point having to even go into another spiel like this yet again about something other than Dragon Ball on here, but there's no getting around it here: someone who says something like that very clearly hasn't much real experience with or even basic knowledge or understanding about the X-Men. Certainly at least not within the actual Marvel comics themselves (other non-comics media's a whole other matter entirely).

In the comics, the X-Men are a hybrid of social activists and superheroes. When they aren't fighting evil mutant supervillains or saving the world from Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix, what have you, they spend a LOT of their time trying to effect social change for mutant rights among normal humans. This ranges from Xavier and Hank/Beast participating in televised national political debates with major political figures, to seeking out, taking in, and training troubled young mutants from all across the globe who have run away/been ostracized from their homes for their abilities, to giving speeches and talks at live public events about mutant rights and equality, and at times even to searching for cures and medical treatments for mutant-centric diseases, and on and on and on down an endless, bottomless list of the superhero equivalent of political and social advocacy.

When they aren't engaging in more traditional "beat the bad guys" superheroics (which they still do more than their fair share of, make no mistake), the X-Men still work with tireless commitment to helping better the overall mutant community as well as improving human and mutant relations in any big or small way that they can. Oftentimes their main villains aren't even their usual rogues gallery of conventional costumed supervillains like Magneto or Mr. Sinister, Stryfe, Mojo, etc. Many times it is simply other anti-mutant governments like Genosha (where political action is used to fight them as much as actual physical combat), or corrupt U.S. government officials like Henry Gyrich or Steven Lang who have an exe to grind against the mutant community, or misfit outcast mutant subcultures like the Morlocks (whom are as much victims themselves as they are any sort of threat, and whom the X-Men try to genuinely help more so than fight with).

Sometimes, some stories might have the X-Men taking a chill vacay for a bit when a baddie comes calling and wrecks their day, forcing them into action: but those are hardly the norm nor are they indicative of the majority of storylines found throughout that series.

The X-Men are clearly, obviously, blatantly, demonstrably INCREDIBLY proactive, socially engaged heroes whose whole entire reason for being is to directly effect deep, DEEP change for the better within the world and society at large: certainly at least towards their main goals which are as much political and social justice oriented (yeah that's right kids: the X-Men are THE actual, literal, superhero Social Justice Warriors) as they are the usual superheroic "save the world, protect the human race from evildoers" and so on.

The Z Warriors meanwhile are a ragtag, loosely connected assortment of weirdo, quirky masters of mystical martial arts who live FAR from most forms of civilization, are often completely isolated from most of society, keep largely to themselves, and tend to be almost totally wrapped up within their own personal lives, their martial arts training, their warriors' rivalries and feuds, some of which at times spill out into the regular world, which ends up getting saved in the end largely as a consequence and byproduct of their winning (which they don't even ALWAYS do every battle by any stretch, and regular innocents pay DEARLY for it) rather than from any real concerted effort towards it on their part.

Compared to the X-Men (as well as virtually ANY other superhero or superhero group for that matter) the Dragon Ball cast of fighters are often usually EXTREMELY detached from the rest of the "normal" world outside of their own Wulin-esque martial arts community.

Even a dark anti-heroic superhero character like Spawn, a tortured loner outsider who finds himself scraping by in the deep, dark gutters and fringes among New York City's homeless vagrants, is still a tortured loner outsider desperately longing once more to belong among regular people and who fights to help save and protect the innocent from the demonic forces of Hell and thus save a world he can no longer be a direct part of anymore (no matter how much he achingly wants to) from the outside looking in.

Saving and protecting and watching over the well being of others and the world is THE central driving goal and motivation of just about ANY and ALL superheroes, even much of the most non-traditional, anti-heroic kind (who usually end up doing it after a lot of grumbling, complaining, and token resistance). Its not anywhere NEAR the focal core of Dragon Ball and its cast of characters' themes or ideals; hell, oftentimes its almost treated as being just another part of the whimsical, freewheeling, irreverent running gag that is the fabric of the Dragon Ball universe itself.

Dragon Ball's central characters' fight primarily for their own self-improvement as warriors and for their own personal stakes, goals, and reasons. They DO absolutely of course also at times fight to protect others, and once or twice even the planet Earth... but that aspect of them is TOTALLY secondary, at best.

To sum it up more simply: traditional, Western superheroes are focused primarily on protecting and preserving the external world first, and sometimes their own personal self-interests second. Dragon Ball's characters (and most martial arts fiction heroes in general overall: and yes, note the use of the word HEROES there) are almost in a way the direct inverse of this: they're focused primarily on their own personal self-interests first (fighting, training, being better fighters, settling rivalries), and protecting and preserving the external world second... often almost by sheer happenstance in their pursuit of the former.

As others have stated it's not a Super Hero story in the general sense. I do think, however, that there is heroism involved being that the characters have moral values and want to rescue and save people from destruction such as wishing the planet back with the Dragon Balls or saving Namek and Namekians. You could akin them really to fighters who defend their territory and people in need when they come in contact, but they aren't actively patrolling because they aren't, well, super heroes. They are fighters with morals and a competitive spirit.

Perfectly, simply, succinctly stated. Spot on. Summarizes everything I've been trying to get at more or less.

[Fizzer]

The characters aren't superheroes in the traditional sense, but they can be considered superheroes by circumstance. They're mostly decent guys who when the world is in danger want to do so something about it, just like the vast majority of people would, and since they're in a position to be able to help they step in. It'd be a natural compulsion for most people to try to stop the bad guys in those circumstances. The difference between decent people who happen to be crazy strong and superheroes is that superheroes go out of their way to find wrongs to right and make it their day job.

[SmugStick]

I know how the X-men work in the comics. That's why I said "a lot of the time" not always. I know they monitor for problems, but they remain fairly secluded from everything else in the world and just deal with what troubles them. At least from what I've read. I don't know everything, but things like God Loves, Man Kills seem to me like that. I'm sorry If I'm wrong...

[WittyUsername]

At times it can come across that way, but it’s really more of an adventure/fighting story than a story about heroic people doing things for the greater good.

[MR.Mark]

I was referring to when Freeza came back in the super area, so yes, Goku did learn from that. A hero protects people, and for the greater good, his need for good fight got overshadowed by the fact that yeah, had he not killed this guy, his friends and everyone would be gone.

[ABED]

Did he? I haven't seen Super but I've seen Revival of F and Goku fights Freeza on his own instead of fighting two on one. At the end of the movie, both he and Vegeta say they would rather not team up.

[MR.Mark]

Unlikely heros can still have pride and be stubborn, Goku was actually alittle worse in this situation. Because after Vegeta gave Freeza his beatdown, Vegeta had had no issues with killing Freeza right there, and wished for him to never return to boot, no rematch for a good fight.

Toriyama wrote this story, so like it or not, Vegeta, and ultimately Goku, defeated Freeza to save everyone and the Earth.

"The greater good" once again won out the desire to just have a challenge, and this happens all the time in Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

Do you still insist on believing that I don't think they are heroic?

"The greater good" once again won out the desire to just have a challenge

Only in the same way it won out at the Tenkaichi Budokai. And I didn't say they have a desire for JUST a challenge. I don't know what I have to say for you to understand this.

no rematch for a good fight

That was the rematch.

[MR.Mark]

Do you still insist on splitting hairs? Thats all this topic really seems to be. Your arguments seem all over the map, fluctuating from "there not heros" to "well there heroic but not super heros" Seems like this topic was just made out of frustration of your opinions being challenged and flaws being found in your logic.

I set out to voice my opinions that they were heros of sorts, I think I've proven that. You on the other hand have proved that they only want a good fight, er, no they're herioc, sometimes...ok then.

Vegeta's beatdown was the rematch? You'd think Vegeta would want Freeza to retreat and heal up get stronger, for the sake of a good fight, your logic doesin't add up.

[ABED]

Do you still insist on splitting hairs? Thats all this topic really seems to be. Your arguments seem all over the map, fluctuating from "there not heros" to "well there heroic but not super heros" Seems like this topic was just made out of frustration of your opinions being challenged and flaws being found in your logic.

I set out to voice my opinions that they were heros of sorts, I think I've proven that. You on the other hand have proved that they only want a good fight, er, no they're herioc, sometimes...ok then.

I didn't claim they aren't heroes. There you go again! You haven't proven anything because no one said they weren't, including me. I wasn't frustrated by my opinions being challenged. You don't know what they are. My purpose in creating this topic was for I and others to explain to those that think it is a superhero show how it differs. I have not disagreed once about them being heroes, just the idea that they are like The Avengers or the Justice League.

Either you are screwing with me or you refuse to read and like defeating strawmen.

[MR.Mark]

In older debates about the Genki dama and Buu you were basically going on and on about how there not heros, go look up your posts.

I've made my point.

[ABED]

In older debates about the Genki dama and Buu you were basically going on and on about how there not heros, go look up your posts.

I've made my point.

I know what I wrote. I didn't say they weren't heroes. You made your point, by knocking down an argument I never made.

My argument always has been that their PRIMARY goal wasn't to save the world and even when they were explicitly trying to save the universe, they didn't choose the most expedient way. They still fought by their code of honor instead of using a strategy like fusion. So yes, they were heroic and were trying to save the world, but they weren't superheroes.

And why do people insist on using the term "splitting hairs" when it doesn't apply?

[MR.Mark]

You never once said that it was there primary goal, it was just there not heros with not much else to back it up. Plus dancing around Toriyama's writing to not include Gohan by ridiculously suggesting he wouldin't be strong enough to defeat Kid Buu.

[ABED]

You never once said that it was there primary goal, it was just there not heros with not much else to back it up. Plus dancing around Toriyama's writing to not include Gohan by ridiculously suggesting he wouldin't be strong enough to defeat Kid Buu.

I said it A MILLION TIMES that it wasn't their primary goal.

[MR.Mark]

Nah, it was more about screaming there not heros and they did not have interest in saving people, you've obviously have changed your opinion since then.

[ABED]

You're screwing with me.

[MR.Mark]

Um, ok then, I guess you have nothing more to add to this debate.

[ABED]

This thread wasn't about you.

[MR.Mark]

I have every right to debate in this topic, why does it have to be"about me"?

Acting alittle weird there dude.