DB - A Superhero Story?

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DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:47 am

This probably should've been its own thread a long time ago. So, is DB a superhero story in the vein of Justice League and The Avengers or is it something else?

I'm of the mind that it's not in the same category as the aforementioned titles. A superhero actively searches for threats to stop them. Goku and his friends, on the other hand, let threats go for the sake of a better fight. Yes, they have saved the world, but most often as a consequence, not a rule. Yes, in the Buu arc, they were trying to save the world, but only after the threat was sufficient and even then, they did exactly take the most expedient method of doing so.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:05 am

It's not a superhero story. The good guys in DB never fight the bad guys because they want to save the world, they want to get stronger. The only Z Fighter you could classify as a superhero is Gohan.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:09 am

8000 Saiyan wrote:It's not a superhero story. The good guys in DB never fight the bad guys because they want to save the world, they want to get stronger. The only Z Fighter you could classify as a superhero is Gohan.
That's kind of a misconception. Only Goku and Vegeta are that way, and still, just in a way. The Z guys train to get stronger, they fight bad guys to save the world (Goku and Vegeta to test themselves primarily, but still, things are changing)

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:24 am

Piccolo and Tenshinhan also fall in the same category as Goku and Vegeta.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Michsi » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:43 am

ABED wrote:Piccolo and Tenshinhan also fall in the same category as Goku and Vegeta.
Not to the extent of Goku and Vegeta, though. Piccolo in particular seems to have developed as sense of responsibility towards the earth after fusing with Kami. When they all thought Cell was about to win, it was him that was shown thinking about the fate of their world. Same thing during the Buu Saga, he and Dende were especially distraught over Buu killing off the human race.
Sure, they don't go around saving people from common criminals, but I'm pretty sure they would intervene when it comes to large scale disasters.

Having said that, no I wouldn't call them superheroes in the traditional comic book sense. They don't make a career out of keeping the earth or the universe safe. As others have mentioned, they're far more similar to the original heroes of classical literature, which I find kind of ironic. Powerful, not quite morally sound, and mostly out for their own gains, everyone else be damned.

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:47 am

Fair points.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:03 am

Grand total of characters who fight to save the world:

1) Future Trunks

2) Piccolo, ONLY upon fusing with Kami, since part of Kami's duty was protecting the Earth from serious threats. Before that however... no. Not so much at all really.

And 3) Kinda, sorta, sometimes Gohan: there's times he legitimately fights to protect the planet, other times where he's simply fighting to protect himself and his closest friends, and at least a time or two where he's in it purely for the challenge and the fight itself like the others.

Aaaaaaaand... that's it really.

Seriously: go back and read through the manga, or watch the anime in its Japanese/subbed version. Arc by arc, saving the world is almost NEVER the rest of the characters' priority save for the tail-end of the Boo arc, at about the point where:

1) Almost all of humanity with the lone exception of Mr. Satan is wiped out

2) The planet Earth is destroyed

and 3) all of reality and existence is now on the line.

THAT is what it ends up ultimately taking for Goku and Vegeta to actually fight for the express purpose of "saving the world" in the superheroic-esque sense. At the 11th hour, tail-most end of the whole original series.

Late Boo arc notwithstanding, for the vast bulk of the rest of the series - Future Trunks, post-Kami fusion Piccolo, and, depending on when you catch him at least since he bounces back and forth on this a little bit, sometimes Gohan aside (and Kaioshin, since like Kami its at times part of his job only if the threat is existentially grave enough) - just about every single notable character throughout the series fights the villains for the following reasons, in rough order of importance:

1) To test/prove their skills and grow stronger

2) For personal revenge

3) For self-defense/self-preservtion

4) To protect innocent people immediately being threatened right in front of them

Those priorities are in no way, shape, or form those of a superhero. They ARE however EXACTLY the priorities and specific motivations of a martial arts fantasy fiction protagonist.

And Gohan's ACTUAL literal costumed superhero identity, as the Great Saiyaman, lasts for barely a small blip of the series and is used pretty much entirely as a joke.

When you follow the central cast's progression as a group throughout the whole story, what you have here are a bunch of martial arts students and masters who all first met one another as rivals and competitors, but grew into friends, comrades, and in some cases actual family, through a series of martial arts tournaments and heated personal feuds and vendettas, and henceforth spend virtually the whole the series training and growing their skills and using them on new opponents and challenges; either to test one another's progress as warriors, to protect each other, to settle personal scores, or some combination thereof. Goku's our central character of focus, but this basically applies to virtually everyone else in his supporting cast, with the above noted exceptions aside.

This is also why the characters aren't seen usually (early arcs of Super and the opening scenes of some of the movies notwithstanding) as this closely-knit group of bestest friends forever who hang out all the time constantly (something which a lot of present day fans complain about and, I would say mistakenly and misguidedly, perceive as a flaw of the series), and instead sometimes spend years and years apart training in the middle of god knows where, before meeting back up to compare notes and progress as fighters when a new challenge to them arises.

This is pretty much exactly how fighters who are friends and comrades generally often behave around one another in most Wuxia fiction: where the greatest martial artists in the land spend most of their time on their own personal training missions and adventures far from the outskirts of society in the middle of the farthest flung regions of nowhere, and only cross paths every so often mainly when there's some specific reason to... even if they consider each other to be close friends.

Arc by arc, story by story, this whole idea of "the Z Warriors as an intrepid team of superheroes who are sworn defenders of the planet Earth and its people against the forces of evil" is something that NEVER crystallizes at ANY point in the original manga and original version of the anime, nor is it even so much as alluded to really. Its only EVER been something that's been truly invented and played up in the FUNimation/U.S. dub and its marketing stateside, and its clung onto fandom since then out of seemingly pure inertia, along with much of latter-day fandom's overall lack of experience with martial arts fantasy outside of Dragon Ball in general, as well as in many U.S. fans' cases an unwillingness to explore any of Dragon Ball (be it through the manga or the original Japanese version of the anime) outside of the FUNimation "reversioning". And when many fans eventually do explore the original incarnation(s), its oftentimes still through the lens of many of the misconceptions brought about by the FUNi dub still clinging on subconsciously, while also being further compounded by - again - not having any real exposure to much of any other genre-fare like this.

No matter how you slice it otherwise, superheroics (certainly in the Western Marvel/DC sense for sure) are just NOT what this story is about, nor what these characters generally represent, because its simply just the flat out wrong and mismatched genre identity for this. The core root of the problem here is that this foreign martial arts fantasy series was brought to U.S. shores officially by a company that had no clue what the hell they were doing, primarily for an audience that largely isn't very well versed in all that much (certainly not something as esoteric as Chinese kung fu fantasy epics) outside of children's action/superhero cartoon shows.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by sintzu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:51 am

Goku and his friends' goal is to fight strong people and while doing so they end up saving the planet. Saving the planet would be enough to say they're heroes even though that's not the main reason for them fighting.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by sangofe » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:15 am

ABED wrote:This probably should've been its own thread a long time ago. So, is DB a superhero story in the vein of Justice League and The Avengers or is it something else?

I'm of the mind that it's not in the same category as the aforementioned titles. A superhero actively searches for threats to stop them. Goku and his friends, on the other hand, let threats go for the sake of a better fight. Yes, they have saved the world, but most often as a consequence, not a rule. Yes, in the Buu arc, they were trying to save the world, but only after the threat was sufficient and even then, they did exactly take the most expedient method of doing so.
Dragon Ball has never been a superhero story. Sure, it's always had adventures and fights where things end up dangerous sometimes and they have to save others, but it's never been a story about any superheroes whose primaly goal is to save the world. Except maybe Great Saiyaman (I'm joking here, he can't be considered a superhero).

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Forte224 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:33 am

Of course it isn't. Now, what bugs me is that people are so scarred by Goku's portrayal in the Ocean/OG Funi dubs that anytime someone makes Goku out to sound even slightly heroic they get all up in arms, when in fact he does do "heoric" things at times, such as allowing himself to be killed by the Makankosappo.

People want to dial the hero meter down to 0% when it should be somewhere around 10%. Goku and the rest do care, and will put their lives on the line, but only when it's a cataclysmic event or affects their closed loved ones (that they love). But you don't see them out stopping robberies and murders until Gohan does it as a brief hobby and Kuririn gets paid for it as a career in Super

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:22 am

Yes, he's heroic, but he's not a superhero.
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by SansrivaaL » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:28 am

DB is more of an adventure story than a superhero one, never saw any of them as a superhero (there was great saiyaman tho) just doesnt fit as a lot of the main cast and especially the main character is too selfish to be one.

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Forte224 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:57 am

ABED wrote:Yes, he's heroic, but he's not a superhero.
Yeah that was my point. To this day the dub still messes it up sometimes though
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:02 am

It has superhero stories within it (Great Saiyaman, Pride Troopers, etc.)
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:59 pm

No. Dragon Ball is not a superhero story, doesn't have to be a superhero story and when it decided to dip in toes into that region, it's dome so to either to mock it (Great Saiyaman) or deconstruct it (Pride Troopers).

Goku and the gang have never, ever, ever been portrayed as superheroes in the conventional sense in any Dragon Ball story. While they do have their heroic moments, they aren't going around enforcing people the law with superhuman abilities like the Justice League or the Avengers. They are simply a group of martial artists interested in getting as strong as they can. I mean, the practially everythign about the Android and Cell arc rests on the decision of the main cast in not taking the easy way out with Bulma's plan to stop Dr Gero from activating the Androids because they also wanted to challenge themselves.

Future Trunks story is probably the closest that Dragon Ball alludes to when it comes to the traditional conventions of a basic superhero narrative.

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:04 pm

What are the Pride Troopers?
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:18 pm

ABED wrote:What are the Pride Troopers?
Basically another in a long line of bad DB parodies that's meant to kind of mock superheroes and Power Rangers (again).
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:30 pm

ABED wrote:What are the Pride Troopers?
Minor spoilers:
[spoiler]They are basically a team of superheroes who occupy Universe 11 and act that universe's equivalent of the Justice League. Stopping evil doers, having speeches about heroes, freedom and justice, having a grand entrance every time they are out on duty, stopping more evildoers and even doing shit like saving cats from trees.

But here's the twist.

Toppo, the leader of the Pride Troopers, has an insanely black and white morality to what constitutes as "good" and what constitutes as "evil". Toppo openly admits that he punishes all kinds of evil, small, normal or big, with the same kind of punishment...death. As we see in a later episode, we see that Toppo kills an evil doer while he gives one of those classic heroes speeches on how the Pride Troopers will keep the light of freedom shinning bright and that no evil will rise against the Pride Trooper and all that jazz. In fact, Toppo even proudly announces "Death to evildoers!" during a fight against Goku, while he is in the process of bear-hugging Goku to death. The issue becomes all the more grey when you take into consideration that the Pride Troopers, and Toppo specifically, are looked up upon by many in their universe, despite their somewhat extreme course of action as "heroes".

The actions and statements of the Pride Troopers are quite Knight Templar-ish for a group that are basically considered the Justice League of Universe 11, that by some certain standards, you couldn't even call Toppo or the rest of the Pride Troopers superheros in the traditional sense.[/spoiler]
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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:28 pm

sintzu wrote:Goku and his friends' goal is to fight strong people and while doing so they end up saving the planet. Saving the planet would be enough to say they're heroes even though that's not the main reason for them fighting.
Tail end of the Boo arc aside, saving the world is generally just a matter of happenstance for them: a byproduct of the scale of their (as well as that of their opponents') collective abilities becoming absurdly god-like in proportions. The ultimate fate of the world and its people are often just used as the backdrop and a prop for their continued growth as fighters. At times the degree to how sometimes inconsequential it is to some of the characters almost feels like its of a piece with the series' particular sense of demented quirk and whimsy.
Lord Beerus wrote:
ABED wrote:What are the Pride Troopers?
Minor spoilers:
[spoiler]They are basically a team of superheroes who occupy Universe 11 and act that universe's equivalent of the Justice League. Stopping evil does, having speeches about heroes, freedom and justice, having a grand entrance every time they are out on duty, stopping evildoers and even doing shit like saving cats from tree.

But here's the twist.

Toppo, the leader of the Pride Troopers, has an insanely black and white morality to what constitutes as "good" and what constitutes as "evil". Toppo openly admits that he punishes all kinds of evil, small, normal or big, with the same kind of punishment...death. As we see in a later episode, we see that Toppo kills an evil doer while he gives one of those classic heroes speeches on how the Pride Troopers will keep the light of freedom shinning bright and that no evil will rise against the Pride Trooper and all that jazz. In fact, Toppo even proudly announces "Death to evildoers!" during a fight against Goku, while he is in the process of bear-hugging Goku to death. The issue becomes all the more grey when you take into consideration that the Pride Troopers, and Toppo specifically, are looked up upon by many in their universe, despite their somewhat extreme course of action.

The actions and statements of the Pride Troopers are quite Knight Templar-ish for a group that are basically considered the Justice League of Universe 11, that by some certain standards, you couldn't even call him or the rest of the Pride Troopers superheros in the traditional sense.[/spoiler]
Effectively its another take (albeit in a very Dragon Ball manner) on the idea of "superheroes deconstructed into analogues for fascism" popularized by Watchmen. A friend of mine noted that the Pride Troopers' costumes even have kind of a Green Lantern Corps.-esque vibe to them. Other than Saiyaman, its the only other time we've had "actual" superhero characters ever show up in Dragon Ball at any point. And unlike Saiyaman, this time they're treated much more seriously (albeit greatly subverted into being more villainous themselves).
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: DB - A Superhero Story?

Post by Kinokima » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:34 pm

I actually don't think the Pride Troopers are meant to be villains just antagonists...although I think they would have made great villains with a misguided sense of justice. Too bad the series didn't go there.

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