Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:12 pm

Meshack wrote:I go more of the “official” route than anything else unless there isn’t one.
But as we keep trying to impress on you (and I don't think it's caught on yet), when you say "official"... what does that mean?

Because (again) there are constantly different spellings being used for various characters. Only the smallest amount are extremely consistent (Satan), versus a smaller handful that are MOSTLY consistent but even then still have outliers (Bulma vs. Bloomer and Buluma; Gokou vs Gokuh and Goku), versus the vast majority that have AT LEAST three different alphabet spellings in wide use over the last thirty years.

And that's JUST transliterations/adaptations in our alphabet from the Japanese rights-holders, nevermind the "official" sub-license holders in America alone, and EVEN THEN within the SAME COMPANY you'll have different style guides and approaches (see: "Tenkaichi Tournament" vs "Tenkaichi Budokai" in FUNimation subtitles versus "World Martial Arts Tournament in FUNimation's dub).

I already said this, but again-again, name a single character and I can likely give you two (if not three or four) examples of that name being spelled differently in our alphabet from the same Japanese company.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:40 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Meshack wrote:I go more of the “official” route than anything else unless there isn’t one.
But as we keep trying to impress on you (and I don't think it's caught on yet), when you say "official"... what does that mean?

Because (again) there are constantly different spellings being used for various characters. Only the smallest amount are extremely consistent (Satan), versus a smaller handful that are MOSTLY consistent but even then still have outliers (Bulma vs. Bloomer and Buluma; Gokou vs Gokuh and Goku), versus the vast majority that have AT LEAST three different alphabet spellings in wide use over the last thirty years.

And that's JUST transliterations/adaptations in our alphabet from the Japanese rights-holders, nevermind the "official" sub-license holders in America alone, and EVEN THEN within the SAME COMPANY you'll have different style guides and approaches (see: "Tenkaichi Tournament" vs "Tenkaichi Budokai" in FUNimation subtitles versus "World Martial Arts Tournament in FUNimation's dub).

I already said this, but again-again, name a single character and I can likely give you two (if not three or four) examples of that name being spelled differently in our alphabet from the same Japanese company.
Kreeza, Broly, and Ginew. Are there multiple spellings of these characters?

When I say “official” I mean what’s used by Toriyama->Shueisha->Bandai Namco->Toei Animation->English localizations (from most priority to least priority). I assume you’re getting this by now. With Bulma there’s really only Bulma and Buluma. On the image you are referencing, there seems to be an s at the end, resulting in Bloomers. But we know this is the source so we can assume it’s not Toriyama trying to spell her name. Between Bulma and Buluma, Bulma is more consistently used and Toriyama was only shown using Bulma in multiple artworks. By this, I use Bulma. With Kulilin, I know Toriyama used Kuririn once and Clylyn once (can’t find Clylyn), but Kulilin was used multiple times on covers and in chapters. Even the DB Kai Dragon Books use Kulilin.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:45 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
VegettoEX wrote: (Even with her there have been alternate spellings.)
Oh, geez. I have the 2015 New Year Image where Toriyama renders the name as "Bloomer" on her clothing, but I've never seen this one before. Where is it from?
It actually looks like there’s an “S” at the end but isn’t visibly seen with the “Bloomer” so maybe Toriyama was just writing the source of the pun rather than writing her name again

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:25 pm

Something interesting but recently on items that have a non gold sticker they started spelling Goku as that "Goku" meanwhile the gold Japanese proxy they still spell as "Gokou"...
Example:
[spoiler]Silver sticker to be sold in Asia excluding JapanImage
Vs gold sticker to be sold in Japan
Image[/spoiler]

Odd thing really as I noticed it was something just happening recently, since August.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by KBABZ » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:20 pm

The spelling can trip me up sometimes but ultimately the important thing is that we all know what we're talking about. You would know what I'm talking about if I said something like "Krillin trained with Korin after talking with Bulma", and my Dimension of Dragonball Kid Gokou figure has an extra o in it compared to what I'm used to, but I still know what it's referring to. I think the same applies for commonly-used names that are outright different. If you're a Dragon Ball fan it helps to know what Genki Dama refers to even if you personally prefer to use Spirit Bomb. I like using World Martial Arts Tournament over Tenkaichi Budokai because I saw and see the DB dub primarily (and it can be abbreviated to WMAT).

Ultimately I feel like there's a large amount of subjectivity when it comes to translating things that produces variances (ignoring outright changes such as Solar Flare); see Ginyu Tokusentai being either the Ginyu Force or the Ginyu Special Squad depending on who you talk to. Dragon Ball doesn't really have a set translation style guide outside of what's been established prior, and even then that can be different in two official works, like the spelling of Vegetto. And unfortunately there'd be a lot of friction to introducing a "canonical" translation guide for names at this point given that we have over 20 years of established names that people hold dear.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Cold Skin » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:01 pm

I agree with the fact that anyone can choose the version that they see fit for names, as long as it's still recognizable (which it is in 99% of cases).
I myself use the official "manga" French names, which have been kept for every subsequent releases in France, but not everyone does so even in France, and just like in the US, names vary between the manga and the dub in the very same country (sometimes with the approval of Toei in both cases, such as Magetta in the French manga being Goldoma in the French dub). And then, everyone might come up with their own versions and compromises.

Note that even official translators won't care much about any occidental adaptations intended by the Japanese market: the Dragon Ball Landmark official guidebook has just been released in France this month, and it originally contains plenty of English titles in its original format with tentative English names.
Those were just completely ignored: you can still see their tentative English titles left as they were, since only the Japanese text was adapted to French. So you effectively see "PLANET BEGETA" on the map with "Planet Vegeta"(chosen by the translator) written alongside with it in French, or "NAMEKKU PLANET" with "Planet Namek" written next to it or "PICCOLO THE DEVIL" with "Demon King Piccolo" written in French. And of course, you do see a section named "GOKOU" in English with our regular "Goku" next to it.

All of this to say that even the official translators, trying to respect the original material while properly adapting it for the country they work for, are not hiding that the way Japanese try to adapt the names is not the best choice according to them and they will openly diverge from it and propose something they deem more natural. And their own choice is one of many that could have been prefered by other translators.
So in the end, those Japanese attempts are not "supreme" in any way and actually often look more strange than anything to occidental viewers, since Japanese is an extremely different language that even has a whole other alphabet, so it might be harder for them to grasp what looks like natural spellings for western readers.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:41 am

I get that you wanna make the names “easier for English audiences” but Bulma, again, doesn’t get the pun across as much as people preach that it matters. It matters but I mean, they’re behind the series. If you feel the spelling is “right”, then use it.

Back to Shenron and Shenlong, how do we know if Toriyama didn’t tell them to write Shenron or not. I mean, he changed Tapion’s name because the original was too direct. Maybe Shenlong is too direct and wants Shenron. Maybe Blooma is too direct and wants Bulma.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:43 am

Meshack wrote:Back to Shenron and Shenlong, how do we know if Toriyama didn’t tell them to write Shenron or not. I mean, he changed Tapion’s name because the original was too direct. Maybe Shenlong is too direct and wants Shenron.
Shenlong isn't a pun. It's not a corruption of a word. It's literally just the Chinese pronunciation of "dragon god". In a series with faux-Chinese influences, Toriyama wanted everyone to pronounce his name the Chinese way.

It's been explained to you several times over that the シェンロン furigana above 神龍 is what indicates to the Japanese reader that they should read it with the Chinese pronunciation instead of the standard Japanese reading of those characters (shin ryuu), both of which still mean "dragon god" no matter which language you're pronouncing it in.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:34 pm

I think that an important thing to keep in mind is that there are many versions of "official" names for you to pick and choose from. The problem with all of them is that they are merely adaptations of the original name.

Here's a list of the "official" names:
1) Every dub name
2) Every manga name
3) Every merchandise name

When a company is allowed to make their own adaptation of the anime or manga, that version is pretty much official. Funimation is the official English translation of the Dragon Ball anime, so their names are pretty official. Viz is the official English translation of the manga, so their names are official as well. Then, the toys, etc. are also official.

Look at it like this: we have Kuririn, Krillin, etc., right? Well his original name is neither of those. His original name is クリリン. That is his real name, regardless of anything else. Everything besides "クリリン" is an adaptation and all you can do is go by what's closest to it. Letter by letter, it's Kuririn. You can adapt it into Kulilin, Kulirin, Kurilin. From what I understand, for sound purposes Klilin, Klirin, or Krilin would work too. Personally, I've tried to make my own version to go by, so I prefer Kurilin based on the fact that it's a play on kuri and shaolin, so I prefer "Kurilin." To me, Kurilin is the closest adaptation to what was intended. However, you'll never find it on anything (As far as I'm aware of). But I look at it as my hand at adapting the name no different than anyone else because again, his real name is "クリリン," not either of the above.

I know that it's hard and you'd really just love for Akira Toriyama to come out and give a list of all of the official English spellings for the names, but that won't happen. All you can do is choose an adaptation that works for you and keep it as close to making sense as possible.

At least in my opinion.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:59 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Meshack wrote:Back to Shenron and Shenlong, how do we know if Toriyama didn’t tell them to write Shenron or not. I mean, he changed Tapion’s name because the original was too direct. Maybe Shenlong is too direct and wants Shenron.
Shenlong isn't a pun. It's not a corruption of a word. It's literally just the Chinese pronunciation of "dragon god". In a series with faux-Chinese influences, Toriyama wanted everyone to pronounce his name the Chinese way.

It's been explained to you several times over that the シェンロン furigana above 神龍 is what indicates to the Japanese reader that they should read it with the Chinese pronunciation instead of the standard Japanese reading of those characters (shin ryuu), both of which still mean "dragon god" no matter which language you're pronouncing it in.
I get it. I’ve known that before this topic. I know Shenlong/Shenron is not a pun. It’s Chinese. I’ve known that before you mentioned it to me in the other thread. But, if you use Shenlong, wouldn’t you have to use Tianjinfan or Jiaozi or am I missing something?

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:14 pm

Meshack wrote:I get it. I’ve known that before this topic. I know Shenlong/Shenron is not a pun. It’s Chinese. I’ve known that before you mentioned it to me in the other thread. But, if you use Shenlong, wouldn’t you have to use Tianjinfan or Jiaozi or am I missing something?
"Chiaotzu" and "Jiaozi" are both valid transliterations of the same thing; "Jiaozi" is the more modern style. I wanna say it was explained as the same kind of thing between "Peking" and "Beijing"; they're the exact same thing, just different ways of transliterating it. In their fansubs for Dragon Ball Super, "Dragon Team" in fact went with the modern transliteration style of "Jiaozi".

You say 餃子 with the Chinese pronunciation ("Chiaotzu" or "Jiaozi", again, which are the same thing and sound exactly the same) instead of "gyoza" (the Japanese reading of those kanji). This is, again, a joke in the series where the tournament announcer says his name aloud as "Gyoza".

"Chiaotzu" (or "Jiaozi") is to "Chaozu" the way "Shenlong" is to "Shenron"; in these cases, the lattermost is the direct romanization of the Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation. We're not speaking Japanese, so we don't need to use their approximation; the furigana is telling us to go straight to the Chinese.

We don't say "Tianjinfan" because the furigana above 天津飯 tell us to read it as "Tenshinhan" and not a Chinese pronunciation of "Tianjinfan".
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:15 pm

:eh:
TheGreatness25 wrote:I think that an important thing to keep in mind is that there are many versions of "official" names for you to pick and choose from. The problem with all of them is that they are merely adaptations of the original name.

Here's a list of the "official" names:
1) Every dub name
2) Every manga name
3) Every merchandise name

When a company is allowed to make their own adaptation of the anime or manga, that version is pretty much official. Funimation is the official English translation of the Dragon Ball anime, so their names are pretty official. Viz is the official English translation of the manga, so their names are official as well. Then, the toys, etc. are also official.

Look at it like this: we have Kuririn, Krillin, etc., right? Well his original name is neither of those. His original name is クリリン. That is his real name, regardless of anything else. Everything besides "クリリン" is an adaptation and all you can do is go by what's closest to it. Letter by letter, it's Kuririn. You can adapt it into Kulilin, Kulirin, Kurilin. From what I understand, for sound purposes Klilin, Klirin, or Krilin would work too. Personally, I've tried to make my own version to go by, so I prefer Kurilin based on the fact that it's a play on kuri and shaolin, so I prefer "Kurilin." To me, Kurilin is the closest adaptation to what was intended. However, you'll never find it on anything (As far as I'm aware of). But I look at it as my hand at adapting the name no different than anyone else because again, his real name is "クリリン," not either of the above.

I know that it's hard and you'd really just love for Akira Toriyama to come out and give a list of all of the official English spellings for the names, but that won't happen. All you can do is choose an adaptation that works for you and keep it as close to making sense as possible.

At least in my opinion.
クリリン is not in the Roman alphabet so it’s not his “real name.” クリリン is a combination of Japanese phonetics to say Kuririn. I’ve seen the transliteration of Kurilin before but Toriyama never used it or any other official source, so why use it? Toriyama didn’t say his name was based on Shaolin but just kuri. Yes, Shaolin was an influence on Kulilin and the Ohrinji Temple but that doesn’t mean his name is a pun or should transliterated the same was as kuri and Shaolin. We can the pun is on kuri because of his appearance and because of Marron.

I know Toriyama wrote Kuririn, Clylyn, and Kulilin, but he wrote Kuririn and Clylyn once but Kulilin consistently during the Freeza Arc.

P.S. Where can I find Clylyn in the manga? I saw it somewhere besides the manga.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:18 pm

Meshack wrote:クリリン is not in the Roman alphabet so it’s not his “real name.”
Your statements of fact continue to be misguided at best and incorrect at worst over and over again. Please listen and pay attention to what others are attempting to explain and convey to you.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:21 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Meshack wrote:I get it. I’ve known that before this topic. I know Shenlong/Shenron is not a pun. It’s Chinese. I’ve known that before you mentioned it to me in the other thread. But, if you use Shenlong, wouldn’t you have to use Tianjinfan or Jiaozi or am I missing something?
"Chiaotzu" and "Jiaozi" are both valid transliterations of the same thing; "Jiaozi" is the more modern style. I wanna say it was explained as the same kind of thing between "Peking" and "Beijing"; they're the exact same thing, just different ways of transliterating it. In their fansubs for Dragon Ball Super, "Dragon Team" in fact went with the modern transliteration style of "Jiaozi".

You say 餃子 with the Chinese pronunciation ("Chiaotzu" or "Jiaozi", again, which are the same thing and sound exactly the same) instead of "gyoza" (the Japanese reading of those kanji). This is, again, a joke in the series where the tournament announcer says his name aloud as "Gyoza".

"Chiaotzu" (or "Jiaozi") is to "Chaozu" the way "Shenlong" is to "Shenron"; in these cases, the lattermost is the direct romanization of the Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation. We're not speaking Japanese, so we don't need to use their approximation; the furigana is telling us to go straight to the Chinese.

We don't say "Tianjinfan" because the furigana above 天津飯 tell us to read it as "Tenshinhan" and not a Chinese pronunciation of "Tianjinfan".
Okay! I got it now. But again, I use the direct romanization because Japanese material use it and is pretty consistent. Unless Toriyama spells their names as Jiaozi and Shenlong in the future, I will continue to ise Chaoz and Shenron. You may find it ilogical but it’s official unless you can find me Jiaozi and Shenlong on Dragon Ball JP merch

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:29 pm

Wait, what about Yamcha? Why don’t you guys use Yumcha?

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by KBABZ » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:06 pm

Meshack wrote:Wait, what about Yamcha? Why don’t you guys use Yumcha?
I don't because that's not what I'm used to. From a fandom perspective I personally don't think it matters that much so long as we all know what we're talking about. It's all English adaptations of a foreign language that is very different to ours (as well as jokes and the exact meanings of adjectives), so the only "official" names are those from the original source, Japanese.
Meshack wrote:クリリン is not in the Roman alphabet so it’s not his “real name.”
That ignores the fact that Dragon Ball comes from and was written in Japan.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Duo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:14 pm

Meshack wrote:Wait, what about Yamcha? Why don’t you guys use Yumcha?
The line between inquiry and trolling has become increasingly blurry with every post you write in this thread.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Herms » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:51 pm

Meshack wrote:Wait, what about Yamcha? Why don’t you guys use Yumcha?
"Yamcha" (or Yam2 Cha4 if you want to indicate tones) is in fact the proper Yale Romanization of the Cantonese name for the dining custom. Under the Jyutping Romanization system the Cantonese name is spelt Jam Caa, while the Mandarin name is Yin Cha (all of these are different readings of the Chinese characters 饮茶, literally to drink tea).

Meanwhile "Yumcha", near as I can tell, is just some weirdo spelling that seems to have obtained prominence in English more or less at random. It is in no way a more proper or valid spelling of the name of the dining custom than are Yamcha, Jamcaa, or Yincha. I'm not saying it's less valid either, but there's no actual reason to prefer it over "Yamcha", certainly not when it comes to the DB character. I repeat, "Yamcha" is 100% in line with the Cantonese source of the name.

(At this point, I write these things mainly in the hope that other people who happen to be perusing this thread will find them helpful.)
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:43 am

Okay, thanks!

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:48 am

KBABZ wrote:
Meshack wrote:Wait, what about Yamcha? Why don’t you guys use Yumcha?
I don't because that's not what I'm used to. From a fandom perspective I personally don't think it matters that much so long as we all know what we're talking about. It's all English adaptations of a foreign language that is very different to ours (as well as jokes and the exact meanings of adjectives), so the only "official" names are those from the original source, Japanese.
Meshack wrote:クリリン is not in the Roman alphabet so it’s not his “real name.”
That ignores the fact that Dragon Ball comes from and was written in Japan.
クリリン is Japanese. I’m not gonna sit here and write クリリン everytime I talk about Kulilin. I write with the English alphabet. Just because I write in the alphabet doesn’t take away that the name is from a Japanese series. It’s like Riku from Kingdom Hearts. I’m not gonna write リク everytime. Now, if there wasn’t an official English translation for the game, some people would go for Liku or Riku. But the official name is Riku, coming from the Japanese Square Enix, so everyone uses Riku and Riku is the real name of the character. Why can’t we have that with Dragonball?

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