Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

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Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:34 am

So, in another discussion topic, I sparked a conversation on Shenron versus Shenlong and it brought along other spellings in Japanese material.

Yes, I understand why Shenron is not the logical way to go with シェンロン. I get it. But since Japanese material use it, I kinda have to. I mean, some romanizations may not be the best but if they get the pun across then it’s okay, right? Ginew, Apoule, Burtta, Babidi, Boo, Darbura, Kiela, and others... I mean, they get the pun across and most ate better than Bulma. I use the spellings from Toriyama->Shueisha-> Bandai->Toei->English localizations

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:41 pm

You don't "have" to do or use anything. No-one's forcing you. Just because it's used in one place in Japanese merchandise doesn't mean it's not contradicted elsewhere (oftentimes in the same publication).

At Kanzenshuu, we don't necessarily feel beholden to any existing precedent, Japanese-origin or otherwise. We certainly are aware of them all, certainly take them into consideration, and certainly weigh them against what else we might want to use... but we don't have to use them.

We're always happy to explain what we use, why we use it, and why we think it might be a better choice than some existing spelling from another country (again, Japan or otherwise).
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:36 pm

VegettoEX wrote:You don't "have" to do or use anything. No-one's forcing you. Just because it's used in one place in Japanese merchandise doesn't mean it's not contradicted elsewhere (oftentimes in the same publication).

At Kanzenshuu, we don't necessarily feel beholden to any existing precedent, Japanese-origin or otherwise. We certainly are aware of them all, certainly take them into consideration, and certainly weigh them against what else we might want to use... but we don't have to use them.

We're always happy to explain what we use, why we use it, and why we think it might be a better choice than some existing spelling from another country (again, Japan or otherwise).
See, I don’t feel as if the fans can dictate what the spelling for characters should be unless there isn’t an official spelling from a Japanese source like Shueisha or Toei or Bandai. These companies are in charge of the franchise, they know what the naming schemes are and choose their spellings accordingly. It’s a different story if it contradicts English like Toriyama would consistently write Red Ribon instead of Red Ribbon (until the Kanzenban cover came around.) If it’s something like Coora. We know the pun is not on cooler but a Japanese saying in some dialect I can’t remember. I go this route because it’s consistent, sticking with a certain scheme and not “what’s popular or normal.”

I’m curious to know why you guys spell Buruma as Bulma instead of Bluma or Blooma. Bulma doesn’t really reflect the pun, but I continue to use it because Toriyama used it very consistently and the big companies use it. I do know that it was said before that you guys wouldn’t come to an agreement on what spelling to use or something like that

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Bardo117 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:42 pm

Some of us still use the word Saiyan instead of Saiyajin. I guess it's just what you like that is used. Sometimes even in the same sentences we refer to things differently. I might say 'Super Saiyan Goku' at the beginning of the sentence, but refer to it as a 'SSJ Goku' later. Just depends.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:45 pm

Meshack wrote:These companies are in charge of the franchise, they know what the naming schemes are and choose their spellings accordingly.
But they don't always know what they're doing/saying. Dare I say sometimes we actually do more research and analysis than them...? Not always, but certainly for the older stuff... And again, there are countless contradicting transliterations. The only one that's actually somewhat consistent is "Gokou", and even then you have Toriyama rather consistently spelling it as "Gokuh".

Pick a name, and I can probably show you at least two different spellings. Usually three.

(Except maybe "Satan"... I don't think I've ever seen a spelling other than that!)
Meshack wrote:I’m curious to know why you guys spell Buruma as Bulma instead of Bluma or Blooma. Bulma doesn’t really reflect the pun, but I continue to use it because Toriyama used it very consistently and the big companies use it.
Because we keep putting off the conversation and don't really want to deal with it. Hands over ears, lah-lah-lah and all.

(Even with her there have been alternate spellings.)

Our goal with names at Kanzenshuu is to preserve the pronunciation as best as possible, while reflecting as much of a pronunciation from the source word/pun as appropriate, while bringing out the source word/pun where applicable in a transliteration, while balancing general readability in our alphabet to an international audience. Somewhere mixed in there we consider what other spellings people have used, but again, we don't feel beholden to them.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:03 pm

Bardo117 wrote:Some of us still use the word Saiyan instead of Saiyajin. I guess it's just what you like that is used. Sometimes even in the same sentences we refer to things differently. I might say 'Super Saiyan Goku' at the beginning of the sentence, but refer to it as a 'SSJ Goku' later. Just depends.
It is a preference thing. It’s weird to me that use Saiyan but abbreviate Super Saiyan as SSJ. I wonder if people wonder where the j comes from if they do this...

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:06 pm

Meshack wrote:It is a preference thing. It’s weird to me that use Saiyan but abbreviate Super Saiyan as SSJ. I wonder if people wonder where the j comes from if they do this...
In the past it's been a reluctance to use "SS" due to its association with Nazi forces, as well as its usage in ship names.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:13 pm

VegettoEX wrote: (Even with her there have been alternate spellings.)
Oh, geez. I have the 2015 New Year Image where Toriyama renders the name as "Bloomer" on her clothing, but I've never seen this one before. Where is it from?
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:14 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Oh, geez. I have the 2015 New Year Image where Toriyama renders the name as "Bloomer" on her clothing, but I've never seen this one before. Where is it from?
Battle of Gods guide book.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:17 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:Oh, geez. I have the 2015 New Year Image where Toriyama renders the name as "Bloomer" on her clothing, but I've never seen this one before. Where is it from?
Battle of Gods guide book.
Thank you!
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:19 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Meshack wrote:These companies are in charge of the franchise, they know what the naming schemes are and choose their spellings accordingly.
But they don't always know what they're doing/saying. Dare I say sometimes we actually do more research and analysis than them...? Not always, but certainly for the older stuff... And again, there are countless contradicting transliterations. The only one that's actually somewhat consistent is "Gokou", and even then you have Toriyama rather consistently spelling it as "Gokuh".

Pick a name, and I can probably show you at least two different spellings. Usually three.

(Except maybe "Satan"... I don't think I've ever seen a spelling other than that!)
Meshack wrote:I’m curious to know why you guys spell Buruma as Bulma instead of Bluma or Blooma. Bulma doesn’t really reflect the pun, but I continue to use it because Toriyama used it very consistently and the big companies use it.
Because we keep putting off the conversation and don't really want to deal with it. Hands over ears, lah-lah-lah and all.

(Even with her there have been alternate spellings.)

Our goal with names at Kanzenshuu is to preserve the pronunciation as best as possible, while reflecting as much of a pronunciation from the source word/pun as appropriate, while bringing out the source word/pun where applicable in a transliteration, while balancing general readability in our alphabet to an international audience. Somewhere mixed in there we consider what other spellings people have used, but again, we don't feel beholden to them.
You guys probably do more research and analysis than them on the older stuff but I don’t know. I tend to go with the most consistent spelling used in this order: Toriyama->Shueisha->Bandai->Toei Animation->English localizations. It may not be... the most logical way to go because they’re not consistent sometimes (most recent example is Beerus/Beers but I guess everyone is using Beerus now except Shueisha [last time spelled as “Beers” in DBS Super Start Guide])

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:21 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Meshack wrote:It is a preference thing. It’s weird to me that use Saiyan but abbreviate Super Saiyan as SSJ. I wonder if people wonder where the j comes from if they do this...
In the past it's been a reluctance to use "SS" due to its association with Nazi forces, as well as its usage in ship names.
Well, it’s now associated with Super Saiyan

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:22 pm

Bardo117 wrote:Some of us still use the word Saiyan instead of Saiyajin. I guess it's just what you like that is used. Sometimes even in the same sentences we refer to things differently. I might say 'Super Saiyan Goku' at the beginning of the sentence, but refer to it as a 'SSJ Goku' later. Just depends.

Guilty of this too I use both Kuririn and Kuririn for example. I try to use Kuririn but Kuririn is just sometimes easier.

And I usually write Saiyan but in my head I say Saiyajin lol



edit: And now I see this site corrects Kuririn to the Japanese name making my post nonsensical :lol:

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:48 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Bardo117 wrote:Some of us still use the word Saiyan instead of Saiyajin. I guess it's just what you like that is used. Sometimes even in the same sentences we refer to things differently. I might say 'Super Saiyan Goku' at the beginning of the sentence, but refer to it as a 'SSJ Goku' later. Just depends.

Guilty of this too I use both Kuririn and Kuririn for example. I try to use Kuririn but Kuririn is just sometimes easier.

And I usually write Saiyan but in my head I say Saiyajin lol



edit: And now I see this site corrects Kuririn to the Japanese name making my post nonsensical :lol:
I use Kulilin. If Toriyama never spelled his name (yes, I am aware of Kuririn and Clylyn but he only used them once as opposed to Kulilin which was used several times), I would be using Klilyn.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:59 pm

Kinokima wrote:edit: And now I see this site corrects Kuririn to the Japanese name making my post nonsensical :lol:
Your spelling was a misspelling of a dub name.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:08 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Kinokima wrote:edit: And now I see this site corrects Kuririn to the Japanese name making my post nonsensical :lol:
Your spelling was a misspelling of a dub name.
Woops you are right don't know why I always saw it as en in my head. Well I guess I learned something new today. Although if I keep typing it wrong it will always be corrected for me so not such a bad thing. :D

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Duo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:18 pm

Meshack wrote:See, I don’t feel as if the fans can dictate what the spelling for characters should be
They are not dictating anything onto anybody at all. It's how Kanzenshuu chooses to run the website that they pay for and support on their free time. You're more than welcome to pour your time, money, and years into creating a fansite that adheres to your standards. The subtitles on CrunchyRoll reach a wider audience and they way off with some of the terms they use, so you could much sooner accuse them of "dictating" terminology preference onto fandom.

If you can't handle some competing translations, I highly recommend sticking exclusively to English or any other languages you may know for your entertainment needs.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:59 pm

Duo wrote:
Meshack wrote:See, I don’t feel as if the fans can dictate what the spelling for characters should be
They are not dictating anything onto anybody at all. It's how Kanzenshuu chooses to run the website that they pay for and support on their free time. You're more than welcome to pour your time, money, and years into creating a fansite that adheres to your standards. The subtitles on CrunchyRoll reach a wider audience and they way off with some of the terms they use, so you could much sooner accuse them of "dictating" terminology preference onto fandom.

If you can't handle some competing translations, I highly recommend sticking exclusively to English or any other languages you may know for your entertainment needs.
I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying. I’m not talking about Kanzenshuu specifically. What I’m talking about is you have people that say, “it should be this because of this, this, and that” or it should be “that because of this this and this.” For example, クリリン. His name is probably the most transliterated differently among them all probably besides Bulma. There’s a thread on GameFaqs that his name should be Klilin because of Toriyama visiting a place and he was inspired by the culture and because of the Shaolin martial arts stuff, he said it should be Klilin. Well, there’s a similar spelling which is Klilyn but a fan wants the spelling to be Klilin over an official spelling like Kuririn, Klilyn, Clylyn, or Kulilin. For Tarble, people want his name to be spelled as simply as Table to keep the reference to vegetable or even Tahble (though officially by Toei or whoever spelled it as Tarble.) Same with the other OVA characters.

I’m not saying at all that Kanzenshuu is trying or making a movement to push their spellings upon others (kinda but not really.) Kanzenshuu is more than a “character spelling” site but a informative site that has insight on the character naming schemes and other stuff related to it. What I’m really talking about is more about people saying Apoule is wrong because it “doesn’t convey the pun as well as Appule” or Kulilin is wrong because “it’s a weird spelling” or “Toriyama doesn’t know English (Engrish)” when クリリン has nothing to do with knowing English. It’s a fantasy name.

Duo, I don’t think you’re getting where I’m coming from since you mentioned Crunchyroll but nothing I said is against using their spellings. Using Rumsshi is not a problem for me unless Japanese material use something different. Even then, if it’s official then it’s okay unless it doesn’t convey the pun but not too direct like Bluma or Blooma. Toriyama has shown with Tapion that he doesn’t like the names too direct and we can see that with Bulma and Kulilin (if it’s a pun)
Last edited by Meshack on Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:03 pm

If someone wants to spell the name "Klilin", more power to them.

I disagree for a few different reasons, but they're not "wrong". It's a perfectly fine transliteration of the name.

Again, this stuff is all on a case-by-case basis according to what you are looking to accomplish with the name spelling and what you have learned about the name's origin.
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Re: Romanized Spellings on Japanese Merchandise

Post by Meshack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:07 pm

VegettoEX wrote:If someone wants to spell the name "Klilin", more power to them.

I disagree for a few different reasons, but they're not "wrong". It's a perfectly fine transliteration of the name.

Again, this stuff is all on a case-by-case basis according to what you are looking to accomplish with the name spelling and what you have learned about the name's origin.
Yeah, nothing wrong with Klilin. It’s fine. I go more of the “official” route than anything else unless there isn’t one.

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