Is the break in formula the reason for Super hate?

[ABED]

Regardless, the magic is still gone.

But you just said you found magic in BoG?
Did you watch Super? Not all, but some episodes DO work IMO

And a blind squirrel occassionally finds a nut.

[PsionicWarrior]

And a blind squirrel occassionally finds a nut.

There you go,the magic lol

[ABED]

That's not magic, that's a blip. It's like GT. It has occasional moments of greatness, but it's not a great series.

[PsionicWarrior]

I wouldn't say 'like GT' because I think Super is OK on average while GT downright awful but that's a matter of opinion I guess lol

[Colonel Silver]

What break in formula? Goku getting his salad tossed by inferior enemies to fluff up the episode count? Or maybe you're referring to the self awareness Toei has gained about it's product, which they then use to manipulate its old viewers with contrived limp no substance nostalgia tugging moments?

I mean, you couldn't possibly be talking about the way the story progresses or the battles unfold. Those formulas are exactly the same, worse even.

[bigray]

I don't mind the nostalgia parts eg; Yamcha in his death pose. Piccolo jumping in front of gohan again. Bringing cells time machine back.

I'm not sure what they can do about the power level differences though, because that's what it's portraying with goku being the main character while the rest are in the background. They've finally tried out the quick power level gain bullshit with Cauli and kale, I don't like it and takes the heart out of the story.

Piccolo and gohan could have gone in the hyperbolic time chamber with vegeta (training separately though).

Something that has changed is Frieza. From Z he was the typical boss who was just strong. He's definitely improved his thought and attitude and I believe he will keep the show alive and make some interesting changes.

So what can be done? How could krilin or gohan or piccolo compete against topo or jiren? And make it believable

[Metalwario64]

What break in formula? Goku getting his salad tossed by inferior enemies to fluff up the episode count? Or maybe you're referring to the self awareness Toei has gained about it's product, which they then use to manipulate its old viewers with contrived limp no substance nostalgia tugging moments?

I mean, you couldn't possibly be talking about the way the story progresses or the battles unfold. Those formulas are exactly the same, worse even.

I'm pretty okay with Super right now, but all of the throwbacks and homages to past scenes and setups is very annoying, and I dislike all of the nostalgia pandering in modern entertainment as a whole lately, and I'm a guy who gets very nostalgic from time to time!

[dbs fanboy]

By potential, you mean what? It sounds more like people's expectations weren't met. A big issue with continuations and sequels is that people have their expectations of where the story is going and almost innevitably judge the story against what they have in their head, not the story on its own terms.

Like Future Trunks the genkidama like attack. Many think that as it makes no sense (because it doesn't), it's existence is only hurting the story with asspulls and power related inconsistences, an issue that could have been solved by making Goku be the one channeling energy, as it would have made sense in universe and thus not "ruin" the arc by that scene.

Why does it need to be rationalized so much? Trunks overcoming Black after all the heartache and turmoil he had caused, along with Sumitomo's sweeping music, was a powerful scene. The hope of the people along with Trunks' resolve combined to crush evil, at least in its physical form... I see it as a reflection of the human spirit, in all of its complexities. People often drive themselves nuts trying to reason everything out, but life is often mysterious. So, in a series full of cosmic martial arts and energy channeling, I don't think it's a stretch to think that maybe its characters still don't know everything there is to know about the power they wield, especially someone relatively young like Trunks.

As for Goku using the Genki Dama to defeat an enemy... Wow, never seen that before. Dragon Ball fans will complain about Super pandering to nostalgia but then expect the same shit over and over, I have a really hard time figuring out just what exactly they want from this show... Why can't Trunks land the finishing blow? Isn't it enough that Vegetto, "loosened the cap," so to speak?

Not only that, but Trunks technically didn't even win, which brings up another novel aspect of this arc; for once, Goku and friends simply could not overcome a villain and save the universe. Zamasu becomes evil itself, and Trunks' original timeline is completely wiped out by Zeno. This sets a precedent for the rest of the series that from here on out, no happy endings are guaranteed.

So you say it doesn't make sense, but the arc's climax doesn't "ruin" anything and is actually quite unique and satisfying within the grand scheme of Dragon Ball's story.

Actually, the arc wasn't ruined to me, in fact, i ended up loving the ending once i noticed the amount of symbolism it had. With my post i was just giving an example of what people that dislike super use to say about it.

And hell, even if i disliked the ending, it couldn't have ruined the arc. I mean, Black alone gives me more than one reason to love it.

[Colonel Silver]

What break in formula? Goku getting his salad tossed by inferior enemies to fluff up the episode count? Or maybe you're referring to the self awareness Toei has gained about it's product, which they then use to manipulate its old viewers with contrived limp no substance nostalgia tugging moments?

I mean, you couldn't possibly be talking about the way the story progresses or the battles unfold. Those formulas are exactly the same, worse even.

I'm pretty okay with Super right now, but all of the throwbacks and homages to past scenes and setups is very annoying, and I dislike all of the nostalgia pandering in modern entertainment as a whole lately, and I'm a guy who gets very nostalgic from time to time!

The father son galick gun in the Black Arc made me wince. It was stupid for so many reasons. To begin with how the HELL did it push back Merged Zamasu? That's like, shooting an elephant with an ant turd. You're overreacting Colonel it ain't so bad-- NO! NO, I'M NOT. Why the hell would Vegeta just use this technique that he hasn't used in eons with a person who never displayed knowledge of knowing the fucking move in the first place? That move got phased out. Trunks never saw him use the fucking thing. It's a hollow throwback to get people moist. Just paint these walls with my brains daddy-o. I can not even deal. Just give me some fucking context for how Trunks knows galick gun, why it's his signature technique all of a sudden at the very least. FUCK.

Edit: I just realized Trunks could have learned Galick Gun during his time with his father in the hyperbolic time chamber in the Cell arc. Still is fucking stupid. If it was Trunks' most favoritest special move (dada gabe me dis), why the hell did he never use it until now? I'll tell ya why. Cuz he didn't fucking know it.

It would have been more acceptable had it been Father Son Final Flash. Trunks' Heat Dome is basically a Final Flash variant, he doesn't have to whip it out of his ass, no harm, no foul. It still would be a fucking lame throwback though, don't get me wrong. Edit: Fuck that, there's no situation where this lame ass nostalgia tuggery would have been acceptable. Leave the past in the past, stop trying to catch that spark again. It was corny. It was nothing compared to Gohan's and Goku's father son beam clash. Invent something new.

Anyway, man, if I hear that Piccolo hops in front of Gohan to shield him one more time... if I have to have toei paint out their obvious bromance for me one more time.... I'm gonna lose my shit. I think I already lost it.

P.S.: I had to delete and repost, ran out of edits. I'm on a cellphone. If there's anymore errors in my post, it's gonna stay that way this time. (i lied)

[MaskedRider]

Trunks never saw him use the fucking thing. It's a hollow throwback to get people moist. Just paint these walls with my brains daddy-o. I can not even deal. Just give me some fucking context for how Trunks knows galick gun, why it's his signature technique all of a sudden at the very least. FUCK.

Edit: I just realized Trunks could have learned Galick Gun during his time with his father in the hyperbolic time chamber in the Cell arc. Still is fucking stupid. If it was Trunks' most favoritest special move (dada gabe me dis), why the hell did he never use it until now? I'll tell ya why. Cuz he didn't fucking know it.

[Colonel Silver]

Trunks never saw him use the fucking thing. It's a hollow throwback to get people moist. Just paint these walls with my brains daddy-o. I can not even deal. Just give me some fucking context for how Trunks knows galick gun, why it's his signature technique all of a sudden at the very least. FUCK.

Edit: I just realized Trunks could have learned Galick Gun during his time with his father in the hyperbolic time chamber in the Cell arc. Still is fucking stupid. If it was Trunks' most favoritest special move (dada gabe me dis), why the hell did he never use it until now? I'll tell ya why. Cuz he didn't fucking know it.

[img]snip[/img]

Is that cutaway actually part of the show? Forget it, doesn't matter. Even though I seem to have gotten stuck on that detail. that wasn't what I was really getting at.

It was a shitty homage to a great moment in Dragon Ball history, Goku and Gohan's Father Son Kamehameha. Father-Son Galick Gun was suppose to make you tingly and moist with nostalgia, shit left me chapped and flaky. Toei has to go out of their way to make the scene work and by doing so, shit on how threatening Zamasu is. Shit is more empty than my soul after sitting through an episode of Dragon Ball Super.

With Piccolo and Gohan taking shots for each other, its no longer heart warming. It makes them both look incompetent instead. They're putting in these meaningless throwbacks so they get a pass on boring fights and boring dialogue, they don't care how it effects the story or characters in the long run. They're trying to tug on those heartstrings for cheap.

...Fuck, dude, every time I think about shit like the Broly transformation homage in episode 93, I just wish I were roadkill. God damn. Dragonball Super everyone, serve my head on a platter. Ffuck.

[funrush]

I think it's the mischaracterization, shoddy animation, watered down tone, poor filler, and cheap throwbacks to Z stuff. The Goku Black arc, while I like bits of it, feels like a fanfic. And that's fine, cause a popcorn action show is what I expect from it, but some of the things they do feel like dangling shiny objects in front of the audience. Trunks's unexplained power boost is an example of this.

[bigray]

I don't think there's enough constructive criticism. I think it would help to come up with ideas (without sarcasm or being aggressive to the current formula.)

maybe tori is stuck and isn't sure where to take the show? Too risky to try something new, stick with the old way, that people already like.